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Are super-heavy tanks worthless currently in the face of premium ammo?


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EvilOnion #1 Posted 01 September 2019 - 10:16 AM

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Hey,

I started playing again recently and finally got the Mäuschen. Since everyone however is just spamming premium ammo my armor might just as well be cheese. A few years ago, when I played the VK 100.01 to unlock the Mäuschen, people had to play smart to get rid of a sidescraping VK 100.01 and had to flank, rush or target weakspots. Now, when I angle my turret my upper frontal plate gets penetrated... people don't even make an effort to target weakspots any more a lot of the times... I feel like it is not even worthwhile playing those tanks any more as long as the premium spam continues. Why has this changed so drastically? Are premium rounds simply an easy mode for the game that makes the game less fun for others?

 



Wintermute_1 #2 Posted 01 September 2019 - 10:40 AM

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They probably over armoured some tanks, now no one even contemplates regular ammo if youre in the same tier or lower. Stick a heavy spall liner on and you'll be rock solid vs arty..

Shivvering #3 Posted 01 September 2019 - 11:14 AM

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The way some of the super heavies are now armoured means you still have to hit weak-spots with premium ammo. Even then it can be tricky against well angled heavy tank drivers if the opposing tank has Premium APCR rather than HEAT.

 

There are also the WN8 warriors, who just load full gold and give zero effs. I still see Tier 10 TD's in Tier 8 battles spamming the 400+ pen shells around where literally no-one left on the team could bounce a regular round effectively. They may have fired all of their regular rounds already...they may just not bother carrying any.

 

I personally carry 30-40% premium in most of my Tier 8+ these days. Often bouncing 50% of fully aimed shots at weak-spots will cost you your tank and your team the game. I try to only use it when required, but if I am loaded to take a shot at a Maus and a Leo1 appears, more than happy to put a premium round through it.


Edited by Shivvering, 01 September 2019 - 11:15 AM.


Valdemare_2 #4 Posted 01 September 2019 - 11:18 AM

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U need premium ammo, u play A LOT low tier......... at -2 u need really premium or prepare to watch the game.  If they manage to give us tier -1 max or better, maybe they could nerf premium ammos. 

Dava_117 #5 Posted 01 September 2019 - 11:36 AM

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Are super-heavy tanks worthless currently in the face of premium ammo?

 

No, absolutely no. Superheavy, especially the newest one are one of the most forgiving class in the game. If you have a minimum amount of angling skills you can sustain a lot of incoming fire without losing much HP. I play plenty of superheavy and let me say, VK100.01P armour is hilariously strong! I can easily blok 2-3k damage in that thing, even against higher tier. And now that I have unlocked the top gun, it is starting to be totally OP!


Edited by Dava_117, 01 September 2019 - 12:25 PM.


vasilinhorulezz #6 Posted 01 September 2019 - 11:48 AM

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These are the results of WG listening to Steve's complains that his armor is not strong enough, because he can't just drive forward and bounce everything thrown at him while pew-pewing all opposition without a sweat, and overbuffed armor on all superheavies while slowly but steady removing weakspots from the game. Armor should be effective if used optimally and since this is not the case premium ammo will replace standard due to overbuffing armor and corridor map design. Sorry but a cupola that bounces 60% off the shots thrown at it is a bad game design and removes any skill from the game, VK has 220mm armor on the comander's hatch that can be up to 240mm effective is not a weakspot when most same tier heavies have less penetration that this, the tank is overperforming and WG refuses to do something about it, not to mention Ruski heavies without turret weakspots or a certain Russian tier VIII heavy with more effective armor that the tier X IS 7.

So tell me what should I do against a VK, stare at it to death?



Neodymium9 #7 Posted 01 September 2019 - 11:53 AM

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View PostEvilOnion, on 01 September 2019 - 10:16 AM, said:

Hey,

I started playing again recently and finally got the Mäuschen. Since everyone however is just spamming premium ammo my armor might just as well be cheese. A few years ago, when I played the VK 100.01 to unlock the Mäuschen, people had to play smart to get rid of a sidescraping VK 100.01 and had to flank, rush or target weakspots. Now, when I angle my turret my upper frontal plate gets penetrated... people don't even make an effort to target weakspots any more a lot of the times... I feel like it is not even worthwhile playing those tanks any more as long as the premium spam continues. Why has this changed so drastically? Are premium rounds simply an easy mode for the game that makes the game less fun for others?

 


The vk100 is way better tier for tier than mauschen,mauschen basically is designed to be a free xp sink,the armor is not reliable at all,even when you are top tier.

Just play a game a day,or hopefully not more than 2 to get the daily x2 and move on.

And yeah premium rounds compensate for knowledge of weakspots,sometimes.



Slyspy #8 Posted 01 September 2019 - 12:12 PM

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No they are not.

splash_time #9 Posted 01 September 2019 - 12:34 PM

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View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 01 September 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:

These are the results of WG listening to Steve's complains that his armor is not strong enough, because he can't just drive forward and bounce everything thrown at him while pew-pewing all opposition without a sweat, and overbuffed armor on all superheavies while slowly but steady removing weakspots from the game. Armor should be effective if used optimally and since this is not the case premium ammo will replace standard due to overbuffing armor and corridor map design. Sorry but a cupola that bounces 60% off the shots thrown at it is a bad game design and removes any skill from the game, VK has 220mm armor on the comander's hatch that can be up to 240mm effective is not a weakspot when most same tier heavies have less penetration that this, the tank is overperforming and WG refuses to do something about it, not to mention Ruski heavies without turret weakspots or a certain Russian tier VIII heavy with more effective armor that the tier X IS 7.

So tell me what should I do against a VK, stare at it to death?

 

Lol, i think WG should buff all tanks armor, and let's have a new battle mode called "peaceful wars(with no destroyed tanks)" 

And we'll all be happy :D

Edit: like 2018 football mode, no shell could pen, and armor just blocks the hits. :)


Edited by splash_time, 01 September 2019 - 12:39 PM.


4nt #10 Posted 01 September 2019 - 12:49 PM

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Mauschen is, as mentioned before in the thread, tier for tier worse than VK100. That makes it only solid tank.

Mauschen has few things that need to Be taken into consideration when playing. The cupola for first: it is roughly the same as VKs, but lower and wider. It also meets more consistently enemies that have enough pen to reliably punch through. It also is on the other hand side than VKs, requiring to reconsider old sidescrape spots.

Second: turret ring is open like VKs, but again, most change is in enemy composition. More accurate, more pen, more consistently. Maus has frontally small 'cover' to migitate that weakspot.

Third spot is the area of LFP. LFP itself is quite easy pen, but even when it is covered by rubble or building in sidescrape position, the front drive wheel region has easier spots to pen than VK or Maus as the side skirts are relatively shorter. Idk if I get this through in text and cannot use tanks.gg etc for a while.

In all the grind towards Maus I didn't fear goldspam or even arty (dropped rammer for SHSL) if I got into good position to use the sides. Ended with better WR than my average, and my crew doesn't even have sixth sense (probably My oldest crew around). Also slow reload made me consider my shots and helped me to bait shots to turret sides instead of eating them head on.

UrQuan #11 Posted 01 September 2019 - 01:54 PM

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Super-heavy tanks are still pretty viable in the current meta. This can be seen daily in battle, where heavily armored tanks tend to be a fairly common sight despite the liberal prem ammo usage. They just need some skill and knowledge to use properly, just like every other type of tank.

If you get a super-heavy with the thought of being an invulnerable box of steel on the battlefield, I got bad news for you. Those tanks don't exist out the box. But if you know your way around armor & how it all works & how to maximize it versus others, you can be that tank under certain circumstances & even prem ammo won't do much then.

The main reason people don't really consider weakspots anymore is because they got removed for the most part (viewport & machinegunport used to be classic weakspots. Cupola's are a mix sometimes they are sometimes not, so not too reliable to shoot either (unless you know by memory which ones got a soft hittable cupola). LFP & front drive wheels are becoming less & less of a weakspot as well these days, making people consider firing at those weakspots less as well.

 

Also have a small armored tank guide by me, some stuff might be obvious, but never hurts to repeat important things;

 

UrQuan's armor guide (source: VK:100 prank tank?)

 

Armor does NOT exist to make people immune to damage. Such approach is bad for the game. Armor exists to make you more resistant to damage, so that the gun with 220mm pen (T8 ballpark pen, some have less, some have more) has trouble penning you, not that you are impossible to be damaged by it.

Edit: following armor values are for the VK 100, as this guide was a response to the 'weak' armor of the VK 100 in the original thread...

Because people have trouble with armor & it never seems enough (serious: 200 mm UFP armor, 230mm turret front, 220mm rounded cupola, triple spaced 100mm tracks with 130mm side armor & 170/160mm turret sides for T8, that's insane levels of armor for a T8), have a short armor guide:

 

Proper armor usage follows these guidelines:

- Don't get hit: No matter what you drive, this is paramount. Don't get hit when you don't need to.

- Bait shots: Peek out some tough piece of armor, you'd be surprised how many people take shots at it. Once done, roll out that gun & answer in kind!

- Angle up: When you have to expose yourself to hostile fire: maximize your armor; it reduces the hurt greatly (notice, I said 'reduce' not 'immunize;)

- Don't do bad trades! If there's a ton of tanks aiming at you & not tricked by your baiting, don't try & shoot for 400 damage when you can get 1000 damage in return. 

- Know your enemy guns: An IS-6 has no hope penning you if you play your KV-4/VK 100 properly, while that Borsig will remain a serious issue when he's aimed at you & waiting for you to come out.

- Don't tease the Deathstars (Jagpanzer E-100 & British FV TD's) No really, don't do it. It's not worth it.

- Don't go alone: Way too many people think their heavy armor tank is a solo pwn machine. Nope it is not: bring friends/teammates. make sure you got support in back. When you do: it's rocking time. When you don't? Go defensive, punish the enemy for even thinking to approach you. You want a solo pwn machine? Get IS-3 or any other generalist tank & get good at the game. Armored tanks are not it (But WG sure as hell tries lately, not a good evolution imo). 

 

Way too few people do this & just end up dead with barely any damage blocked in their armored tank. Then complain armor is useless. Then we end up with tanks like Maus & jap heavies because people want armored tanks without the skill to use them. Then act shocked when nobody wants to fight these tanks, resulting in some very dumb team deployments (because no-one likes to be Type 5 food, or plant shell after shell in a Maus for 0 effect)

You want a tank that can hold of enemy armies while blasting your way to the top? Get an armored tank, learn how to use said armor. Learn the pen mechanics of every type of shell & use/abuse that. Learn which situations work & which don't. Look at team compositions & act accordingly. 

And when you do? Start rocking. Take control of your lane, either by holding it, or by pushing it. Deny the enemy passage/control. Do that and you already pushed up your winchances greatly in your armored tank.

Armored tanks exist to take control over a lane/corridor/contested area. Mobile tanks exist to exert control over the wider map. Choose wisely which concept you like more. Any tank that combines heavy armor with mobility will be OP because it will be able to exert control over a wider map & dominate in the area/ corridor / lane that needs it the most.

 

Maus (260mm armor thickest) vs 300mm to 340mm penetration shells

 

Last note: prem ammo is in need of a revamp imo, but it must come with an armor revamp as well in such case, lest super-heavies in skilled hands dominate battles with ease & nobody wants that.


Edited by UrQuan, 02 September 2019 - 06:04 PM.


NoobySkooby #12 Posted 01 September 2019 - 02:28 PM

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I have some of the super heavies mentioned, and yes sometimes I do wonder about the suppose armour etc, although without any shadow of a doubt,the VK 100 is the absolutely best looking of them all,sure as hell wish the Mauschen and the mighty Maus (not in my hands obviously) whilst I appreciate UrQuans guide on armour, how do you put all this to good use on an open map, you choose to your tank, hope to do your best in an urban environment,press battle, and to your horror, get sand river?

 

I know 4 tankers and a dog does a series of how to play LT's on any given map, but I sure wish someone would do the same for heavies on any given map, may seem a crazy idea but at least it would be helpful to most average potatoes, any of you guys do streaming out there?

 

So much potential.



Oldewolfe #13 Posted 01 September 2019 - 02:44 PM

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I'm Cheap so I still Prefer Standard Shells and Flanking over Premium Shells....     However, back in the Day, Flanking was a Lot Easier because people kept Reds Lit and Scouts, well, they Scouted.....       Now, you Flank you get Drilled for 90% of your Hitpoints because you can't see anything and if you Don't Move you'll get Overrun from YOUR Flank....

 

The 2 Key sometimes Negates the NEED to Flank, but I also hate Waiting to Whittle the guy Down thru the Non Pens and Bounces.....         If it's a Choice of Take the Hit going for a Side Shot vs Risking a Bounce with a Premium Shell, I'll take the Hit to get Close and make it go Thru....         

 

Yah, you can still get Wrecked Hard that way, did it this AM in my T34 vs a 215B Heavy....      But when I Died, so did He, and it wasn't long before the E75, T30, and Conway with him all Followed him to the Garage....     Fair Trade I call that and a Win for Our side as well....



UrQuan #14 Posted 01 September 2019 - 04:19 PM

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View PostNoobySkooby, on 01 September 2019 - 02:28 PM, said:

I have some of the super heavies mentioned, and yes sometimes I do wonder about the suppose armour etc, although without any shadow of a doubt,the VK 100 is the absolutely best looking of them all,sure as hell wish the Mauschen and the mighty Maus (not in my hands obviously) whilst I appreciate UrQuans guide on armour, how do you put all this to good use on an open map, you choose to your tank, hope to do your best in an urban environment,press battle, and to your horror, get sand river?

 

 

Sand river is an interesting map in this regard. If you got an armored tank with a heavily armored turret (Lowe/Conqueror by example), most of the map is open to you for play, you'll just reach it slower then other tank classes in most cases. Note that alot of armored hulldown tanks tend to have good viewrange, so you can double as spotter when working the frontline on such maps.

This also works for Prohorovka & other open maps, they tend to be great for hulldown armored tanks. Just keep that hull behind the ridges/hills.

 

For classic heavy armored tanks like Maus & similar, it is trickier. On sand river, I go valley with such tanks, because on any other part I usually end up either in awkward positions or an XP pinata. While the valley in itself contributes nearly nothing to map control, it does offer a ready access into the heart of the enemy spawn/flag location (and TD spots), allowing you to disrupt enemy positioning (mainly of sniping TD's), by pretending to be a viable target to shoot. Angle up, sidescrape & show your angled sides as you ride out & get enemy attention.

Main goal is to get as many enemy attention as you can, without getting damaged in the process. If the attention-grabbing is failing (because nobody is shooting you), you could advance (because people aren't paying attention to you) to get much better shooting positions & keep enemies lit up more permanently.

In the end this can help the team greatly as the other, more important flanks now get less enemy guns pointed at them (or get some bonus targets when you lit up some TD on his spot in the back), giving your team more of a chance there.

 

Main issue is of course you're dependant on the team this way, like any slow heavy armored tank. Mobility-based tanks can lessen their dependency on the team by going where they are needed best. Slow armored tanks cannot do this, so they got to find other ways to tip the balance in their team favour, either by getting as much as possible enemy attention so it becomes the place they're needed most, or alternatively, if low enemy presence, do a hard push, take some damage in turn to get a good forward position for you & the team that really helps taking control of a lane/map. The map Abbey is a very good training ground for this (especially the 1-2 lane) as it has several nice intermediary defensive spots in case you did miscalculate your approach.

 

Step 1: getting the enemy attention: sometimes it works too good...

 


Edited by UrQuan, 01 September 2019 - 04:26 PM.


Balc0ra #15 Posted 01 September 2019 - 04:27 PM

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It's the circle of life in WOT. First people complained that gold ammo makes armor usless, so they gave us super heavies. Then everyone complained that armor makes gold ammo nessesary. So they buffed normal ammo on some guns. Then everyone complained that armor is useless again....

 

But gold ammo still doesn't indicate 100% chance to deal damage. On some tanks with flat thick armor, HEAT will eat you up head-on. Then then I don't see the point of pushing it. And rather tease with side armor to make their HEAT detonate early on tracks etc. Or wiggle my spaced armor if I have it. And trade when they reload. Tho ofc, that's not always gonna work either. In the end, it's about doing the least crappy trades when you see the full gold spam in a HT.



TANKOPPRESSION #16 Posted 01 September 2019 - 07:42 PM

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View PostEvilOnion, on 01 September 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

Hey,

I started playing again recently and finally got the Mäuschen. Since everyone however is just spamming premium ammo my armor might just as well be cheese. A few years ago, when I played the VK 100.01 to unlock the Mäuschen, people had to play smart to get rid of a sidescraping VK 100.01 and had to flank, rush or target weakspots. Now, when I angle my turret my upper frontal plate gets penetrated... people don't even make an effort to target weakspots any more a lot of the times... I feel like it is not even worthwhile playing those tanks any more as long as the premium spam continues. Why has this changed so drastically? Are premium rounds simply an easy mode for the game that makes the game less fun for others?

 

Sounds like a RNG bias .



LIL_Veky #17 Posted 01 September 2019 - 08:17 PM

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View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 01 September 2019 - 11:48 AM, said:

These are the results of WG listening to Steve's complains that his armor is not strong enough, because he can't just drive forward and bounce everything thrown at him while pew-pewing all opposition without a sweat, and overbuffed armor on all superheavies while slowly but steady removing weakspots from the game. Armor should be effective if used optimally and since this is not the case premium ammo will replace standard due to overbuffing armor and corridor map design. Sorry but a cupola that bounces 60% off the shots thrown at it is a bad game design and removes any skill from the game, VK has 220mm armor on the comander's hatch that can be up to 240mm effective is not a weakspot when most same tier heavies have less penetration that this, the tank is overperforming and WG refuses to do something about it, not to mention Ruski heavies without turret weakspots or a certain Russian tier VIII heavy with more effective armor that the tier X IS 7.

So tell me what should I do against a VK, stare at it to death?

Mauerbrecher/vk168 has those weakspots, guess what?  people hate it and its a weak tank



EvilOnion #18 Posted 01 September 2019 - 08:51 PM

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I feel like some people misunderstood me. I don't think the armor of the Mäuschen should be buffed or anything, it is good and has 2 destinct weakspots at the front. Usually one of them is always accessible to hit. So an enemy heavy tank of the same tier that is facing the Mäuschen head on has the possibility of dealing damage with regular rounds. (this does not apply to the VK 100.01, as the cupola is quite strong and tier 8 heavy tanks with less than 200mm of penetration struggle)

However, when you simply switch to premium rounds and suddenly good armor becomes worthless, because a WZ-111-4 has 340mm of pen instead of 244mm and no longer needs to aim properly, it feels like a bad mechanic.

 

The design back in the days was to trade away everything to maximise hit points and armor for super-heavy tanks. But when one of the two key strengths of the tank is just negated by premium ammo it feels odd. I can't negate the camo of a light tank by using premium ammo or any other mechanic. I can't negate the gun handling of a medium tank or td. Armor is the only mechanic where there is an easy mode for countering it it seems.

 



SuNo_TeSLa #19 Posted 01 September 2019 - 09:10 PM

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Generally superheavies with rounded armor is still Good, those with flat aren't, just my two cents :)

24doom24 #20 Posted 01 September 2019 - 09:48 PM

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Just sidescrape. 




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