Jump to content


WT auf Pz. lV + WZ-111G FT


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

TungstenHitman #1 Posted 02 September 2019 - 09:50 AM

    Major General

  • Player
  • 30631 battles
  • 5,765
  • Member since:
    08-28-2016

Hi guys,

 

So I've been grinding both these tier9 TD's at the moment, free xp'd my way past the St.Useless and the tier Chinese whatever that's called and did the Borsig grind the old fashioned way, well... not really I mean with a premium account(from missions) I could apply the X3 xp 5 times each day and so it was fast enough. Borsig btw... why does a tank with no armor at all and a gun that's nothing special when held against the likes of a SkorpionG and SU 130 PM have the same p/w ratio as a Type 5? Any reason why a paper TD with an average gun has to be encumbered with a complete inability to get anywhere or relocate etc? I don't get it. There's something disturbing about witnessing heavy tanks of the same tier and packing about as much alpha racing passed and away from my open top delicate tank with half the hp and no armor while they all have stronk armor. Anyway that's behind me now and we move on. 

 

So the WT, which gun I ask you? They're very expensive xp sinks so I want to make it the right choice. I'm guessing the popular answer here is the 12.8 but both these guns come with pro's and cons. I'm finding the WT grind awkward and have swapped between both guns a lot! lol. They appear to both have viable reasons to play either and yet both are awkward and encumbered by having bizarre depression and elevation limitations separate to each other, a set of limitations that carry on to their upgraded variants.

 

12.8 - The good -The more reliable workhorse, aims faster, more accurate dispersion, faster shell velocity, better pen. 

12.8 - The bad - Frontally gets only -2 deg gun dep, that is really atrociously bad. -5 deg from the rear so I guess a player is supposed to reverse this tank to engage so that's not really practical and seamless combat as a player would like. Oh, while using rear facing combat for -5 gun dep, now the elevation gets encumbered heavily to just +14 degrees so it's just an awkward son of a gun really isn't it? You can imagine how those variable depressions and elevations play out in the heat of battle on the irregular surfaces where you have an enemy tank moving this way or approaching from that way etc and you're trying to get your gun on it. Other downsides are you have 560 alpha which is very good but not amazing when compared to the 750 alpha option albeit a more reliable damage dealer and I think finally the last downside to this gun is that it's massively heavier than the derp gun and hits your already not so great p/w ratio by 1.2 which is pretty bad on a tank that's already slow, again made of paper and really can't afford to be any slower for both getting to locations and getting away etc.

 

15cm - The good - 750 alpha instead of 560 or 490 as the case is for me with both stock guns only. Ok it's not twice the damage but it's still pretty meaty and because it's also so much lighter I used this to grind the tracks since I could mount this gun and still use all 3 equipment slots without the tracks while I could only carry 2 piece's of equipment with the 12.8. But we're not talking about stock grinds here lets focus on fully upgraded tanks and which gun to go with first. Here's the deal with the derp gun though. There are lots small city maps like Ensk etc where you are going to most likely take a shot for making a shot especially since this tank is not really agile or quick to get out of the way of things but it's still possible so on maps like this you won't really have the opportunity to safely make many shots and I was happy to bag around 2.2k - 3k dmg on a city map for just making 3-4 shots whereas with the 12.8 I would have had to work a lot harder for it in the same situation or been killed within that same amount of combat having made about the same amount of shots but only having maybe 1-1.5k dmg. I did about 7k dmg in one battle with my stock derp gun just sailing HEAT shells onto big fat meaty tanks and it's a lower risk playstyle for sure of just making that one big shot then taking cover until you go unnoticed again which is about as long as it takes for your reload to happen so their is a good relationship between the time it takes to reload and time it takes to be ignored by enemy tanks... most the time.

     It also "boasts" an improved -4 gun dep frontally which is still trash but twice as good or twice as less trashy than the 12.8 and it has -5 gun dep around the sides and rear. On the flip side of that it only has +15 gun elevation around the sides which is again, awkward as foch when sniping from hills and ridges so neither gun is really strong in terms of having a nice balance in gun elevation or dep and it has cost me on several occasions. Another positive for the derp is it's a much lighter gun so keeps thank as mobile as it can be and get's you to places faster and away faster etc, like I said, this isn't a tank that can ever really afford to be last to the party or hang about on a failing flank etc. Also, a tank charging your position, if it's a tank with 700 hp, if you're packing the 12.8 you die, if you're packing the derp, he dies and you fight on. 

The downsides of the derp are many of course. While it has the big alpha of course landing your shot is a lot more challenging and the top spec of the 12.8 gets 1200+ shell velocity and SHOULD theoretically become a lot more reliable and easier to hit targets than the derp and will come into it's own on big open maps a lot more than a shotgun. Aim time is slower, dispersion is worse and reload is slower. 

 

So which gun then? Is there a "correct" option, or is it personal playstyle preference? 

 

Moving onto the WZ-111G FT

 

Ok, I used free xp to zip passed the tier8 trashy looking thingy and as of now, I have a fully upgraded WZ-111G FT in all its "glory". Right, so how the hell are we supposed to play this tank? I have absolutely no idea, everything I tried, this tank just failed hard at. Here's the deal with this tank, it barely hits 20kph, takes an age to actually achieve that speed so you have to pick a side, forget any other notion you just don't have the speed or agility to relocate 99% of the time so it's an all the eggs in one basket sort of tank(God I hate slow tanks so much give me a Leopard or a Standard B any day of the week). So ok we've established it plods along like a Maus or one of those things but here's the deal, it doesn't have armor like a Type5 sooooooooooooo what are we supposed to do with it? Snipe from the back lol?? If this is the case then just play the much more mobile German WT with the 750 alpha gun and deal just as much damage right? Only with the German you have a turret and while not a race car, at least SOME bit of mobility, the WZ has none. It also traverses about on parity with the Titanic and we all know what happened with the Titanic when it was asked to turn slightly.

 

Then there's the gun. Ok, Chinese tanks are known for having donkey guns with big alpha most the time. But that's the thing, it has 750 alpha, that's pretty nice, but it's not amazing jaw droppingly big is it? and it just never seems to want to hit it's target and pen. It either misses because the enemy tank dared to move a couple of pixels or it hits a track or it's 290 standard pen just straight up doesn't pen for some odd reason.

 

So we've established it's horribly slow, turning is pathetic, acceleration is God awful, the armor is terrible and the gun is crude and loose. So... what is it then? what is this tank supposed to be? If it's supposed to be some heavy armored bunker assault TD like a Tortoise it simply isn't, it doesn't have armor anywhere close on that I believe me I tried many times hull down and angles back at maximum gun dep on city maps to try and hold a corner exposing just my gun and well angled hull to trade against heavies and other TD's... not one shot did it bounce. Because they used premium ammo? So what it they did, could you use premium ammo to dig out a hull down IS-7 etc? no, so that's not an argument to say "if they had used standard ammo blah blah" ammo is ammo, it has a big weak chin on it so if I have gone to the trouble of hiding the lower plate and even putting extra lean angle on my tank to increase it's slope thickness value, then if this thing is supposed to be an armored assault TD, then premium ammo shouldn't bother it anymore than it would an IS-7... but then again maybe this is not what this TD is supposed to be? But then why is it so slow? I don't understand this tank, can you guys explain how and what it's supposed to do? And yes, I had one of those 1 in 100 battles where all the stars aligned and 6 or 7k dmg but that was just one of those and NOT how it is most battles. 

 

Thanks all, and if you read all of it, you that was impressive by today's "tldr" standards! :) Typo's a plenty, you get the points and questions made anyway I'm sure. 

      



jack_timber #2 Posted 02 September 2019 - 10:08 AM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 40279 battles
  • 3,243
  • Member since:
    07-26-2014

I find the T9  Chinese TD exactly as you describe, only time it will bounce any shots is if they hit the mantlet, just about unlocked T10 but maybe not buy. Same gun as T9, loads a little faster and a shade more armour and mobility.

TBH I find the T8 more 'fun'.



Jumping_Turtle #3 Posted 02 September 2019 - 10:08 AM

    Lieutenant General

  • Player
  • 69352 battles
  • 7,508
  • [CNUT] CNUT
  • Member since:
    10-15-2013

Am at the WZ also as one of my last grinds. I dont find the gun that bad to be honest. It is the speed, or lack of that, that is the main problem I have with the tank.

Armorwise it is a coinflip. One battle everything that hits you is bouncing and the next battle everything pens.

 

But the 290+ pen in the standard shells is good and it never fials to put a smile on my face when hitting someone for 800+



Dava_117 #4 Posted 02 September 2019 - 10:17 AM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 22489 battles
  • 4,946
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    12-17-2014

Can't talk about the WT as paper ambush TD is the complete opposite of my playstyle.

 

About the WZ TD, I think it's quite bad. One of those useless tanks from Murazor era. Use AP and you will fail, change to premium and punch trought. And the other way around, use HEAT and you get 395 pen at tier 9. 

I wouldn't really advice you to keep the chinese TD line.

Want armour, get USSR armoured line or E3 line.

Want mobility and same alpha, 704 with its BL-10 are more reliable, while being more mobile.

No one needed or wanted those TDs on EU, so I still can't understand why they had to add those completely fictional tanks...



Thejagdpanther #5 Posted 02 September 2019 - 11:15 AM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 37277 battles
  • 4,796
  • [TKBS] TKBS
  • Member since:
    07-16-2012

For the WT
Of course there is no thing like "correct gun" it's just something personal...

 

...and personally the gun constraints of the 150mm made me chose for the 128.
The main problem is that you have to move and act quickly and 90% of time you are behind a corner with only the rear of the tank out: with the 150mm, you will not believe me how many times the ground is curved in a such way where you cant aim the target and you have to take stupid positions to fire a shot that without accurate aiming will bounce.

 

128                                                                             150

 

Yes, sometimes is extremely fun hit for 800+dmg unsuspecting targets but on the long run the reliability of the 128mm come in handy.
The speed of the bullet is also a +1 for the 128.

The line end here, so if you like the tonk and you want to keep it of course try both, but for the love of grind stay with the 128.
Imho.
 



HaZardeur #6 Posted 02 September 2019 - 11:40 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Beta Tester
  • 37187 battles
  • 1,634
  • Member since:
    08-14-2010
For the WT its pretty easy.... if you willing to invest into prem ammo use the 15cm gun even tho the 128cm is more reliable.

Richthoffen #7 Posted 02 September 2019 - 11:49 AM

    Major

  • Player
  • 30046 battles
  • 2,581
  • [MS-] MS-
  • Member since:
    12-23-2011
only have the WT, 128 mm is most times reliable, get in position and show your back to the enemy for that much needed extra gun depression, with for a full shrunken aim circle and do not overstretch frontline is not a good place to be unless in late game you're hunting  wounded loners, the speed and full rotating turret combined with enough hp allows for hit and run late game

splash_time #8 Posted 02 September 2019 - 11:54 AM

    Staff Sergeant

  • Player
  • 12847 battles
  • 406
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    02-20-2018

WZ is slow + pen and damage.

Grille is mobility and no armor.

For WT use the gun with 560 alpha (idk the gun calibre) and enjoy it if you want to reach T10 as fast as possible. If not then go for second gun with 750 damage, it worth it at tier 9.

 

11:00 Added after 5 minute

View PostDava_117, on 02 September 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

Can't talk about the WT as paper ambush TD is the complete opposite of my playstyle.

 

About the WZ TD, I think it's quite bad. One of those useless tanks from Murazor era. Use AP and you will fail, change to premium and punch trought. And the other way around, use HEAT and you get 395 pen at tier 9. 

I wouldn't really advice you to keep the chinese TD line.

Want armour, get USSR armoured line or E3 line.

Want mobility and same alpha, 704 with its BL-10 are more reliable, while being more mobile.

No one needed or wanted those TDs on EU, so I still can't understand why they had to add those completely fictional tanks...

 

Interesting for me, thus Chinese thanks are pretty good, but not everyone liking them. I myself going to get wz 5A in next couple of weeks.

Anyway, Chinese TDs are just extra, they have armor, but it doesn't work most of the time, angel it a bit and the sides will become cheese. Second thing, they are Chinese, people look at them as real life Chinese products. :D


Edited by splash_time, 02 September 2019 - 12:00 PM.


SuperOlsson #9 Posted 02 September 2019 - 12:14 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 23919 battles
  • 1,205
  • [E-5OM] E-5OM
  • Member since:
    08-07-2012
I'm grinding the WT myself right now and have tried both guns, I find the 12.8 (560 dmg one) a lot more reliable and is now my gun of choice, since I find it a lot better at consistently dealing out damage. However, there are times I wished I had the 750 alpha one, when you get maps like Paris, himmelsdorf and Lakeville, where opportunities are more scarce and you have to make the most out of each peek. Also i don't have much troubles with the depression as I try to always peek out with my butt first showing the side at 90 degrees. That way you don't get tracked and have your engine destroyed at the same time. I had some fun with the 750 derp but switched back after a series of games where I missed most of my shots in it.

Dava_117 #10 Posted 02 September 2019 - 12:38 PM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 22489 battles
  • 4,946
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    12-17-2014

View Postsplash_time, on 02 September 2019 - 11:54 AM, said:

 

Interesting for me, thus Chinese thanks are pretty good, but not everyone liking them. I myself going to get wz 5A in next couple of weeks.

Anyway, Chinese TDs are just extra, they have armor, but it doesn't work most of the time, angel it a bit and the sides will become cheese. Second thing, they are Chinese, people look at them as real life Chinese products. :D

 

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Chinese HTs and MTs. They were, at least, designed or sketched. But those TDs have been made up by Kong Zong. And baddly I would say.



TungstenHitman #11 Posted 02 September 2019 - 12:51 PM

    Major General

  • Player
  • 30631 battles
  • 5,765
  • Member since:
    08-28-2016

View PostSuperOlsson, on 02 September 2019 - 11:14 AM, said:

I'm grinding the WT myself right now and have tried both guns, I find the 12.8 (560 dmg one) a lot more reliable and is now my gun of choice, since I find it a lot better at consistently dealing out damage. However, there are times I wished I had the 750 alpha one, when you get maps like Paris, himmelsdorf and Lakeville, where opportunities are more scarce and you have to make the most out of each peek. Also i don't have much troubles with the depression as I try to always peek out with my butt first showing the side at 90 degrees. That way you don't get tracked and have your engine destroyed at the same time. I had some fun with the 750 derp but switched back after a series of games where I missed most of my shots in it.

 

Ya I think that sums it up and I suspect that sense will prevail and I'll go with the improved 12.8 for the sake of the grind to the gorilla which is a T10 I most definitely want and reason I'm grinding this line, which isn't true for most grinds as I generally stay away from T10 since I find the MM at T10 is pretty limited and very of the T9 isn't that much down on performance. Not the case for the Grill, it's notably better than the T9 with no wonky depression or elevations, excellent p/w and instead of having to chose alpha vs performance the T10 option just takes both and creates a big alpha high performance gun that hits for the same alpha as the derp but with the shell speed and even increased aim time and accuracy over the 12.8. What a nice T10 that should be... I hope anyway! I also have that funky roll-cage skin from Christmas drops. 

 

I'll be saving myself nearly 65k xp by not grinding both guns so I'd better make sure I go with the sensible option even though there's just something beyond satisfying killing a full hp SkorpG with one shot of the HE derp gun lol. Best €40 he ever spent lol! "Dad! some guys cheating!" ahahaha! 

 

Plus, I could be wrong but I think the gain with the upgraded derp gun is arguably marginal, the pen increase is certainly nice but it's pretty much a HEAT or HE chucking gun a lot of the time so if I wanted some lols I could always select the stock derp for the odd battle whereas the 12.8 gets a notable increase in performance with shell speed and a standard pen that's reliable looking for a lot of targets.

 

https://tanks.gg/compare/wt-auf-pz-iv?l=211126&t=wt-auf-pz-iv%7Ewt-auf-pz-iv_011120%7Ewt-auf-pz-iv_111123



Isharial #12 Posted 02 September 2019 - 01:01 PM

    Major

  • Player
  • 23275 battles
  • 2,627
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    12-19-2015

cant say much on the WT line.. wanted one before but could never push myself to do it. instead I got a Chinese td.... :hiding:

 

funnily enough, the TX in the china line isn't bad, and the upper structure can bounce some shots if your hulldown, though its not immune, far from it. its also slow.. uphill isn't good and neither is offroad, but atleast you got the gun which is very very nice. 

TIX did kind of work for me, but I played it expecting the armour to work so if I revisit it in time, i'd probably play it completely differently

 

 

between the WT line and the china line? id say the WT line is more in the meta.. because of the turret and the mobility really



WhoCares01 #13 Posted 02 September 2019 - 01:09 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 21395 battles
  • 741
  • Member since:
    04-21-2015

Did you know..? The tier 9 Waffle gets the same top engine as the tier 5 Toaster!

Mahlzeit!


Edited by WhoCares01, 02 September 2019 - 01:10 PM.


Balc0ra #14 Posted 02 September 2019 - 01:38 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 72848 battles
  • 20,704
  • [WALL] WALL
  • Member since:
    07-10-2012

View PostThejagdpanther, on 02 September 2019 - 11:15 AM, said:

...and personally the gun constraints of the 150mm made me chose for the 128.

 

Back when the line was new for a few patches. The 128 had 75 degrees to each side iirc, and the 15 had 60. So none of the guns came 90 degrees over the side to even reverse out and fire. And I hated grinding it back in the day with the maps in rotation then. It was horrible on maps like North West and Pearl River if the enemy was aggressive. Tbh I've not played it with the wider archs. Been thinking of giving it a new go for ages.

 

View PostJumping_Turtle, on 02 September 2019 - 10:08 AM, said:

Am at the WZ also as one of my last grinds. I dont find the gun that bad to be honest. It is the speed, or lack of that, that is the main problem I have with the tank.

Armorwise it is a coinflip. One battle everything that hits you is bouncing and the next battle everything pens.

 

But the 290+ pen in the standard shells is good and it never fials to put a smile on my face when hitting someone for 800+

 

Armor was more unreliable than reliable for me. As in mostly when you were top tier it kinda worked. Tho the gun, unlike the 704 is actually a bit more reliable. But 704 is mobile too, so it makes up for it. But it's like a Churchill GC at tier 9. Amazing gun, but terrible platform. Speed, traverse and armor. Only good thing about it was the mantle.

 



LordSkyFury #15 Posted 02 September 2019 - 02:22 PM

    Sergeant

  • Player
  • 16502 battles
  • 262
  • [R_D1] R_D1
  • Member since:
    03-30-2014
I played with both 12.8 and 15 cm guns on WT and 12.8 is much better choice. The combination of great accuracy and high penetration values on both standard and gold shells alongside with excellent shell velocity values makes 12.8 cm gun pleasure to play with.

sokolicc #16 Posted 02 September 2019 - 03:03 PM

    Staff Sergeant

  • Player
  • 30923 battles
  • 338
  • [OXIDE] OXIDE
  • Member since:
    04-14-2016
3-marked WT with derp gun. In those steamrolls i am facing last year or so you usually have chance to make 4-5 shots per game, with some assistance along the way.
Derp gun allowed me to make it work.
Shell velocity is trash, though, but there is some odd satisfaction when you see slow, fat shell looping onto other tank and removing 40-50% of it's HP.

Second one, obviously, is better.
About 12.8... I tried few battles 560 alpha one.
It was nice in first battle, was hitting everything (Sand river map), i made 6-7k. Hitting unbelievable shots, tracking shots, criticals etc...
And after that barely 2.5k dmg per game.
So i switched back to derp gun and fun was there again. 
Obviously, you have no depression frontally, no elevation when aiming at the back. Was weird, i missed a lot of shots because of that, while 12.8 is basically anti-aircraft gun which can elevate to the moon, around the map and poke it's own tank in the a$$.

So, i am all for 15cm 246/334 pen gun. :D
Unless you hit me in the battle. :D

NUKLEAR_SLUG #17 Posted 02 September 2019 - 03:30 PM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 34085 battles
  • 4,415
  • [FISHY] FISHY
  • Member since:
    06-13-2015

WT you pretty much need to position backwards to get any useful gun depression. It's OK once you get used to doing it. 128mm is the more reliable gun since you'll generally be doing most your shooting at range. I tried the big gun but found it to be too derpy.

 

WZ I find to be a good tank. Its a little slow but armour seems OK and it has a very nice gun with excellent HEAT and HE shells. It's my go to tank for fun times derping. 



TungstenHitman #18 Posted 02 September 2019 - 10:07 PM

    Major General

  • Player
  • 30631 battles
  • 5,765
  • Member since:
    08-28-2016

View Postsokolicc, on 02 September 2019 - 02:03 PM, said:

3-marked WT with derp gun. In those steamrolls i am facing last year or so you usually have chance to make 4-5 shots per game, with some assistance along the way.
Derp gun allowed me to make it work.
Shell velocity is trash, though, but there is some odd satisfaction when you see slow, fat shell looping onto other tank and removing 40-50% of it's HP.

Second one, obviously, is better.
About 12.8... I tried few battles 560 alpha one.
It was nice in first battle, was hitting everything (Sand river map), i made 6-7k. Hitting unbelievable shots, tracking shots, criticals etc...
And after that barely 2.5k dmg per game.
So i switched back to derp gun and fun was there again. 
Obviously, you have no depression frontally, no elevation when aiming at the back. Was weird, i missed a lot of shots because of that, while 12.8 is basically anti-aircraft gun which can elevate to the moon, around the map and poke it's own tank in the a$$.

So, i am all for 15cm 246/334 pen gun. :D
Unless you hit me in the battle. :D

 

Ya I totally agree. Sadly I went with the sniper but I will very much miss and at the same time regret not getting the improved derp. If I get to the Grille a bit faster with more consistent battles then it will be worth it but I will surely miss banging tanks for 750 dmg in the mean time and there are so many small maps, city maps and maps that are basically just straight corridors for heavies to slowly rumble along where the derp will be very much in its element. Here's 2 battles of this evening, one of the last with the stock derp and one of the early battles with the sniper. Just 6 shots with the derp to turn the battle on its head and end what looked like an unstoppable enemy drive to our cap during a battle in which I was mostly anonymous up to that point. That sort of alpha and HEAT pen combo just has the ability to knock a team dead while the second battle is with the upgraded sniper rifle and I had to make 11 strikes for not much more. So I'd definitely be of the opinion that the derp(would we call this a derp gun btw? It kinda is in many ways?) very much has its place and of course the upgraded version has reasonable shell velocity to feel more like a normal type of gun I'd imagine, sort of like the WZ-111G FT gun. I don't think a player would be wrong to go either gun. Always nice to have a tank with genuinely viable gun options.

 






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users