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The Great Race ... and why i think it is T50 races instead of Chaffee races 2.0


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VarzA #1 Posted 28 September 2019 - 05:32 AM

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Some of you who have been active in the great races thread have seen me .... well, b**** for a while about the T-50 sport, some of you may even have become bored with it, i hope you will give me your attention for a little bit longer to put in a simpler form what i see wrong with this event and why i think it unfairly favours the russian tank.

Before i start though, i'd like to say that i play solo and i prefer to play the Leopard.

 

--

There are several elements that come together to favour the T-50 and i'd like to explain each one of them.

--

1 - DPM

When you look at DPM it seems simpler to take the Chaffee as the standard by which the others should be measured, as it is right smack in the middle of them all.

Chaffee does 40 damage every 3s, which is 20 hp/1.5s.

T-50 does 22 hp/1.5s.

Leopard seems to do around 18 hp/1.5s.

 

Leopard is a bit tougher to measure, clip reload is 5s, and unload seems to be around 1s. It could be like in the t5 tech tree tank from the game which is <0.5s, but let's assume around that for easier calculations. (if 0.5s for unload that means 5.5s for full load + unload, 18hp / 1.375s, which is around (18x1.5)/1.375=19.64 hp/1.5s)

 

So, if you end up in a straight brawl, like in the final stretch or in the cap, a Chaffee of 1000 HP would be able to go toe to toe with a T-50 of 909 HP, with both reaching 0 HP at the same time.

So that means :

Leopard 1100 HP = Chaffee 1000 HP = T-50 909 HP

They would all be able to destroy each other at around the same mark.

 

If the unload speed of the Leopard is in fact 0.5s, it would mean 19.64 HP / 1.5s destroyed, which puts it at around 1018 HP instead of 1100 HP, but overall it wouldn't matter that much because there are some drawbacks to the Leopard hull (gun depression) and the need to expose more to unload full, etc ...

 

2 - mobility

Again, Chaffee seems to be smack in the middle here, for the most part.

110 kph, some handling, 3s to accelerate to 100kph (important when recovering from spin/hit/stopped).

120 KPH for Leopard, but worse handling, 3.5s to accelerate to 100 kph, and overall it's the tank that seems to bleed the most speed on turns (and quite a lot of the map has turns).

100 kph for T-50, but the best handling, and for some reason, 2s to accelerate to 100kph. It bleeds the least amount of speed in turns.

 

So we have :

100kph + best handling + 2s acceleration

110kph + regular handling + 3s acceleration

120kph + worse handling + 3.5s acceleration

 

What shocks me is ... why does the T-50 have the best acceleration, which dictates how it gets up to speed after loss of speed through crashing or curbes  when it has the handling that ensures the least amount of crashes ?

Handling + acceleration seem there to offset top speed, the Leopard is hit twice with penalties, it gets speed but it's not like the map is straight without curves, while the T-50 gets both of these very good, and it loses a little bit of speed which is compensated by the speed boost being used in straight line.

 

3 - HP boost

The 3 HP boosts at the end are of 250/150/100 HP.

And it's a good idea, the team most in front probably took the most fire and it could use the HP boost to make things fair in the cap zone.

 

----

Now let's think platoons of T-50's.

A T-50 platoon will find it the easiest to finish the race without crashing, and even if there is a crash it will recover the fastest from the crash, they come into their element on the final stretch and the cap itself, as it becomes a DPM race, and if they are consistent they have the highest probability of ending as first to the HP boost, which would be an insane advantage.

Combined, the boost is of 500 HP, which is half a tank.

All they have to do is to pull range, keep that range, screen each other if need be and use the boost in a straight line.

 

Individually i think the T-50 is overtuned, i think it needed 2.5s acceleration and slightly worse handling, maybe a variation in HP as well (make it like 950 hp instead of 1000).

But 3 t-50's working together, i think they are insanely OP and they have a very very good probability of ensuring a win.

That's not to say that the Chaffee platoon or the Leopard platoon doesn't work, i think the Chaffee platoon works quite well, but overall i think the Leopard platoon is the worst.

The more you go towards high alpha damage, the less dpm you have, and the more pressing it becomes to drop an enemy early in the battle with focus fire ... which might be hard if the enemy is a T-50 platoon as the probability of one messing up, panicking or crashing is lower, the tank is easier to control while the importance of tank control is much higher on your side.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

PS: I left out some stuff like the bad gun depression of the Leopard, the need for it to expose itself more in order to unload fully and the trading discussion of chaffe vs leopard.


Edited by VarzA, 28 September 2019 - 06:12 AM.


VarzA #2 Posted 28 September 2019 - 05:57 AM

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Let's consider this an Errata.

 

So in-game, the tech tree Leopard unloads each 3 round burst in 0.14s (i think it's like 0.1375 but the game rounds it up to the 2nd decimal).

That means that in 0.14x3= 0.42s it unload the entire 4 burst clip with the first burst going out at t=0s (let's consider it 0.41s in case it is actually 0.1375 and it rounds down).

That means that the Race Leopard loads the clip + unloads in 5.41s (if they copied the unload speed from the tech tree version).

 

As we took the 1.5s reload as a unit of standardization, that means 5.41/1.5 = 3.6

Clip damage is 72 HP, divided by 3.6 ... it means 20 hp / 1.5s.

 

That means that in this situation, the Leopard does the same HP damage per cycle as the Chaffee with the obvious trade-offs that each tank has.

 

That means that in an equal situation :

Leopard 1000 HP, Chaffee 1000 HP .... T-50 909 HP .... but they all have equal HP, which means that X=(22x1000)/20=1100 , where X is the equivalent HP of the T-50 in relation to it's DPM at 1000 HP.

 

What i mean by this is that a T-50 as it is right now with 1000 HP firing at a Chaffee/Leopard with the purpose of running out of HP at the same time, would need to meet one with 1100 HP in order for it to happen.

Which is like the T-50 having a hidden HP bonus, and having the best likelihood of all 3 to get to the actual HP bonus before the cap fight.

Doesn't seem balanced .... does it ?


Edited by VarzA, 28 September 2019 - 06:16 AM.


MeetriX #3 Posted 28 September 2019 - 08:32 AM

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Chaffee's and Leopard's guns are strong on track, but only if you keep the opponents in front of you, so you can trade better (If you can drive blind then it does not matter).

I've use T-50 about 95% of the races and 7/10 I've won. Almost quarantee 10p, 2 trophys when lost.



vixu #4 Posted 28 September 2019 - 10:19 AM

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There are so many other things that go into play here:

profile of the tank

- higher profile means that you get hit more
how well can you exploit the opening during the race. 

- if you can do only 1 shot per clearing, then your RoF is not that important during the race

how other players are focusing 

- often t50 gets focused first

 

Most important, with 2 minutes race and random team composition all those stat differences are rarely coming into real play. Often the game is decided before the base. 



Snakesteri #5 Posted 28 September 2019 - 11:08 AM

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Here is what I think:

 

T-50: the most idiot proof tank. if you don't know how to drive a tank play this. Just right click opponent and hold left click and focus on driving. If you dont know how to play this tank then dont play great race mode please.

 

chaffee: good at the racing part of the race. you can deal pretty good damage at the racing part. but at the endgame pretty meh

 

Leopard: The shi*tiest of all of these. Only works at the endgame if there is two of these. otherwise total garbage

 



snowlywhite #6 Posted 28 September 2019 - 11:56 AM

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it's another crap event; but hey, nice rewards :P

 

chaffee seems vastly better on track at dealing dmg. Usually I'm in a t-50 and most of the time I win the race. What I hate most is having a chaffee behind me. I smack him for 20, he smacks me for 40. Adds up.

 

driving wise, t-50 is vastly better. But when I'm in a chaffee, the guy I'm focusing will be below 500 by the time the race ends. Sometimes way below 500.

 

t-50 - easier to drive

chaffee - 2-300 more dmg during the race itself

leo - no clue. In theory should be even better at dealing dmg on track, but the turning is horrid and the dmg dealt is only on paper. In reality, out of the clip, some will bounce.

 

p.s. - summing it up: t-50 much better to get the points for actually wining the track. Chaffee much better in securing the overall win and securing the 1k dmg points.


Edited by snowlywhite, 28 September 2019 - 12:03 PM.


BQBD #7 Posted 28 September 2019 - 01:07 PM

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View PostMeetriX, on 28 September 2019 - 08:32 AM, said:

Chaffee's and Leopard's guns are strong on track, but only if you keep the opponents in front of you, so you can trade better (If you can drive blind then it does not matter).

I've use T-50 about 95% of the races and 7/10 I've won. Almost quarantee 10p, 2 trophys when lost.

 

I found this to be true as well. When T50 is in battle I take out Leopard as it is quite fun to clip out enemies on track and you hope you were able to dish out enough damage before you get to the cap :D:D



Shacou #8 Posted 28 September 2019 - 01:30 PM

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I use only T-50, tried Leopard too though. WIth T-50 you either come in 1st or die racing.

Balc0ra #9 Posted 28 September 2019 - 02:25 PM

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Oddly enough, the first day I did see mostly Leo's. Then the 2nd day it was mostly T-50's. Now it's mostly Chaffees and T-50's.

 

Tho IMO the T-50 is the best to have in the cap with the ROF. The Leo is definitely the best during the race IMO. If I see 2 or 3 Leos on the other team. And they all focus on one. He is dead before the corkscrew. Never fails. 



Sebastianxx #10 Posted 28 September 2019 - 03:08 PM

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Chaffee can do a lot of damage on track, in the tiny gaps, a T-50 gets to do 20 damage, Chaffee does 40 damage, by the finish line I do ~800-900 damage with Chaffee but only ~500-600 with T-50. T-50 has the DPM in the arena but BARELY a bit more. Most damage I had with T-50 was 1300, while most damage I had with Chaffee was 1900 because of how much damage it does on the track. Leopard just feels weak, big target, horrible in turns, not enough straight roads for it to use the 120kmh, the long reload means it won't have more than 1 window of fire in most cases while missing the second window depending on track location. UP the ramps T-50 gets to shoot twice, doing ~40 damage, so does the Chaffe but for ~80 damage and then again each of them for another 20 and 40 damage after cresting the jump, meanwhile Leopard can only shoot once while going up a ramp and because of the time it takes to empty the magazine it won't get to shoot at the top of the ramp in mid-air also. Leopard is good for the ramps on the map, mid-air it does a lot of damage with the whole magazine, while others can only shoot at it once, beyond that it's not so good. 
So without a doubt this is the rating:
1. Always go for Chaffee if you can drive, target swap and pay attention to the gaps and when to shoot, it does so much damage on the track that the tiny difference in DPM the T-50 has over it is meaningless if you're a good driver and shooter.

2. Use the T-50 if you cannot focus on shooting and driving at the same time, because of it's consistent fast rate of fire, you're most likely going to land hits while on the track and you will do the most damage in the arena.

3. Only use the Leopard if you're playing with a pre-made squad that can hold their own and keep up with you, preferable with Leopards as well, and not because the Leopard is good (it's bad) but it has the highest burst out of the 3 tanks meaning that 3 Leopards focusing 1 target can have such a demoralizing effect on someone that they will most likely slow down and let their team pass, meaning you and your squad SHOULD pass the finish line 1st 2nd and 3rd winning back the HP you lost on the track and then winning the game 100% of times especially after you master the windows in which you need to shoot with the Leopard.

 

Also, the hell is wrong with some teammates, they're not shooting at all, why? Are they bots or just braindead people?



Telham #11 Posted 28 September 2019 - 03:21 PM

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Right clicking and then left clicking is like very very hard …

SiliconSidewinder #12 Posted 28 September 2019 - 03:22 PM

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I prefer the chaffee it takes more effort to get the damage out on the track, lots of t50 players just seem to hold down the firebutton, but when you do it right you can kill someone by the time you get to the 360° circle, which is basically a auto win and 1k damage guranteed.



Gruff_ #13 Posted 28 September 2019 - 03:37 PM

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I prefer the chaffee as you can get higher dmg out when the barriers are low on the way round, the leo I crash more often and you aren't loaded for the 1st chance to shoot, if you mess up your reload timing after you arre also stuffed for damage output.  The T50 you cant always get 2 shots out in a window so track dpm goess down.

 

I get what you are saying about a team of 3 t50's staying together at the same pace until the end though, but perhaps the other 3 will have killed one more easily and chance to cap out, lots of variables.

 

This mode really comes down the the player in that race and not the tank is my overall feeling.  Nice to bump into you last night :)



4nt #14 Posted 28 September 2019 - 03:43 PM

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I find that even tho t50 is numerically strongest contender I still play Leo and chaffee far more.

For me 50s turning is far too hectic to have good lines, with chaffee the control is more... Even, If that makes sense. And Leo feels More like playing with actual randoms tank.

Balc0ra #15 Posted 28 September 2019 - 03:50 PM

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View PostSebastianxx, on 28 September 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

Chaffee can do a lot of damage on track, in the tiny gaps, a T-50 gets to do 20 damage, Chaffee does 40 damage, T-50 has the DPM in the arena but BARELY a bit more. 

 

And in that same gap the T-50 if he fires early can get 40 to 60 damage in the time the Chaffee reloads. Or the Leo do 70 ish. It's why I find the Chaffee to be useless on most part of the track vs the other two. And barely enough DPM is just enough to lose it. T-50 can afford to miss a shot here and there on the move in the arena. Chaffee can't. As the easiest 2 vs 3's I've had in cap... is if they don't have T-50's, and we do.

 

 

StronkiTonki #16 Posted 28 September 2019 - 04:40 PM

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I pretty much only play the Leopard and enjoying it. Easily first across the finish line 80% of the races.

VarzA #17 Posted 28 September 2019 - 04:43 PM

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One interesting thing about the Chaffee and which probably serves as a balancing thing, it has low-ish shell velocity so if it primaries you, using turbo can make them miss.

Dava_117 #18 Posted 28 September 2019 - 04:52 PM

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I have no problem with the racing part. 

My Leopard works pretty well in this section and have no problem racing against both T-50s and Chaffees. The problem, IMO, is that being behind favours the seconds because they can better shoot at enemies. I already don't understand why should we shoot each other during the race, but then shooting should be suboptimal. Having RNG as in game would be the best, and having bounce mechanics too, as as it is now bouncing shells is totally random.

IMO, the end game should be the last opportunity for the slower team to win, but no one should be able to shoot during the race. 



8126Jakobsson #19 Posted 28 September 2019 - 05:01 PM

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View PostSnakesteri, on 28 September 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

Leopard: The shi*tiest of all of these. Only works at the endgame if there is two of these. otherwise total garbage

 

I disagree. It's the best damage farmer during the race and worst in cap. I have only played the Leo though so I don't have any numbers of my own to compare with, but I find it hard to believe that I would get any more damage with the single shooters in those small gaps. But yeah once you're on the last straight and in cap then it's quite weak. An enemy should be dead before that though so it's alright.



MeetriX #20 Posted 28 September 2019 - 06:46 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 28 September 2019 - 04:52 PM, said:

I have no problem with the racing part. 

My Leopard works pretty well in this section and have no problem racing against both T-50s and Chaffees. The problem, IMO, is that being behind favours the seconds because they can better shoot at enemies. I already don't understand why should we shoot each other during the race, but then shooting should be suboptimal. Having RNG as in game would be the best, and having bounce mechanics too, as as it is now bouncing shells is totally random.

IMO, the end game should be the last opportunity for the slower team to win, but no one should be able to shoot during the race. 

RNG is on, dmg/shot will vary and tanks bounce, but only if extra armor gets hit.






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