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[Sandbox] High-Explosive Shells Revision: Join the Testing!


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Falathi #261 Posted 18 October 2019 - 01:47 PM

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View PostLastGod, on 18 October 2019 - 01:24 PM, said:


While that is true, wouldn't this time be better spent testing solutions to other, much more key issues than... more or less wasting time on this test? You most likely can't really say anything on that subject, but, in your opinion at least? Was HE really that "we have to test the solution to this huge issues right-away" kind of thing?

 

In short: ammo rework is a big change. It will affect, to lesser or greater degree all classes of vehicles and has a good chance of changing way many tanks are played - and in many cases in a pretty positive way. Also, we want to change the way ammo works now - if we were perfectly satisfied with it, why would we even consider introducing such a big change? 

That being said - we prefer to test it all thoroughly before proceeding to testing on the live server. It may still be the case that the general idea is sound, but in any case testing is necessary. 

Oh, speaking of the rebalance - keep in mind, that rebalance of the ammo would affect many tanks, and potentially buff some vehicles that are UP now. There really is a pretty big picture behind all this testing guys. 
 



SiliconSidewinder #262 Posted 18 October 2019 - 01:48 PM

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I just fail to see how HE will become better with this.

removing HE penetration for example will completly destroy a whole dimension of the game, and where is the gain to replace it?

 

I am not sure wether WG is able to understand this, it doesn't seem that way, but the game is not getting more competitive by removing such a important feature.



Maxert_Axon #263 Posted 18 October 2019 - 01:51 PM

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View PostFalathi, on 18 October 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

Guys, 

 

just a short reminder as we`re effectively waiting to see the results of the test: 
 

This is a Sandbox. Changes tested in Sandbox are usually pretty serious because we want to check how the game would look like and what the results of some serious changes would be. How would they affect the game? 
And the key point is: it is a Sandbox. Some things tested here made it into the live server after the test results were satisfactory. Some were scrapped altogether. It is too early to say that yes, these changes will be implemented as they can be scrapped, or changed. I understand the concerns, but guys - it`s really a bit too early to say for sure how this will affect the live server as it may or may not happen at all. 


 



This "HE balancing" approach is dead from the start, trying to defend this sandbox iteration is meaningless. Creating a post with a title that contains "rebalancing HE" and doing the opposite is net BS, and as far as you can see, the people who commented to this topic doesn't get tricked by this, even your own CC-s loading up vids to Youtube and they say, this whole sandbox iteration was totally useless and a BAD approach to solve an unreal, or very minor problem.

I saw what kind of "rebalance" is this trough a stream, where the streamer is a very decent player. Forcing players to use derp guns with special ammo or forcing them to use different guns to be effective (like KV-2, Pz IV H etc.). Not to mention the fact that damaging an O-Ni with an M4 HE shell causing 11-15 dmg / shot with the 105mm Howitzer, while having terrible gun stats and reload time.

They will force these changes, like they forced the British light tanks into the game, and now the double-barrelled tanks as well. Community told they want some buffs to the British light tanks - they don't got it. Community told a lot of things to be changed - lot of things still not changed. Wargaming told us to wait for the rebalance after these sandbox iterations, and these sandbox iterations are just a waste of time, because the real problems are still here, just some examples:
- Frontal weakspots are missing from lots of tanks
- Lots of older tanks are powercreeped, and a little HP+AP damage buff will not solve their problem
- MM causing a lots of 15-0 - 15-2 defeats, and it can create scenarios like AMX 50 B vs Chieftain or VK1000.1P vs FCM 50t, and so on... where is that "role" based tank selection MM?
- Low-tier games for new players are a horror
- Low-tier artilleries doing significant damage compared to high-tier arties
- Artillery needs a completed rework, because stun mechanics still flustrating for most of us (maybe you should take the Google Maps view out, and give them some advanced full-screen minimap or something else), I could say they should get back their old dmg/pen.
- Creating a closed mod system to the game to block cheaters out (at least the low-grade cheaters)

Decreasing just the damage caused by premium (special or really expensive, call as you want) ammos or adding new mechanics for them its not a solution for that? It would be, but that can't generate income increases for the company.


Edited by Maxert_Axon, 18 October 2019 - 02:10 PM.


The_Ich #264 Posted 18 October 2019 - 01:55 PM

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Looking at these two statements, I have some fairly serious concerns:

 

https://thearmoredpa...damage-changes/

 • Object 261
– HE shell damage from 900 to 1000

• T92 HMC
– HE shell damage from 1300 to 1440

 

https://worldoftanks...andbox-october/

 If an HE round didn't penetrate the armor, then the system started calculations according to the damage formula from 0.5 in the center to 0.05 at the edge of the splash. [...] After the rebalance, the damage will be distributed over the splash radius, varying from 1 in the center to 0.1 at the edge.

 

This new scaling should also apply to arta, right? So a direct hit (in the new version) would be the equivalent of penetrating the armor (in the current version). But the arta damage is not (at least) halfed but even buffed - applying the math, an Obj 261 will do 122.22% more damage - how does this make sense?

 

 

https://worldoftanks...andbox-october/

 Changes from previous Sandbox iterations (the revision of the standard shells and changes in the number of hit points for all vehicles in the game) worked well, and they will also be included in the next iteration, in which you can try out the new changes.

 

So WG is still going with these ridiculous hitpoint changes, which have so many side effects on fundamental aspects of the game like balance, economy, reward scaling, (campaign) missions, mark-of-excelence requirements, statistics, psychological aspects (being used to, having to relearn), and so on? From what I heard WG stated that over 80% of the feedback was positive... while the feedback I read on over 15 pages in the sandbox forum thread was mostly negative. Maybe you should differentiate between the hitpoint changes and people, who like changes about gold ammunition in general and not measure everything by the same yardstick.


Edited by The_Ich, 18 October 2019 - 03:00 PM.


Zer0RNG #265 Posted 18 October 2019 - 01:57 PM

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View PostFalathi, on 18 October 2019 - 01:47 PM, said:

 

In short: ammo rework is a big change. It will affect, to lesser or greater degree all classes of vehicles and has a good chance of changing way many tanks are played - and in many cases in a pretty positive way. Also, we want to change the way ammo works now - if we were perfectly satisfied with it, why would we even consider introducing such a big change? 

That being said - we prefer to test it all thoroughly before proceeding to testing on the live server. It may still be the case that the general idea is sound, but in any case testing is necessary. 

Oh, speaking of the rebalance - keep in mind, that rebalance of the ammo would affect many tanks, and potentially buff some vehicles that are UP now. There really is a pretty big picture behind all this testing guys. 
 

I rly don't understand who complained about HE shells??? Except that weekly random player that got hit by a HESH shelll and he was rly rly unlucky to get pen....

 

u can't sell this like a good thing since everybody complain about it ... just read the forum and you will understand that this is just wrong..


Edited by Zer0RNG, 18 October 2019 - 02:01 PM.


Falathi #266 Posted 18 October 2019 - 01:58 PM

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SPG have not been changed in this iteration and honestly can`t say if, and how they would be changed. 

@Zer0RNG

 

The thing is that if we`re going to rebalance all ammo then we should include HE as well. 
As for HESH: they are a separate sort of ammunition and are not included in this iteration. It looks they won`t treated the way they are now - as just HE with better pen. 


 



HansiVonHinten #267 Posted 18 October 2019 - 02:02 PM

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View PostFalathi, on 18 October 2019 - 01:47 PM, said:

 

In short: ammo rework is a big change. It will affect, to lesser or greater degree all classes of vehicles and has a good chance of changing way many tanks are played - and in many cases in a pretty positive way. Also, we want to change the way ammo works now - if we were perfectly satisfied with it, why would we even consider introducing such a big change? 

That being said - we prefer to test it all thoroughly before proceeding to testing on the live server. It may still be the case that the general idea is sound, but in any case testing is necessary. 

Oh, speaking of the rebalance - keep in mind, that rebalance of the ammo would affect many tanks, and potentially buff some vehicles that are UP now. There really is a pretty big picture behind all this testing guys. 
 

The HE balance (as on sandbox) will buff which tanks?
I know it is for testing, but I fear the usual "I hear what you  say, but we don't listen" attitude will take place.
Those changes are completely destroying the fun of a variaty of tnaks: KV-2, Hetzer, M4, Borsig. WFT. PZ IV etc. 
You have already destroyed SPG's now it seems like yo are on the way to destroy derp guns.

Another bad move by you Wargaming.



Alukat123 #268 Posted 18 October 2019 - 02:04 PM

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View PostFalathi, on 17 October 2019 - 03:44 PM, said:

I`m not so sure about the cars being OP. Their HE damage can also be reduced in the process. 

 

Also, as mentioned in the text HESH shells are not the same as HE shells in regards to this test and changes tested in this iteration. 

 

That may be true. But if you're driving a slow heavy tank the HE pen may be the only chance to take them out before they get so close that it's no longer possible to point the gun at them... congratulations, that HE change is going to nerf slow tanks and buff the fast tanks even further... you're heading in the wrong direction here, fast tanks, especially the EBR, are already overpowered and you really plan to buff them further... i don't even...


Edited by Alukat123, 18 October 2019 - 02:07 PM.


MarcoStrapone #269 Posted 18 October 2019 - 02:06 PM

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repair kit after the tank has been destroyd.


 

not that this change doesnt matter to anyone.

its the idea they still think it is matter :trollface:



thetartanbaron #270 Posted 18 October 2019 - 02:13 PM

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Way to suck fun out of the game. Gone will be the simple pleasure of one shotting a T67 or ELC with my M4 derp- unless I pony up 5000 silver for a premium HE shell.

reddog102 #271 Posted 18 October 2019 - 02:14 PM

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I just don’t believe wargaming when they say they want to test something...they just waste our time, they don’t take any feedback from their player base on board and the only conclusion I can come to is they are just working out how to make the most profit. This so called HE rebalancing is a classic case. Let’s nerf the HE and then wait months pretending we are testing the premium ammo and evaluating the results *edited, before we reduce the damage value by 20%, so people have to carry 20% more gold ammo as the HE is so crap! If you think the situation is different you are naive! This game is a money pot for Mr Wargaming and we are suckers for playing this game. Time to find something better!

Edited by Gulcasa, 19 October 2019 - 06:15 PM.
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LastGod #272 Posted 18 October 2019 - 02:28 PM

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View PostFalathi, on 18 October 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

 

In short: ammo rework is a big change. It will affect, to lesser or greater degree all classes of vehicles and has a good chance of changing way many tanks are played - and in many cases in a pretty positive way. Also, we want to change the way ammo works now - if we were perfectly satisfied with it, why would we even consider introducing such a big change? 

That being said - we prefer to test it all thoroughly before proceeding to testing on the live server. It may still be the case that the general idea is sound, but in any case testing is necessary. 

Oh, speaking of the rebalance - keep in mind, that rebalance of the ammo would affect many tanks, and potentially buff some vehicles that are UP now. There really is a pretty big picture behind all this testing guys. 
 

I get that and I do want to thank you for taking the time to reply. My point of contention is that, so far, the ammo re-balancing has had no positive feedback as far as I, personally, have seen and it has brought up more questions than it has answered.

- Why change the HP of all tanks and up the AP damage when you can just change the Premium shell damage? That's trying to fix an issue by "fixing" things around it and not the issue itself. Why do extra work and make it harder for yourselves to balance (since you have to balance 2 things instead of 1) instead of just lowering prem ammo damage?

- Along with that, why is premium ammo still at that absurdly huge price when, at that point you'll need even more of it to kill tanks that are unkillable otherwise. And if you tell me that those tanks will be re-balanced after the fact, when will that happen? At this pace we'll see all the changes in a couple of years unless further re-balances after the re-balances are needed.

- Why change HE when you can still spam premium Heat and get the much more reliable damage and pen? Fix Premium ammo, fix the price for premium ammo so you make it "just another ammo type" and then look into making the distinct ammo types that you want. You cannot build on and fix things when there is a core, underlying issue (and it's not just one sadly) that just negates any work you're trying to do.

 

I'm sorry but none of this makes sense looking at the whole picture. And even if we look at the HE changes specifically, the goals that you set out in the post do not match at all what the implementation will do.

There are so many things wrong with the current system, mechanics and tanks that I'm afraid that simple 1 by 1 ammo changes will solve nothing. You need a complete tank re-balance along with ammo re-balancing at the same time (and a lot more things since ammo and tanks aren't the only issues, but we're talking about that here). How else will you see what works and what doesn't when it's not just 1 thing that's "broken"? It's, and this is unfortunate, the whole game that's out of whack with itself.

 

I dont want to belittle the work you're doing and I absolutely am not trying to say that you're not working at actually fixing the game, but so far, as far as the core mechanics of the game are concerned, I've seen nothing that really gives me a boost of confidence that the game is heading in the right direction.... and the worst part is that most of the people I used to play with think the same way and have long stopped playing the game.

 

I genuinely hope you guys can sort things out, but so far... it's all murky waters and uncertainty at the moment.


Edited by LastGod, 18 October 2019 - 02:29 PM.


Muscardo #273 Posted 18 October 2019 - 02:39 PM

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stop messing with the game cmon, if this come to play, just say bye bye to meu €€€ almost every week, and please refund me the KV-2R ok?

Edited by Muscardo, 18 October 2019 - 02:41 PM.


Sanderr #274 Posted 18 October 2019 - 02:54 PM

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World of tanks isn't dying, it's being killed.... not even being killed but executed.

markthekiller #275 Posted 18 October 2019 - 02:59 PM

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View PostFalathi, on 18 October 2019 - 01:58 PM, said:

SPG have not been changed in this iteration and honestly can`t say if, and how they would be changed. 

@Zer0RNG

 

The thing is that if we`re going to rebalance all ammo then we should include HE as well. 
As for HESH: they are a separate sort of ammunition and are not included in this iteration. It looks they won`t treated the way they are now - as just HE with better pen. 


 

 

Then why aren't you testing the new HE and premium ammo at the same time? What's the point of only testing HE when everyone will just use the current premium ammo anyway? 


Edited by markthekiller, 18 October 2019 - 02:59 PM.


ramboish #276 Posted 18 October 2019 - 03:19 PM

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Hey, everyone is asking us to rebalance maps, tanks and premium ammo, so let's break the game even more by nerfing HE. Hello? Who asked for this? Nobody. Absolutely nobody says HE is op. On the other hand, some maps are totally unbalanced and some tanks are also completely overpowered. Why? Does? WG? Want? To? Break? WOT???

 

EDIT: Since our business model is not based on providing players with a fun but skill-based game, but rather on frustrating the hell out of them, let's definitely not fix the matchmaker. Regular 15-2 battles are what frustrate our players the most! Let's regularly group unicums in their completely overpowered reward vehicles in the same team against bots and noobs in german tanks, tune the rng to be on the unicum's side and have a good laugh. The frustrated players will then buy more OP premiums and fire more gold shells.


Edited by ramboish, 18 October 2019 - 03:31 PM.


Arch___Enemy #277 Posted 18 October 2019 - 03:19 PM

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You take away HE shell penetration:

 

1. Players start to spam more premium ammo

2. What's the point of armor if HE shells do damage every time, even the low caliber guns.



Cobra6 #278 Posted 18 October 2019 - 03:20 PM

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View PostLastGod, on 18 October 2019 - 01:28 PM, said:

 

- Why change the HP of all tanks and up the AP damage when you can just change the Premium shell damage? That's trying to fix an issue by "fixing" things around it and not the issue itself. Why do extra work and make it harder for yourselves to balance (since you have to balance 2 things instead of 1) instead of just lowering prem ammo damage?

- Along with that, why is premium ammo still at that absurdly huge price when, at that point you'll need even more of it to kill tanks that are unkillable otherwise. And if you tell me that those tanks will be re-balanced after the fact, when will that happen? At this pace we'll see all the changes in a couple of years unless further re-balances after the re-balances are needed.

- Why change HE when you can still spam premium Heat and get the much more reliable damage and pen? Fix Premium ammo, fix the price for premium ammo so you make it "just another ammo type" and then look into making the distinct ammo types that you want. You cannot build on and fix things when there is a core, underlying issue (and it's not just one sadly) that just negates any work you're trying to do.

 

 

Pretty much this indeed.

 

Cobra 6



adharus #279 Posted 18 October 2019 - 03:23 PM

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View Post13685, on 18 October 2019 - 01:28 PM, said:

Making HE shells more consistent throughout the tiers is a really good thing, and so is treating HESH shells separately. Hopefully HE-based tanks like the KV-2 etc. won't be made less enjoyable as a result, but I'm sure you guys have thought of that!

 

Looking forward to seeing the final results of all this shell-rebalancing. :)

 

  well,kv2 will not become"less enjoyable"...will become compleatly useless...oi might make it,becose have another gun available,and his penn on ap and heat is bigger,but mostly it have armour....but kv2 is basicly ded...same to be sayed about hetzer...m4,pz4h,and derivates,allso have other guns choises,with viable options...and about upper ones,well,hep and hesh will be "treated" latly...but judging by how they choose to treat standard he,have little good expectations even in that arrea...long storry short,time of fun for derp lovers come to an end...and for me at least,it will be the end of my relation with wot



ToodlePips #280 Posted 18 October 2019 - 03:28 PM

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I cannot remember people complain about HE, so where does this come from? This whole idea seems to address a problem that did not really exist. Yes, HE in the present form has a high degree of RNG, but that to me that has always been part of the fun of it?! Wargaming have apparently made it their mission to systematically eliminate every element of the game that used to make it enjoyable.




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