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Finnaly - XVM relic from the past ?

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Kartoshkaya #121 Posted 17 September 2019 - 05:19 PM

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Can't wait to see this coming so unicum realize it's not xvm wich make them get focused but their positionning in battle.

Jumping_Turtle #122 Posted 17 September 2019 - 05:34 PM

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View PostLil_Dimitry, on 17 September 2019 - 12:34 PM, said:

You need to understand that the guy has a copy pasta he posts on the forum everytime he kills someone he knows from the forum or a streamer,

 

 

Yeps, makes the game fun for me. If the nicknames would disappair from the game completly I would probably stop that moment.

 

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uses xvm,

 

Correct

 

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says xvm focus is a myth

 

Not correct. Although I like XVM, and yes use it. I never said that there is no focus. There is focus, just not as much as some on the forum would like to believe. When not even 30% of the players use XVM and not even 27% of all arty players use XVM there just can not be focus always and in every game. For sure it is there and even I have it sometimes, but I doubt in a lot of the cases if it is even XVM. And there ahve been plenty of good players on the forum who said it is not that bad and they can live with it, like Hundewurst did.

16:40 Added after 6 minute

View PostDragos_CS, on 17 September 2019 - 01:15 AM, said:

An account with 59% ?

 

Sorry I lied, it has dropped to 58.14% due to me playing the Russian Light line to tier 10.

 

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Let me guess, average tier 5.2

 

I have no idea what my average tier is. Have done the RU LT to tier 10, and am with the UK HT at tier 9 and a few others to 7 and 8.

 

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, the usual suspects will be the most played tanks?

 

That depends on your definition on usual suspects. If you name them I can check if I have played them.



Jumping_Turtle #123 Posted 17 September 2019 - 06:18 PM

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View PostDragos_CS, on 17 September 2019 - 01:15 AM, said:

 

To have ~65% WR be considered best of the best says a lot about the game in comparison to other multiplayer titles where much more than that is possible..

 

Thats kinda what I meant. Perhaps didnt make myself clear. I have a feeling that wargaming 'used' xvm to have some kind of balance on the better players so they wont become almost unbeatable. Same thing why I believe them keeping arty in the game is the same. To have something in the game players have no skill control over. Just as to why there is rng. If XVM was so terrible and bad for the game they could have done this years ago, same with arty. I really think they didnt mind XVM being there (and perhaps even collaberating with them to some point) and even making a few bucks with it.

 

Question. Lets say they remove XVM and lock out arties so there really is no more focus at all.

When you platoon with two equals. ... how much will you be able to raise the winrate and WN8 do you think ? Will you get your recents to 80% or even higher ?



Dragos_CS #124 Posted 17 September 2019 - 06:43 PM

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View PostJumping_Turtle, on 17 September 2019 - 06:18 PM, said:

 

Thats kinda what I meant. Perhaps didnt make myself clear. I have a feeling that wargaming 'used' xvm to have some kind of balance on the better players so they wont become almost unbeatable. Same thing why I believe them keeping arty in the game is the same. To have something in the game players have no skill control over. Just as to why there is rng. If XVM was so terrible and bad for the game they could have done this years ago, same with arty. I really think they didnt mind XVM being there (and perhaps even collaberating with them to some point) and even making a few bucks with it.

 

Question. Lets say they remove XVM and lock out arties so there really is no more focus at all.

When you platoon with two equals. ... how much will you be able to raise the winrate and WN8 do you think ? Will you get your recents to 80% or even higher ?

80%+ is already possible in a triple platoon focused on winning. Without arty and XVM you can probably get 90% with OP tanks.

Nobody does that since its pointless and it tanks your DPGs. Theres is no purple apocalypse waiting to happen.



Bulldog_Drummond #125 Posted 17 September 2019 - 09:03 PM

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View PostThinGun, on 17 September 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

 

To be fair, there's no correlation between XVM focus and Turtle's hit list.  He, like many forum users, uses Balrick's Forum Mod to identify forum users.  XVM isn't even part of the equation.

 

As I am on Turtle's kill list I must have brought down the xvm glory points considerably.  Like a stuffed chicken head mounted on the wall among the rhinos and tigers.



Element6 #126 Posted 17 September 2019 - 09:15 PM

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View PostThinGun, on 17 September 2019 - 03:11 PM, said:

 

To be fair, there's no correlation between XVM focus and Turtle's hit list.  He, like many forum users, uses Balrick's Forum Mod to identify forum users.  XVM isn't even part of the equation.

Technically it is part of the equation since the forumite mod needs XVM to work, but it doesn't need the stats part.



Schepel #127 Posted 18 September 2019 - 03:05 AM

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I still fail to see why it would be a good thing to allow people who use bots a nice cloak of protection that stops people from noticing. XVM focus happens, but honestly, I think most people who complain about xvm focus will be surprised. The main reason they get 'attention' is because they are visible and very clearly pose a threat. That won't change and thus the focus won't change either.

 

I use xvm to determine my approach to a game. Spotting for good players is a different proposition than spotting for bad players, for example. I would be sorry to lose this. It would dumb down the game for me. If that makes me an xvm monkey, so be it.



Mr_Burrows #128 Posted 18 September 2019 - 07:10 AM

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View PostSchepel, on 18 September 2019 - 03:05 AM, said:

I still fail to see why it would be a good thing to allow people who use bots a nice cloak of protection that stops people from noticing. XVM focus happens, but honestly, I think most people who complain about xvm focus will be surprised. The main reason they get 'attention' is because they are visible and very clearly pose a threat. That won't change and thus the focus won't change either.

 

I use xvm to determine my approach to a game. Spotting for good players is a different proposition than spotting for bad players, for example. I would be sorry to lose this. It would dumb down the game for me. If that makes me an xvm monkey, so be it.

 

 

Yep. Not so much to see what the enemy got, but to see what I got to work with (as I almost solely play lights). Those moments when you run out to one of your secret spots on Siegfried Line, spot 8 or 9 enemies, and your team manages to get a total of 700 hp dmg due to none of the being able to walk and chew gum at the same time, and even less hit the broadside of a barn, from the inside... 

Getting the info that you are the only one on the team with an average above that of a tame parakeet, means that I can perhaps persuade myself to choose a different approach. 

 

But the two main features I like the most when running about in my lights is the "spotted" list on the map, and the bright cheerful colors on my stats bars in garage. :) 

(Yes, I am that simple to keep happy)

Those will not disappear, and thus I will keep on using XVM. 

The version I use is the basic one from modxvm.com and as such they have a cooperaton with WG and is said to be safe to use. 

 



tajj7 #129 Posted 18 September 2019 - 09:00 AM

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View PostJumping_Turtle, on 16 September 2019 - 09:14 PM, said:

 

of course 63% isnt high enough. game must be made easier for you

 

It's not about making the game easier, its about making the game fairer.  It's two fold, one you have people gaining an advantage from a 3rd party mod (which is literally WG's definition of a cheat mod).

 

But you then have people being singled out and focused because of a 3rd party mod, purely because of that unfair information it is providing the user, something they would not be able to do without the mod, so it is allowing players to be unfairly treated and singled out. 

 

So basically you are saying you don't want the game made fairer and more balanced. 

 

It's also makes no sense that the game would be easier, more enjoyable certainly because people don't have to suffer an unfair toxic game experience as some mouth breather clicks on them all game just because of a cheat mod, but easier? nope, because over enough battles for every time a good player gets focused because of XVM, they would have faced someone on the enemy team that was getting focused and would have thus benefited from it.  So in terms of like win rate it would all even out in the end. 

 

Really there is no argument against this, it's an unfair cheat mod that allows players to be victimised and creates a massive amount of toxicity in the game. Removing it is what is called a 'no brainer'. 

 

 

View PostKartoshkaya, on 17 September 2019 - 04:19 PM, said:

Can't wait to see this coming so unicum realize it's not xvm wich make them get focused but their positionning in battle.

 

Yeh when I am behind a rock in a tier 8 heavy and there are tier 10s spotted in the open, but the arty player is still shooting at my rock, it's definitely my 'positioning' :D It also must be my 'positioning' when the arty player literally has 4 tanks bearing down at him at close range but is still trying to shoot me on the otherside of the map.

 

It's funny how people who wouldn't generally get XVM focused, don't think its a thing. There are no parallels of that situation in society at all.....:rolleyes:



Captain_Kremen0 #130 Posted 18 September 2019 - 09:37 AM

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View Postfeoffle3, on 17 September 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

Good.

 

For those saying XVM focus isn't a thing. What a load of rubbish.

 

It's pretty obvious when you're getting focused by enemy artillery.

 

It's also pretty obvious when that person drowns themselves at the start of the battle, or when they start stat-shaming people, there are all sorts of negative impacts of XVM being used for viewing others' stats.

I  shall call BS by way of facts.

Did a study last year whereby I counted up over a number of games the number of XVM users in each game. It was slightly lower than Drowned's estimation at about roughly 30% (it varied between 25 and 50). Next step was to count up how many of these were actually playing arty.

Anyways up the score was ~1.5% of players playing Arty with XVM - hardly a multitude even if all of them had the nous to actually focus anyone. So whilst it does happen it is hardly at the extent you would have us believe.

Feel free to come back with more than just feels.



feoffle3 #131 Posted 18 September 2019 - 09:52 AM

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View PostCaptain_Kremen0, on 18 September 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

I  shall call BS by way of facts.

Did a study last year whereby I counted up over a number of games the number of XVM users in each game. It was slightly lower than Drowned's estimation at about roughly 30% (it varied between 25 and 50). Next step was to count up how many of these were actually playing arty.

Anyways up the score was ~1.5% of players playing Arty with XVM - hardly a multitude even if all of them had the nous to actually focus anyone. So whilst it does happen it is hardly at the extent you would have us believe.

Feel free to come back with more than just feels.

 

Feel free to let me know the number of games that this study extended to, along with another dollop of condescension whilst you're at it.



Jumping_Turtle #132 Posted 18 September 2019 - 10:15 AM

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View Postfeoffle3, on 18 September 2019 - 09:52 AM, said:

 

Feel free to let me know the number of games that this study extended to, along with another dollop of condescension whilst you're at it.

 

Been doing the same for a while and posted this yesterday in another topic.

 

Quote

have been tracking this for a while now ever since we had a discussion about it in another topic. Havent added the latest results yet, but after almost 500 battles the scores are:

I keep track on how many players have xvm active. how many arties there are and how many of those arties have xvm active. From tier 5 to 10 and since I play on irregular times it covers most of the day:

 

Players with XVM active : 29.72%

Arties in a team : 1.59

Arties with XVM active : 26.66%

 

And those numbers havent really shifted much since 100 battles. So my guess is they will not change much, but I will keep track.


Edited by Jumping_Turtle, 18 September 2019 - 10:50 AM.


jabster #133 Posted 18 September 2019 - 10:39 AM

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View PostCaptain_Kremen0, on 18 September 2019 - 08:37 AM, said:

I  shall call BS by way of facts.

Did a study last year whereby I counted up over a number of games the number of XVM users in each game. It was slightly lower than Drowned's estimation at about roughly 30% (it varied between 25 and 50). Next step was to count up how many of these were actually playing arty.

Anyways up the score was ~1.5% of players playing Arty with XVM - hardly a multitude even if all of them had the nous to actually focus anyone. So whilst it does happen it is hardly at the extent you would have us believe.

Feel free to come back with more than just feels.

 

That tallies with some of the other figures I've seen.

 

One thing I would note is that even if there's something negative in, and I'm making the numbers up to illustrate a point, say 1 in 10 games they overall negative can be far higher than may be expected for just one game 'ruined'.



tajj7 #134 Posted 18 September 2019 - 11:29 AM

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View PostCaptain_Kremen0, on 18 September 2019 - 08:37 AM, said:

I  shall call BS by way of facts.

Did a study last year whereby I counted up over a number of games the number of XVM users in each game. It was slightly lower than Drowned's estimation at about roughly 30% (it varied between 25 and 50). Next step was to count up how many of these were actually playing arty.

Anyways up the score was ~1.5% of players playing Arty with XVM - hardly a multitude even if all of them had the nous to actually focus anyone. So whilst it does happen it is hardly at the extent you would have us believe.

Feel free to come back with more than just feels.

 

Numbers are pretty irrelevant, by that logic people with rare diseases shouldn't be treated or shouldn't have research for cures done into them, but that doesn't happen does it because it's someone's life and health we are talking about.

 

Simply -

 

1. XVM focus does happen, that is a fact, I have experienced it, others have experienced it, others have admitted to doing it, you can see it happening in streams and videos etc. how often it happens becomes irrelevant because.....

 

2. It's a 3rd party mod that gives an unfair advantage, and causes players to be be unfairly treated. If we want a fair and balanced game, it's only logical to remove something that is unfair. 

 

3. It's impact leads to players suffering a toxic game environment and a less enjoyable game experience, again it's only logical that something that is causing player frustration and causes toxicity to be directed at them for no good reason, especially when it is not party of the game but an external mod, that something should go. 

 

So simply on the XVM focus thing alone, it is clearly a problem, that causes a negative impact to player's game experience and is inherently unfair. 

 

When we add in that overall in game stats causes other toxicity, like good players being lambasted, called cheats, bad players being stat shamed, players drowning or quitting because of the state of the teams or the win chance, then you just have further reason for it to go.

 

Now if you were arguing the priority that this problem should be tackled or what level of resources should be directed at it, then the frequency of it happening has some relevance, but you are not, you are trying to argue that is not really a problem at all, which is frankly nonsense and obviously wrong. 

 

It only needs to happen ONCE to be a problem and ruin someones game for no good reason, and it happens more frequently than that. Once you have something that is causing a toxic game environment, is causing players to be unfairly treated and negatively impacts their experience of the game, the number of times if happens becomes pretty irrelevant, especially when its a simple solution is available and the thing you are removing really brings very little positive to the game. 

 

There really is no good argument why in game stats should stay in the game. 

 


Edited by tajj7, 18 September 2019 - 11:30 AM.


CmdRatScabies #135 Posted 18 September 2019 - 11:49 AM

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I doubt WG are doing this for the benefit of better players but more so that players that are shy about showing their stats can play without attention.  I wonder how many true unicums will hide there stats vs displaying them as a sign that they're good enough to play without hiding.

Jumping_Turtle #136 Posted 18 September 2019 - 11:50 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 18 September 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

 

Numbers are pretty irrelevant, by that logic people with rare diseases shouldn't be treated or shouldn't have research for cures done into them, but that doesn't happen does it because it's someone's life and health we are talking about.

 

 

 

Thats a really bad example. I agree with everything else you wrote but this one just isnt true. Even in the medicine world it is money that controls everything. certainly for rare diseases.



Schepel #137 Posted 18 September 2019 - 12:03 PM

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Block Quote

 There really is no good argument why in game stats should stay in the game. 

 

Several have been provided so far in this topic. Your line of reasoning is problematic because you seem to be of the opinion only your argument counts.

 

Some food for thought:

 

1. XVM is not a cheat mod because WG has not deemed it a cheat mod. End of story by the very letter of the law as written by WG. (I am confident this means some of its features will be implemented to the core game eventually.)

2. XVM focus is a thing, but - it is your opinion it constitutes an unfair advantage. Arguably, it is detrimental to the team to focus a low tier rather than a top tier.

3. The prevalence of XVM focus is exaggerated greatly. I am not saying there is no great player focus, but it is odd when the perpetrator of focus doesn't even have XVM. (Try the mod, see for yourself: most games there are around 5 in total over both teams with XVM. Your 'mouth breathing arty' is very, very unlikely to run xvm. More likely he saw a target, got myopic about it, and didn't think. (Well, duh, he wouldn't be mouth breathing arty if he would be able to!) 

 

Anyway, once this feature has been implemented, let me know if it changes anything. I expect it won't, but prove me wrong! :)



tajj7 #138 Posted 18 September 2019 - 12:25 PM

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View PostJumping_Turtle, on 18 September 2019 - 10:50 AM, said:

 

Thats a really bad example. I agree with everything else you wrote but this one just isnt true. Even in the medicine world it is money that controls everything. certainly for rare diseases.

 

That is a resources/priority argument, a rare diseases can be argued to have less priority over diseases that impact more people, I get that, but it doesn't not make it a problem. 

 

View PostSchepel, on 18 September 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

 

Several have been provided so far in this topic. Your line of reasoning is problematic because you seem to be of the opinion only your argument counts.

 

Some food for thought:

 

1. XVM is not a cheat mod because WG has not deemed it a cheat mod. End of story by the very letter of the law as written by WG. (I am confident this means some of its features will be implemented to the core game eventually.)

2. XVM focus is a thing, but - it is your opinion it constitutes an unfair advantage. Arguably, it is detrimental to the team to focus a low tier rather than a top tier.

3. The prevalence of XVM focus is exaggerated greatly. I am not saying there is no great player focus, but it is odd when the perpetrator of focus doesn't even have XVM. (Try the mod, see for yourself: most games there are around 5 in total over both teams with XVM. Your 'mouth breathing arty' is very, very unlikely to run xvm. More likely he saw a target, got myopic about it, and didn't think. (Well, duh, he wouldn't be mouth breathing arty if he would be able to!) 

 

Anyway, once this feature has been implemented, let me know if it changes anything. I expect it won't, but prove me wrong! :)

 

1. It's a cheat mod because it matches WG's exact definition of a cheat mod, just because they have said it's ok doesn't change the fact that by their own logic it is a cheat.

 

2. As I said it's a two fold unfair advantage, the first one is a player has information that provides them with information that others don't have and you can't get without a 3rd party mod, you can't have the advantage XVM stats gives with regards to decision making with the vanilla game. Of course people argue you could just go get it, but the same logic applies to an aimbot. The second is that is treats people unfairly, if people have XVM then all players who enter a game with that person are not on the same footing because the XVM user can instantly treat them differently, focus them, ignore them, abuse them whatever, which is unfair, players shouldn't get treated differently because of colours of a mod.

 

3. I've played with XVM for years, I just haven't used it regularly recently, I am plenty of aware of how many use it and how many arty use it, and I've known 100% on many occasions that it was the reason I was getting focused.  Back when we had cross team chat I even had enemy arty players tell me they were going to focus me and I have seen my own team mates say 'X player is a unicum, focus him' or 'Focus the fame' player etc.  I do not have some sort of expectation that my performance is going to dramatically change because of this change, but I do know if will make my game experience more pleasant. 

 

 



Flicka #139 Posted 18 September 2019 - 12:33 PM

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OK, new proposition. Instead of random names they introduce the truthimazer, where you get a call sign based on your wr and rating.

Similar to XVM rating, so you have human at 50% and then you go higher and lower from that…

I don't know...like, 48% is a dumbass...46% as stupid as possible….44% and under can be Darwin was wrong.

No idea what higher ones would be, feel free to add ideas.



SaintMaddenus #140 Posted 18 September 2019 - 12:38 PM

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"You are average (for someone who played this game for more than a few months). No one is targeting you."

lol 8k average like Fook it is...  what game you playing?

 







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