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Shooting over hilltops


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GeneralJock #1 Posted 02 September 2019 - 06:32 PM

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Can anyone help me out with what I'm missing in the game mechanic here. I've searched around, and can't find any other reason than I am ultra-sucking. I haven't notice this before, and I'm not sure why, it may just be tanks I'm playing currently.

I have a couple of tanks with excellent gun depression, and therefore happy to try and exchange fire around a slope or hilltop. But I'm finding repeatedly that while I cannot see any part of the enemy tank at all - not even the periscope - they land a shot in my turret.

I have found only one clear example of a graphics bug, where I shot clean through a rock and took out a tank. I don't think it is widespread on the maps, or is it?

I have found it to be the case on several maps, and I just don't get it. Surely I need to be able to get my crosshairs onto the cupola or some other penetrable part of the turret in order to get a shot in? And if the enemy's cupola is below the terrain horizon (and that's well above the gun barrel) they can't land a shot on me - no?

I have found it on Sand River (ridge at A8) and on Highway (ridges at C1 and D1) and on Serene Coast (ridges at B2 and C2).

Any comments/advice welcome.

Thanks

 



Nitro_Tank #2 Posted 02 September 2019 - 06:39 PM

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The problem is, that not every tank sees from the same point (for example right where the gun is). One example of this is one of the new british lights (cant remember exactly which), in which you can see the projectiles coming out from over your "head" when in sniper mode. While you might think your tank is hidden, because you can't see anybody, your turret might be visible because your view point isnt at the top while for others it is. 

 

Also map textures, for example rocks, arent always equal for both sides and they might see a slight bit of you while you don't see them.

 

If you have a big cupola it can be a learn to play issue, but its not always the case.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #3 Posted 02 September 2019 - 06:47 PM

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View PostGeneralJock, on 02 September 2019 - 09:32 PM, said:

Can anyone help me out with what I'm missing in the game mechanic here. I've searched around, and can't find any other reason than I am ultra-sucking. I haven't notice this before, and I'm not sure why, it may just be tanks I'm playing currently.

I have a couple of tanks with excellent gun depression, and therefore happy to try and exchange fire around a slope or hilltop. But I'm finding repeatedly that while I cannot see any part of the enemy tank at all - not even the periscope - they land a shot in my turret.

 

If your cupola for example are protruding from the ridge line then the enemy can shoot it and can spot you too if you were unspotted. Which tanks were you playing?

 

View PostGeneralJock, on 02 September 2019 - 09:32 PM, said:

I have found only one clear example of a graphics bug, where I shot clean through a rock and took out a tank. I don't think it is widespread on the maps, or is it?

 

Some rocks, walls, sand dunes, etc. are badly modeled on some maps. This is the case since patch 1.0 but with each patch WG fix these issues regularly.

 

View PostGeneralJock, on 02 September 2019 - 09:32 PM, said:

I have found it to be the case on several maps, and I just don't get it. Surely I need to be able to get my crosshairs onto the cupola or some other penetrable part of the turret in order to get a shot in? And if the enemy's cupola is below the terrain horizon (and that's well above the gun barrel) they can't land a shot on me - no?

I have found it on Sand River (ridge at A8) and on Highway (ridges at C1 and D1) and on Serene Coast (ridges at B2 and C2).

 

Best way to check these micro positioning issues is a training room. Use the same tank in the same position and observe through the other player what he is seeing of your tank/turret. Same thing with sidescraping angles or lines of fire.



Balc0ra #4 Posted 02 September 2019 - 07:45 PM

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View PostGeneralJock, on 02 September 2019 - 06:32 PM, said:

I have found only one clear example of a graphics bug, where I shot clean through a rock and took out a tank. I don't think it is widespread on the maps, or is it?

 

I can name 2-3 hitbox issues still around they have yet to fix since 1.0. And 2 that did appear after 1.0, like the Red house on Like Oaks. But not hundres like a year ago. So you might find some still. Tho via the places you did mention, like A8 on Sand River, there should not be such places. Tho depending on your graphic settings, you might find a few more places if you have medium or lower. If on Ultra etc, should not be an extra issue.

 

View PostGeneralJock, on 02 September 2019 - 06:32 PM, said:

I have a couple of tanks with excellent gun depression, and therefore happy to try and exchange fire around a slope or hilltop. But I'm finding repeatedly that while I cannot see any part of the enemy tank at all - not even the periscope - they land a shot in my turret.

 

Well, it's always easier for others to help more if you have a replay to showcase your issue. Or even on what tank you did drive. And what part of the turret? As in the mantle or cupola? As you gotta remember that your sniper sight view on some tanks, even tho clear of the ridgeline might still leave a massive cupola hanging around. Like on your T71.



GeneralJock #5 Posted 02 September 2019 - 10:16 PM

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Most noticeable tanks have been the E50 (with it's supposedly superb sideways depression) the Russian T-10 (not great depression, but bouncy turret when kept low), and then most specifically the American T69 and French Sumoa - that last tank has great turret depression but I just keep getting the gunner and commander shot out when trying to punch over a hilltop. Thanks for the comments.

(Edit: yes I do notice it on the T71 but not so much, maybe because I am rarely every stationary in it! I only actually shoot that thing when I've got a clear shot and an escape route)


Edited by GeneralJock, 02 September 2019 - 10:16 PM.


kubawt112 #6 Posted 02 September 2019 - 10:51 PM

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Keep in mind the (triple) 'overmatch' mechanics, which strictly speaking means that hitting 'one pixel' of your turret roof may lead to the enemy landing a damaging shot.

Edited by kubawt112, 02 September 2019 - 10:51 PM.


Dorander #7 Posted 02 September 2019 - 10:56 PM

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Alright, this situation isn't much more complex than the ostrich-effect, being simply the idea of "if I can't see them, they can't see me". Just like reality, WoT does not work this way, though obviously WoT is more abstract.

 

Let's first point out basic spot mechanics. Each tank has 6 points from which it can be spotted, so if one of those spot points has a unobstructed line to an enemy tank's "spotting position" (we'll get to that next) within its modified viewrange (max viewrange minus effective camo) a tank can be spotted. These six spot points are mid-front, mid-back, mid-left side, mid-right side, commander's hatch (cupola) and base of the gun.

 

Besides that, each tank has two "spotting points", points from which it can see enemy targets by drawing a straight line from its spotting points to its six spot points. These two spotting points are in fact two of the points at which a tank can be spotted, namely the commander's hatch and the base of the gun. Draw an unobstructed line from one of these two points to one of the six points on the other tank and if it's within modified viewrange the other tank will be spotted.

 

Lastly there's the camera point. The camera point is what you use for aiming in sniper mode. This is the point your shell will originate from, and is again one of the six spotting points, namely the base of your gun. Now it needs to be pointed out that this location and the rendered world in WoT has some MINOR discrepancies when it comes to firing arcs and target models which'll cause you to accidentally hit imperfect models in close range or be unable to fire at targets you are aiming at, but your aim indicator should always tell you. If your penetration indicator is grey, no matter your camera, you do not have a shot. Other than that, this pretty much works as you'd expect, if you can see a person from this camera position you can fire at it.

 

Now, knowing all that, consider where your gun is compared to the rest of your turret. Your gun is in the center of your turret, which means about half the turret, including the cupola (which is one of the six spotting points as well as one of the two spot-from points) is sticking out above the gun. That means that if you can see a target with your camera, your turret is guaranteed to be sticking out. It also means that if you can't see your target but you are high up enough on your ridge and pretty much guaranteed if you can spot your target yourself ('cause cupola is one of the two spot-from points), your cupola is sticking out from above the ridge.

 

Long story short, your camera originates from your GUN base, not your CUPOLA. That is why you can get hit by targets you can't see through your camera in sniper mode.



GrannyPanties #8 Posted 02 September 2019 - 11:50 PM

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Try abusing small hills or bumps to protest your lower hull. Trying to poke over a steep hill is a sure way for the enemy to shoot at your underbelly or keep you permanently tracked

TheComfyChair #9 Posted 02 September 2019 - 11:55 PM

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Aliens and lots of swearing when it happens to me. :deer:

Dorander #10 Posted 03 September 2019 - 01:19 AM

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View PostTheComfyChair, on 02 September 2019 - 10:55 PM, said:

Aliens and lots of swearing when it happens to me. :deer:

 

Have you been playing XCOM 2 lately like I've been? Every playthrough of mine involves lots of aliens and swearing in roughly equal measure.



MeetriX #11 Posted 03 September 2019 - 02:09 AM

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View PostGeneralJock, on 02 September 2019 - 06:32 PM, said:

not even the periscope - they land a shot in my turret.

 

That is not even a minor problem

They shoot my hull. So called hulldown monsters are myth.

It also work other way around. Enemy Chinese tanks can shoot from hulldown positions, but I can't see their hull.

I think it is Unicum thing just like snapshots and high rolls.

 



Captain_Kremen0 #12 Posted 03 September 2019 - 07:56 AM

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View PostDorander, on 03 September 2019 - 12:19 AM, said:

 

Have you been playing XCOM 2 lately like I've been? Every playthrough of mine involves lots of aliens and swearing in roughly equal measure.

Awww c'mon - even back in the world of rock hard games that had a reputation for being basterd hard.

 

On topic - my memory may not be what it was but I remember reading on the forum about being able to get a camera angle that shows you the front of your tank so you can see what was visible.(not just the usual 3rd person view)


Edited by Captain_Kremen0, 03 September 2019 - 08:00 AM.


Jauhesammutin #13 Posted 03 September 2019 - 08:10 AM

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View PostGeneralJock, on 02 September 2019 - 05:32 PM, said:

Can anyone help me out with what I'm missing in the game mechanic here. I've searched around, and can't find any other reason than I am ultra-sucking. I haven't notice this before, and I'm not sure why, it may just be tanks I'm playing currently.

I have a couple of tanks with excellent gun depression, and therefore happy to try and exchange fire around a slope or hilltop. But I'm finding repeatedly that while I cannot see any part of the enemy tank at all - not even the periscope - they land a shot in my turret.

I have found only one clear example of a graphics bug, where I shot clean through a rock and took out a tank. I don't think it is widespread on the maps, or is it?

I have found it to be the case on several maps, and I just don't get it. Surely I need to be able to get my crosshairs onto the cupola or some other penetrable part of the turret in order to get a shot in? And if the enemy's cupola is below the terrain horizon (and that's well above the gun barrel) they can't land a shot on me - no?

I have found it on Sand River (ridge at A8) and on Highway (ridges at C1 and D1) and on Serene Coast (ridges at B2 and C2).

Any comments/advice welcome.

Thanks

 

 

Could you post some replays? It would be much easier to analyze those than trying to imagine your situation.

 

Next time you are getting shot like that watch the replay and move your camera on front of your tank. This way you can see what the enemy saw.



Cobra6 #14 Posted 03 September 2019 - 10:06 AM

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Also, from 3rd person you can occasionally loop shots over terrain where in first person you don't have a Line of Sight.

 

Cobra 6



fwhaatpiraat #15 Posted 03 September 2019 - 10:17 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 03 September 2019 - 10:06 AM, said:

Also, from 3rd person you can occasionally loop shots over terrain where in first person you don't have a Line of Sight.

 

Cobra 6

Especially if you have terrible shell velocity.



Dorander #16 Posted 03 September 2019 - 11:36 AM

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View Postfwhaatpiraat, on 03 September 2019 - 09:17 AM, said:

Especially if you have terrible shell velocity.

 

Dare I say it... or when you play artillery :trollface:



eldrak #17 Posted 03 September 2019 - 12:02 PM

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When you are closer to the obstacle it will block more line of sight for you than it blocks for an enemy further away.

They will see you first.

 

It's the same thing as peeking corners in CS or other similar games.



Karasu_Hidesuke #18 Posted 03 September 2019 - 12:07 PM

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I suffer from this same problem too.

 

I've pretty much deduced that the view point is right above the gun barrel (or so it feels to me). What makes this really disturbing is that often the enemy tank is virtually entirely hidden behind the ridge line, with maybe just the cupola or turret roof barely visible to me. I don't even see their gun. I remember one encounter well, on Overlord, where an enemy Strv was able to shoot at me repeatedly from such position.

 

What makes it worse is that they can retreat, come barely to the ridge line and both aim and fire in a fraction of a second.. and hit.



4nt #19 Posted 03 September 2019 - 12:13 PM

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Here too: the inconsistent point of aiming, as it varies from tank to tank, causes headache when trying to peek and blap, and suddenly boom. Particularily tanks with good mantlet but weak roof/ big cupola. It'd Be nice to get them fixed, not as if it's a new issue. Same spot for every tank, dammit.

TheComfyChair #20 Posted 03 September 2019 - 12:17 PM

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View PostDorander, on 03 September 2019 - 01:19 AM, said:

 

Have you been playing XCOM 2 lately like I've been? Every playthrough of mine involves lots of aliens and swearing in roughly equal measure.

I'm waiting for them to lower the price on the DLC  .  I do tend to revert to xcom . Its RNG is shocking 






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