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Sandbox HE changes...ruining the fun? Wasting time? Creating issues? My two cents:

HE changes Ammo rebalance

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Poll: HE changes (116 members have cast votes)

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Do you agree with the proposed changes?

  1. I agree with the changes (16 votes [13.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.79%

  2. I disagree with the changes (86 votes [74.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 74.14%

  3. Not sure (14 votes [12.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.07%

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NekoPuffer_PPP #1 Posted 17 October 2019 - 04:55 PM

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https://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/general-news/sandbox-october/

 

Avoiding the issue by diverting attention to a different supposed issue, which isn't even an issue, and whose change will completely destroy the way some of the most iconic and fun tanks in this game work. (KV-2, which I'll address later)

 

That's what I feel is happening here, and I sure ain't happy. I don't see any issue with how HE shells work in their current state, but you guys seem to be implying their labeled alpha damage is somehow an issue, because of the age old "it does more damage so I'll load only HE, who needs AP?" misunderstanding which has been the cause of numerous funny encounters and replays with players shooting exclusively HE.

 

That misunderstanding wouldn't happen at all if you bothered to add such a description in the HE shells' information pop-up window in-game. Many people won't watch tutorials on youtube regarding...well, ANY mechanics of the game, so the more places you put that information into, the more chances for people to understand these things. Bear in mind, I'm talking about the "half damage if no penetration" mechanic being the highlight of the proposed changes.

 

The biggest issue regarding ammunition in this game currently, is premium ammo, which is purposely planned to be left alone, while all other shell types get rebalanced around them...including tanks' HP pools...

 

But why? WHY in the name of God would you treat an issue this way? Why change everything BUT the issue? With the planned changes, premium ammo is supposed to deal less damage than the "buffed" standard shells. So, if that is the solution, why not just do that? Why not just reduce the alpha damage of premium shells, and call it job done?

 

These changes and preparations for them, the test servers and everything, it's just prolonging the issue and creating pointless workarounds which could EASILY get solved with just ONE simple little change - reducing premium ammo alpha damage. I've been saying this ever since the first mention of shell changes.

 

Waste of time, money, and patience.

 

Now about the KV-2, its HE ammo will no longer be able to penetrate armor, and will only deal a maximum of 330 damage when hitting armor...that in itself is a massive hit to arguably one of the most fun and iconic tanks at tier 6, but then we get to the elephant in the room, the KV-2R. What about the KV-2R? Premium tanks aren't allowed to be nerfed, correct me if I'm wrong? I dunno what you expect when the changes come through, but I expect another ****storm about premium tanks and a sea of pay-to-win accusations if the KV-2R remains unaffected.

 

There, my two cents on the matter.



vasilinhorulezz #2 Posted 17 October 2019 - 06:03 PM

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If I got it somewhat right, what I understood about those changes is that, HE shells will have no pen but will do damage based on alpha + armor mitigation (of course with -/+ 25% RNG), so they will do more reliable damage, but won't penetrate for full damage anymore?

If that's the case, what's the friggin' point of using HE guns instead over AP guns anymore (the sole reason of the KV-2 is exactly that > high damage numbers on pen)? And what about the wheelies or tech tree/premium tanks that have high pen HESH rounds, how will they be made different and are premium tanks like 90mm Bulldog or KV-2 R affected by this? Also what was the point of introducing high HE pen guns on the wheeled line in the first place? Also, now the HE gun on the T-49 and Sheridan will be a no skill AP gun?

So, yea I'm not really sure what's this about but unless an official explanation of those mechanics comes up, I won't really comment of if this is good or bad.

 

Edit.

It's out

https://thearmoredpa...in-the-testing/


Edited by vasilinhorulezz, 17 October 2019 - 06:44 PM.


NekoPuffer_PPP #3 Posted 17 October 2019 - 06:29 PM

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"More reliable damage" is misleading. They don't say they'll now deal damage more reliably, they're saying players used them to always deal some damage to a target, but now they won't be able to penetrate.

 

KV-1 122mm gun now: HE - 0 pen, 180 damage / HEAT - 140 pen, 370 damage

 

Yeah, that's never gonna fly. If anything screams pay to win, it's this right here. It's beyond absurd. A huge pointless mess.

 

Also, that ArmoredPatrol article is a copy-paste of the text in WG's article I linked, so...all the same.



Wintermute_1 #4 Posted 17 October 2019 - 06:31 PM

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The MM doesn't work because of pref MM tanks all over again.

wEight_Tanker #5 Posted 17 October 2019 - 06:53 PM

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I guess the "OOORGLE HE GUN MANIACS KILL TEH GAME, WAAAA WAAA" got the Devs' attention somewhat... That is the most bee es thing I've ever seen. I'd rather have that HP Pool and Non-Special ammo buff than this crap.

ziratulbihac #6 Posted 17 October 2019 - 07:09 PM

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Gold Spam and 3 arties seem like a disneyland compared to sandbox disaster. 

vasilinhorulezz #7 Posted 17 October 2019 - 07:09 PM

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I didn't see the article in the WOT page when I logged in,

but anyway,

those are the damage values per caliber, and according to this what I'm concerned now is, if this is a buff or a nerf to hull-down tactics. Like, will HE now overall do less or more damage against heavily armored turrets? Will it now be worth for low caliber guns to carry higher amounts of HE rounds, or will they be made completely useless (my spider-senses say the latter more than the former but, what do I know?)?

And I'll also return to some of my previous questions, how will the derp guns now differentiate from the AP guns? What will be their selling point and what is going to happen with the premium HE guns like the KV-2, should I ask for a refund?

And on the Sheridan and T49, will using the derps be more efficient now that the mediocre AP guns they get?

 

Edit.

Also I forgot, isn't this a direct nerf to premium tanks, now that HE shell will have less DPM than listed, with these changes, or are they gonna buff their reloads when loading HE in order to not affect their DPM at all?


Edited by vasilinhorulezz, 17 October 2019 - 07:22 PM.


ChristOfTheAbyss #8 Posted 17 October 2019 - 07:11 PM

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Seems great, lessens the HE spam. 

NekoPuffer_PPP #9 Posted 17 October 2019 - 07:24 PM

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View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 17 October 2019 - 08:09 PM, said:

I didn't see the article in the WOT page when I logged in,

but anyway,

what I'm concerned now is, if this is a buff or a nerf to hull-down tactics. Like, will HE now overall do less or more damage against heavily armored turrets? Will it now be worth for low caliber guns to carry higher amounts of HE

rounds, or will they be made completely useless (my spider-senses say the latter more than the former but, what do I know?)?

And I'll also return to some of my previous questions, how will the derp guns now differentiate from the AP guns? What will be their selling point and what is going to happen with the premium HE guns like the KV-2, should I ask for a refund?

And on the Sheridan and T49, will using the derps be more efficient now that the mediocre AP guns they get?

 

Smaller caliber HE will theoretically do more splash damage against armor of the same thickness, while large caliber HE will do less.

 

910 alpha on KV-2's HE currently, 330 on the test.

 

Now, splash damage is calculated by halving the alpha damage of a penetrating hit, then spreading that damage over the weakest point of the enemy's armor. This means technically, the KV-2 now has 455 alpha damage if it doesn't penetrate. On the test, it has 330. That's much lower than half.

 

This means if you penetrate only one of two or even three AP shells, you'll do more damage than with three HE shells combined. Not to mention AP damage getting buffed, so you'll do even more if you penetrate.

 

Basically, HE shells are being rendered useless. The KV-2 luckily has AP choices, but what about things like the M4 Sherman or KV-1? Their HE will do 180 or less, while their premium HEAT still has the same 140 pen (KV-1), and 370 alpha (premium shell alpha untouched). That screams pay-to-win out of every pore.

 

KV-2R would probably remain untouched for the following reason: they can't seem to touch premium tanks. If they could nerf their shells, they would've just nerfed premium shell alpha damage and none of these changes and test would be happening. Since they are happening, clearly they can't nerf premium ammo...or they haven't thought of it, which I don't want to believe but it seems more likely by the second...



vasilinhorulezz #10 Posted 17 October 2019 - 07:28 PM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 17 October 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

 

Smaller caliber HE will theoretically do more splash damage against armor of the same thickness, while large caliber HE will do less.

 

910 alpha on KV-2's HE currently, 330 on the test.

 

Now, splash damage is calculated by halving the alpha damage of a penetrating hit, then spreading that damage over the weakest point of the enemy's armor. This means technically, the KV-2 now has 455 alpha damage if it doesn't penetrate. On the test, it has 330. That's much lower than half.

 

This means if you penetrate only one of two or even three AP shells, you'll do more damage than with three HE shells combined. Not to mention AP damage getting buffed, so you'll do even more if you penetrate.

 

Basically, HE shells are being rendered useless. The KV-2 luckily has AP choices, but what about things like the M4 Sherman or KV-1? Their HE will do 180 or less, while their premium HEAT still has the same 140 pen (KV-1), and 370 alpha (premium shell alpha untouched). That screams pay-to-win out of every pore.

 

KV-2R would probably remain untouched for the following reason: they can't seem to touch premium tanks. If they could nerf their shells, they would've just nerfed premium shell alpha damage and none of these changes and test would be happening. Since they are happening, clearly they can't nerf premium ammo...or they haven't thought of it, which I don't want to believe but it seems more likely by the second...


You forget the +25% RNG, so it's 330 -/+25%, so the damage will be up to 412 at the highest roll (still less that it is now). I could be wrong about this though.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #11 Posted 17 October 2019 - 07:42 PM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 17 October 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

But why? WHY in the name of God would you treat an issue this way? Why change everything BUT the issue? With the planned changes, premium ammo is supposed to deal less damage than the "buffed" standard shells. So, if that is the solution, why not just do that? Why not just reduce the alpha damage of premium shells, and call it job done?

 

These changes and preparations for them, the test servers and everything, it's just prolonging the issue and creating pointless workarounds which could EASILY get solved with just ONE simple little change - reducing premium ammo alpha damage. I've been saying this ever since the first mention of shell changes.

 

Because premium tanks. WG will not nerf the gold rounds on premium vehicles end of subject. If you've got a solution to the problem that takes that into account then let's hear it. 



Frostilicus #12 Posted 17 October 2019 - 07:42 PM

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Hmm, sell KV-2, keep KV-2R if you are correct, OP :)

gbaj #13 Posted 17 October 2019 - 07:55 PM

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Negative dont do it

NekoPuffer_PPP #14 Posted 17 October 2019 - 08:00 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 17 October 2019 - 08:42 PM, said:

Because premium tanks. WG will not nerf the gold rounds on premium vehicles end of subject. If you've got a solution to the problem that takes that into account then let's hear it. 

 

This "solution" they're proposing only creates more problems. The KV-2R as a prime example would retain penetration on its HE shells, rendering the standard KV-2's derp useless in comparison.

 

There is no way out of this. They locked themselves in this trap by the rules about paid products, which cannot get nerfed because people might want refunds.

 

The only way to remove the lock keeping premium tanks from being nerfed, is to change the rules.

 

Such products should be subject to change in favor of game balance, buying them should mean people agree to this rule upon purchase of said product, and their stats can be changed accordingly, for better or worse.

 

The game's not at fault, the rule of online ownership is. The core of the problem is just that one rule.



Balc0ra #15 Posted 17 October 2019 - 08:26 PM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 17 October 2019 - 08:00 PM, said:

 

This "solution" they're proposing only creates more problems. The KV-2R as a prime example would retain penetration on its HE shells, rendering the standard KV-2's derp useless in comparison.

There is no way out of this. They locked themselves in this trap by the rules about paid products, which cannot get nerfed because people might want refunds.

The only way to remove the lock keeping premium tanks from being nerfed, is to change the rules.

 

They should go by guns creating such issues, and not caliber alone affecting everything. As an E100 spamming HE vs a Maus is not the same as a KV-2 or SU-152 spamming HE vs a VK 100.01 if you will... IMO.

 

And yes there would be gaps vs premiums. EBR 75s HE pen vs the other wheels. Gr.Tr and BT-7A vs the M2 Medium on low tiers. Hwk 30 and M41GF have high HE pen and alpha too. So they would be the ultimate LT counters. So if they remain the same for obvious reasons. It would create a new gaps indeed as all past class or gun changes have done.

 

As for changing the rules. You do recall what did happen to the KV-5 and the suggested changes there. Or even the T26E4. That caos was for one tank. Now imagine how that would be if 10 or more premiums people had got drastically changed. 

 

But again, it's a test. Not final. Arty was tested the same way early on with no alpha and 1mm HE pen. As they worked their way up. Not down. So let's see where they end up first before we "panic".



24doom24 #16 Posted 17 October 2019 - 08:29 PM

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As usual WG fails to have the mental capacity to look at issues on a per tank basis and just nerf the whole thing instead and call it "fixed".

 

Typical WG:sceptic:

 


Edited by 24doom24, 17 October 2019 - 08:29 PM.


Shacou #17 Posted 17 October 2019 - 08:31 PM

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WoT keeps rolling over itself with these major changes, I feel like we're going to return to phase 1, Where we all started.
Gold will be rebalanced to do lower dmg, HE will do close to none damage. The only choices will be flanking with AP/APCR ammo.

 

ziratulbihac #18 Posted 17 October 2019 - 08:42 PM

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If this goes live.. = GG WoT hello something else. 

Negativvv #19 Posted 17 October 2019 - 09:21 PM

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The change is mystifying, why was HE a problem?

 

It was always a niche weapon beyond mid tier, for trolling rather than serious play... 



HassenderZerhacker #20 Posted 17 October 2019 - 09:29 PM

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View PostwEight_Tanker, on 17 October 2019 - 06:53 PM, said:

I guess the "OOORGLE HE GUN MANIACS KILL TEH GAME, WAAAA WAAA" got the Devs' attention somewhat... That is the most bee es thing I've ever seen. I'd rather have that HP Pool and Non-Special ammo buff than this crap.

 

well, it's not wrong, but the only HE guns that were a problem were/are Type 5, FV183b and FV4005. the others not so much. it seems particularly dumb to go nerf regular HE instead of the GOLD AMMO everyone is complaining about. it's especially DUMB because it's the WG devs who put the problematic HE guns, the 3 I mentioned before, into the game in the first place. Instead of repairing their error, they go screw up other parts of the game.

20:32 Added after 2 minute

View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 17 October 2019 - 07:09 PM, said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't see the article in the WOT page when I logged in,

but anyway,

those are the damage values per caliber, and according to this what I'm concerned now is, if this is a buff or a nerf to hull-down tactics. Like, will HE now overall do less or more damage against heavily armored turrets? Will it now be worth for low caliber guns to carry higher amounts of HE rounds, or will they be made completely useless (my spider-senses say the latter more than the former but, what do I know?)?

And I'll also return to some of my previous questions, how will the derp guns now differentiate from the AP guns? What will be their selling point and what is going to happen with the premium HE guns like the KV-2, should I ask for a refund?

And on the Sheridan and T49, will using the derps be more efficient now that the mediocre AP guns they get?

 

Edit.

Also I forgot, isn't this a direct nerf to premium tanks, now that HE shell will have less DPM than listed, with these changes, or are they gonna buff their reloads when loading HE in order to not affect their DPM at all?

 

my reading is that it will do MORE damage to heavily armored tanks.


Edited by HassenderZerhacker, 17 October 2019 - 09:30 PM.





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