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Stats for 150 mid tiered games. (Tiers 6,7 & 8)


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Wintermute_1 #1 Posted 19 September 2019 - 12:10 AM

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Below are the results of playing 150 games, 50 each at tiers 6,7 & 8.

The numbers show what type of MM I received and where I was positioned; so 1st of 3 tiers means I was top tier in a three tier game while 2nd of 2 tiers means I was bottom tier in a two tiered game. I also grouped the MM into 3 categories; Advantageous MM where I was top tier, Balanced MM where I was mid tier or in a single tiered game and Disadvantageous MM where I was bottom tier. The groupings are subjective but generally correspond to what think about getting that type of MM.

There's the number of enemy arty per game included below as well along with the average number of arty for the tier etc.

 

50 games at each tier, 150 games in total only takes you so far as a sample size but it gives you a rough idea about what to expect. Btw, I played no arty myself and played no Pref MM tanks. I played a block of 10 tier 8 games then 10x tier 7, tier 6 etc repeating until I reached 150 games. Games were played over multiple days that included 1 weekend.

 

Notable things:

- Tier 7 never gets singled tiered games unlike tiers 6 and 8. Does tier 7 even have a single tier MM template?

- If you consider same tier and top tier MM 'ok' its best to play tier 8 as you'll get that MM about 2 thirds of the time. (most of it will be single tiered games though)

- Overall bottom tier MM made up about half the games.

- Tier 6 gets the most bottom tier games (And a lot of them will be bottom in 3 tiered games), it also gets the most arty on average per game.

- On average you can expect 1.5 enemy arty per game (Which is the way its always been tbh)

- Longest sequence of games without 3 arty in a game = 17, Longest sequence of games without a 0 arty game = 22, Longest string of 0 arty games = 3, Longest string of 3 arty games = 3.   

 

In a nutshell: Tier 6 is worse than I thought.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Dava_117 #2 Posted 19 September 2019 - 12:22 AM

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I would consider 2nd on a 2 tier battle a balanced MM. Many tier 6 tanks can compete with tier 7 tanks quite well. I like to get tier 7 tanks in my T-150 in example, as I can compete well against IS or T29 tanks while being rewarded well for the damage done! 


Edited by Dava_117, 19 September 2019 - 12:22 AM.


Stevies_Team #3 Posted 19 September 2019 - 12:32 AM

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Tier 6 and 7 are waaay better than tier8

 

All the soviet nonsense starts at tier 8


Edited by If_I_Die_You_Die_Too, 19 September 2019 - 12:34 AM.


VarzA #4 Posted 19 September 2019 - 12:41 AM

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Now add into account the fact that t6 (like t10) is one of those tiers where you have high alpha HE rounds that can 1 shot a same tier med.

 

And for that in t10 you need a pen with a gold round and a high roll.

For t6, all you need is a regular HE shell and a low roll will do.

 

And on top of all the above, and seeing more arty than usual, t5-6 arty can 1 shot t5-6 lights, or 2-3 shot a med (armored med, not super paper one).

 

The bane of existence for playing at T6 is ... HE and it's mechanics, it's predominance and the unusual # of high alpha HE guns at that tier.


Edited by VarzA, 19 September 2019 - 12:44 AM.


Balc0ra #5 Posted 19 September 2019 - 01:39 AM

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What classes etc where you playing for the most part with those numbers? As I've been playing mostly lights of late with a dose of meds between. And according to my replay manager stats, tier 7 has mostly been -1 and +1. Tier 8 has mostly been 0 and -2. Tier 9 has mostly been 0 and +1. Tier 6 that is about 90% T-50-2 has seen -1 and +1 the most. Not the same amount of battles on each tier ofc.

 

 



prskanje #6 Posted 19 September 2019 - 06:56 AM

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View PostVarzA, on 19 September 2019 - 12:41 AM, said:

Now add into account the fact that t6 (like t10) is one of those tiers where you have high alpha HE rounds that can 1 shot a same tier med.

 

And for that in t10 you need a pen with a gold round and a high roll.

For t6, all you need is a regular HE shell and a low roll will do.

 

And on top of all the above, and seeing more arty than usual, t5-6 arty can 1 shot t5-6 lights, or 2-3 shot a med (armored med, not super paper one).

 

The bane of existence for playing at T6 is ... HE and it's mechanics, it's predominance and the unusual # of high alpha HE guns at that tier.

 

You haven't played tier 5 a while, have you? Weakspot and penetration knowledge goes right out the window from all the KV1-s, KV1S', Shermans (US and British), Panzers, Stugs.

 

And there's the f***ing leffe. 



Lagalaza #7 Posted 19 September 2019 - 09:36 AM

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View Postprskanje, on 19 September 2019 - 05:56 AM, said:

 

You haven't played tier 5 a while, have you? Weakspot and penetration knowledge goes right out the window from all the KV1-s, KV1S', Shermans (US and British), Panzers, Stugs.

 

And there's the f***ing leffe. 

 

Oh boy, I know what you mean. Arty is a nightmare at Tier 5 where you can be an easy one-shot when driving a medium!!



tajj7 #8 Posted 19 September 2019 - 09:57 AM

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The higher arty at tier 6 I would put down to tier 5 and 6 arty being OP as all hell and people knowing this. M44, LefHs, Grilles, Hummels, Wg seems to have forgotten mid tier arty exists and that they didn't nerf them to the same level they did the the tier 8-10.

 

Their damage, DPM and pen is proportionally WAY higher than the tier 9 and 10 arties, Circon did a good video on it, but look at say M44 compared to T92, it has HIGHER DPM, even though its a tier 6 and most tanks on tier 6 have around 700-800 HP, and the T92 only has 21mm more penetration, even though again its against tier 10 tanks with way more all round armour. 

 

Loads of tanks have less than 39mm sides/roofs/rears, even fronts on tier 6, so the M44 is able to pen more stuff and is able to fire more frequently, whilst of course being more accurate and aiming faster.

 

A T92 for example with a full penning shot, can maybe with a high roll one shot a tier 9 TD, every 42s ish, the M44, with a full penning shot (which is more likely) can easily one shot SAME TIER TDs with only a slight high roll needed, it can one shot most tier 5 meds as well and even some heavies with high rolls. A T92 has no chance really of one shoting a tier 9 heavy. 

 

And the M44 can do all this every 17-18s.

 

Completely broken and people know it, so these arties are very popular.

 

Look how they make 50% and below players overperform -

 

Posted Image

 

------------------------------

 

As for the rest I'd presume that tier 6 is suffering in the MM because of the fix to tier 8, tier 8 was seeing masses of tier 10 games, obviously making tier 8s see less tier 10 games means they will see more tier 6 games, especially the pref-MM tier 8 who saw tier 9 almost all of the time. 

 

 


Edited by tajj7, 19 September 2019 - 09:57 AM.


TungstenHitman #9 Posted 19 September 2019 - 12:18 PM

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Nice work but sample size needs to be much bigger, more like 300 games played at each tier, since some of your % results reads very favorable or unfavorable for each tier when its actually only been a couple of battles more or less that gave rise to 60% instead of 50 or 40%, much like a players daily or weekly win rates where they can see "yay 70% win rate!" or "omg! 30% win rate!" but just the same, the sample size was only small.

 

Also, the effects of +- tier MM can be actually more or less dramatic than results might seem, even if this chart remained true after a much larger sample size. While it might seem that T6 gets the roughest deal of not being bottom tier of 3 tiers while tier8 gets the best deal, you also have to explore the tanks contained within those tiers and above.

 

So for tier6, if that high bottom tier figure remained true after a large sample size, the reality is that T6 is very strong set of tanks generally speaking while many of the T7 tanks it faces are not all that difficult to fight against with a great deal of T7 tanks actually having only the same top gun as the T6 tanks, so its really only about removing a little more hp, not so much about having to actually tackle a really strong tank. Problem for T6 tanks generally speaking is the T8 tanks it will face which can contain some massively OP tanks like Defenders, some super heavies, IS-3A, hell, just the regular IS-3 along with a plethora of really strong premium A-L, A-R and WV etc but there isn't all that many of them so while yes, alone against a full hp T8 is going to be really big challenge with a T6, I wouldn't feel it's as unbeatable as a T8 left alone vs a T10.

 

For the T8, if the figures remained the same with a large sample size, then depending on what T8 it is you are using then even in an equal tier all T8 battle you can be a large disadvantage since there are some T8 tanks massively stronger than other T8 tanks, the kinds of imbalance that comes with this prolific premium tank tier in which the angle to sell a tank is by making it stronger than the tech tree alternative and actually being a T9 tank had it basically just a little more hp! That T8 will also have to face T9 tanks, a lot of them... and personally speaking I would be of the opinion that T9 tanks are massively more powerful than a T8 tanks, not all, but generally, compare a T54 or obj430 to a T44, it's not even a close fight and the T44 ain't even all that bad! Certainly not comparable to a T6 vs a T7 and of course the T8 also has to face T10 tanks which the gap is even more unassailable than it is when a T8 faces a T9 tank.

 

So my point is the figures don't always translate into the actual challenge or fairness. Sometimes things can look good or bad and in truth are not so bad at all or actually are not as good as it seems lol. 



Wintermute_1 #10 Posted 19 September 2019 - 09:28 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 19 September 2019 - 01:39 AM, said:

What classes etc where you playing for the most part with those numbers? As I've been playing mostly lights of late with a dose of meds between. And according to my replay manager stats, tier 7 has mostly been -1 and +1. Tier 8 has mostly been 0 and -2. Tier 9 has mostly been 0 and +1. Tier 6 that is about 90% T-50-2 has seen -1 and +1 the most. Not the same amount of battles on each tier ofc.

 

 


I was just playing through tanks for the daily doubles; a mixture of meds, heavies, TDs and lights. No lights at tier 8 though as I don't have one there currently. I didn't do tier 9 because I wanted all the same MM template possibilities and you can't have -2 at tier 9. T-50-2 was one of the lights I also played at tier 6, also the wheelie and the LTG at tier 7 I think.



Wintermute_1 #11 Posted 19 September 2019 - 09:46 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 19 September 2019 - 12:18 PM, said:

Nice work but sample size needs to be much bigger, more like 300 games played at each tier, since some of your % results reads very favorable or unfavorable for each tier when its actually only been a couple of battles more or less that gave rise to 60% instead of 50 or 40%, much like a players daily or weekly win rates where they can see "yay 70% win rate!" or "omg! 30% win rate!" but just the same, the sample size was only small.

 

Also, the effects of +- tier MM can be actually more or less dramatic than results might seem, even if this chart remained true after a much larger sample size. While it might seem that T6 gets the roughest deal of not being bottom tier of 3 tiers while tier8 gets the best deal, you also have to explore the tanks contained within those tiers and above.

 

So for tier6, if that high bottom tier figure remained true after a large sample size, the reality is that T6 is very strong set of tanks generally speaking while many of the T7 tanks it faces are not all that difficult to fight against with a great deal of T7 tanks actually having only the same top gun as the T6 tanks, so its really only about removing a little more hp, not so much about having to actually tackle a really strong tank. Problem for T6 tanks generally speaking is the T8 tanks it will face which can contain some massively OP tanks like Defenders, some super heavies, IS-3A, hell, just the regular IS-3 along with a plethora of really strong premium A-L, A-R and WV etc but there isn't all that many of them so while yes, alone against a full hp T8 is going to be really big challenge with a T6, I wouldn't feel it's as unbeatable as a T8 left alone vs a T10.

 

For the T8, if the figures remained the same with a large sample size, then depending on what T8 it is you are using then even in an equal tier all T8 battle you can be a large disadvantage since there are some T8 tanks massively stronger than other T8 tanks, the kinds of imbalance that comes with this prolific premium tank tier in which the angle to sell a tank is by making it stronger than the tech tree alternative and actually being a T9 tank had it basically just a little more hp! That T8 will also have to face T9 tanks, a lot of them... and personally speaking I would be of the opinion that T9 tanks are massively more powerful than a T8 tanks, not all, but generally, compare a T54 or obj430 to a T44, it's not even a close fight and the T44 ain't even all that bad! Certainly not comparable to a T6 vs a T7 and of course the T8 also has to face T10 tanks which the gap is even more unassailable than it is when a T8 faces a T9 tank.

 

So my point is the figures don't always translate into the actual challenge or fairness. Sometimes things can look good or bad and in truth are not so bad at all or actually are not as good as it seems lol. 

 

I agree that my sample size wasn't really big enough but it was a weigh up between getting a rough idea and how many numbers I could be bothered to write down on a sheet of paper. If anyone else wanted to do the same thing I'd be happy to add the numbers in and post up the new results. Also agree about the tanks you play, being bottom in tier 6 all the time didn't feel 'that' bad because I played tanks like the KV2 (Derps damage into anything), Lights (Main priority isn't damage anyway), Jackson which is my strongest tank in the game etc etc. Also played in the P43 Bis & Dicker Max and because they aren't quite as 'tier proof' I felt being bottom tier a bit more in them. I think you can probably say the same of most tiers however, tier 8 for ex. Lowe, Charioteer = relatively strong as bottom tier while Rev (screwed by pen) and T34b (totally screwed). I don't know how much thought the average player puts into the tanks that they choose to play at a specific tier though.

 

 



Solstad1069 #12 Posted 19 September 2019 - 10:30 PM

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Tier 6 mediums have horrible matchmaking. Its a shame because they used to be much fun with overall nicely balanced tanks.

Cobra6 #13 Posted 20 September 2019 - 09:42 AM

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So let me summarize:

Tier 6 is plagued by horrible matchmaking (and bad stock grinds).

Tier 7 is plagued by deliberate free XP tanks that, even fully upgraded, are still garbage.

Tier 8 is plagued by premiums that are blatantly better then your free tank *AND* deliberate free-XP tanks (chai AMX65t among others).

 

So from Tier 5 to Tier 9, it's nothing but suffering for free players and here WG is wondering why players are leaving in droves and their new supply of players is drying up.

Hint, look at the above problems WG and realize it's your own mistakes and short-sighted greed that caused it in the first place!

 

Cobra 6



iztok #14 Posted 20 September 2019 - 09:50 AM

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View PostWintermute_1, on 19 September 2019 - 12:10 AM, said:

Below are the results of playing 150 games, 50 each at tiers 6,7 & 8.

...

In a nutshell: Tier 6 is worse than I thought.

 

... but significantly better when I was still playing it and did a similar stat. There I was vs. tier-8 80% of the time. :( Another reason why I stopped playing.



Alukat123 #15 Posted 20 September 2019 - 09:56 AM

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Tier 6/7 was okay at 0.917 , but these days with all those overpowered tier 8 & 9 tanks it can be a real nightmare to play those tiers...

malachi6 #16 Posted 20 September 2019 - 12:21 PM

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You think each sample representing 2% is a reasonable sample size?

 

Saying tier 7 never sees single tier is reasonable?

 

Interesting data, questionable utility.



TungstenHitman #17 Posted 20 September 2019 - 12:22 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 20 September 2019 - 08:42 AM, said:

So let me summarize:

Tier 6 is plagued by horrible matchmaking (and bad stock grinds).

Tier 7 is plagued by deliberate free XP tanks that, even fully upgraded, are still garbage.

Tier 8 is plagued by premiums that are blatantly better then your free tank *AND* deliberate free-XP tanks (chai AMX65t among others).

 

So from Tier 5 to Tier 9, it's nothing but suffering for free players and here WG is wondering why players are leaving in droves and their new supply of players is drying up.

Hint, look at the above problems WG and realize it's your own mistakes and short-sighted greed that caused it in the first place!

 

Cobra 6

 

WG know that and this template is set that way purposefully to create the illusion that the new players will encounter unfair scenarios against higher tier tanks they can't beat to think that if they get that tank then their struggle will end but of course it's just bait and the same thing happens them when they get that higher tier tank that so comfortably demolished half of his team when it was the top tier tank but of course now its mostly a bottom tier tank again and again its in an unfair fight against higher tier and even stronger tanks so the template is done so that things will always be unfair and against almost unbeatable higher tier tanks until you literally run out of tiers and can no longer face any higher tier tanks at which point, that player will be at either tier9 but more likely tier10 and to play those tiers, unless you have lots of free time to grind credits then generally you have to either run a premium account which is WG's point to the template, to make money, or else the player can purchase silver with money or perhaps grind credits... and of course the best way to grind credits is with a money bought premium tank. Not any old premium tank either, the most expensive premium tanks from tier8 and generally the more expensive the tank the better and more OP it is. 

 

So clearly player experience and satisfaction takes second place over the importance of making money. It's a precarious balancing act and I guess they won't change it so long as the playerbase maintains a big enough size to what WG would consider a sustainable profit and there's not an alarming amount of player numbers dropping outside of predictable seasonal fluctuations. I have no doubt we'd experience a completely different and way more enjoyable offering of this game if WG could find a way to generate as much money or more money than they currently do through some other means than the template they have designed to make money with so far. What that is, well, if I knew that I'd be a very wealthy man lol but WG very much know this game is not fair and created as pay to win as possible to make money without it looking too blatant to most the punters who play it. 



Wintermute_1 #18 Posted 20 September 2019 - 03:56 PM

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View Postmalachi6, on 20 September 2019 - 12:21 PM, said:

Interesting data, questionable utility.

 

Luckily its for interest and not utility.



gunslingerXXX #19 Posted 20 September 2019 - 08:27 PM

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View PostWintermute_1, on 19 September 2019 - 12:10 AM, said:

Below are the results of playing 150 games

 

Nice data, thanks for keeping track.

 

For me it was more or less what I expected. MM improved a lot since the 3/5/7 fiasco.

Also it's important to remember part of the 3/5/7 remained in the sense that bottom tier tanks usually outnumber the top tiers. So bottom tier is not as bad as it was before 3/5/7.

I generally quite like tier 6, but as mentioned above arty really is too powerfull there (and 5+7 as well).



Gaijira #20 Posted 22 September 2019 - 09:34 AM

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But there is nothing that can really be done for Tier 6 outside of making MM +1/-1 like in WoT Blitz. There's simply too many Tier 8 vehicles in the game. Wargaming still won't to do it though, because people paid money so they could rompastomp Tier 6s with their Defenders and Skorpians, you could argue that in making sure Tier 8s simply cannot face Tier 6 anymore, it would reduce the value of the premium tanks they purchased and refunds would have to be considered.

 

Feel a bit sorry for wargaming though, in the early days they really did try to keep everything balanced and not too p2w, but shareholders want increased profits (and therefore dividends) year on year, if they lose thousands of free players but are able to hold on to the big spenders who buy premium tanks and competitive players who stock a lot of gold ammo by dangling "super rare", "too OP for general sale" premium tanks by offering one every couple of months in front of these people (either purchasing them to win, or getting saps to stock up with gold for the impending slaughter in MM), they're just not loosing money. 

 

And this is the problem with free-to-play, when there is no ceiling to the profits because of micro-transactions instead of an upfront payment at release, sooner or later business men outrank the game designers and want to exploit that fully. Because stagnation of profits is almost as bad as loosing money, there needs to be growth every year.






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