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Regarding the changes [nerf] of the HE, "rebalancing" of the special ammunition and buff of ...

ammo rebalance sandbox test special ammunition gold spam HE

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TungstenHitman #21 Posted 18 October 2019 - 03:03 PM

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I hear The Witcher 3 is an excellent game?

te3434 #22 Posted 18 October 2019 - 03:03 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 18 October 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

 

1. Who says it is easily going to be destroyed? I mean from the vid QB did, he was doing like 11 damage to the front on an O-Ni with an M4 derp, so that O-Ni is going to have to be on very low HP for one HE round to finish it off.

 

HE spam is a problem IMO but largely related to large calibre HE guns, do you see KV-2s use AP ever? I don't even though its penetration and overmatch ability against many targets would make it a more reliable option. How many 183s use AP? Japanese heavy players still won't use the AP guns in most cases. 

 

There is loads of HE spam at the moment IMO.

 

I don't think it doing minute levels of damage is going to increase it.

 

3. The game has no real basis in reality anyway, its about balance not history and when has mediocre armour ever been useful, being a bit 'HE proof' hardly changes a tank from average to good or from bad to average etc. Plus most of these derp gun options have AP rounds with high damage, a KV-2 can still do 700 damage with 110mm of penetration and the ability to overmatch 50mm of armour as well, so lightly armoured tanks can still take huge damage from these derp guns.

 

Clearly WG doesn't want HE to be a primary damage dealer and I agree with them, they want AP/standard APCR to be the biggest damage dealer, HE then has a different role of doing less damage but some damage without requiring pen.

 

High explosive will still do splash damage and do damage without penetration that other rounds can't, so I see no reason to change the name. 

 

 

1. Yea, ok about that point. I haven't tested it. The finishing low hp is the least problem.

 

Why would you ever see a howitzer primarily shooting AP?!

 

Yes, there is HE "spam" (if the definition is: often use), but there is no problem about it. So, i guess u just don't like high callibers as your enemy, so you would like them to shoot lousy AP rounds. If that is the best option for them, then those vehicles should definitely be removed from the game (because otherwise it would be nonsense of existance).

You should say "I hate them, make a special mod without them" or "make the whole game suits people like me, and f*** any logic, because, who cares", so you can enjoy the game.

 

3. The fact that many players fail to remember to use HE on paper tanks, doesn't mean mediocre armor is useless. When I flank a Nashorn, I'll use HE on my 75mm gun to do 175 dmg instead of 110, and that makes the difference between Nashorn's armor and Tiger's armor (which is mediocre). With the change, there will be only top-armored tanks, and useless-armor tanks (nothing between).

 

The problem with AP on high calliber howitzer is that the guns are inaccurate, so it will often hit just track, or bounce, so you get no dmg. AP is simply much less effective than HE on howitzers, and that's the way it should be.

 

The name change was a joke, but: what about no armor case? (open top turrets, etc). So AP will do more dmg in that case too? "High-Explosive" would not be suitable name there. Instead, lets make a real suggestion, it should be called "Splash Damage Shell" or something.



ValkyrionX #23 Posted 18 October 2019 - 03:10 PM

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View Postte3434, on 18 October 2019 - 03:03 PM, said:

 

 

 

The name change was a joke, but: what about no armor case? (open top turrets, etc). So AP will do more dmg in that case too? "High-Explosive" would not be suitable name there. Instead, lets make a real suggestion, it should be called "Splash Damage Shell" or something.

 

damn I had not thought of it .. now I imagine the turret of a hellcat that is not penetrated by an opponent's HE in the upper part where no armor is present but that HE magically hangs on an invisible armor .. LOL


Edited by ValkyrionX, 18 October 2019 - 03:12 PM.


te3434 #24 Posted 18 October 2019 - 03:15 PM

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View PostValkyrionX, on 18 October 2019 - 02:10 PM, said:

 

damn I had not thought of it .. now I imagine the turret of a hellcat that is not penetrated by an opponent's HE in the upper part where no armor is present but that HE magically hangs on an invisible armor .. LOL

 

I guess they would be making some exceptions in the system for the no armor case, instead of making the basics right. With more exceptions, it means that something is just not right.



tajj7 #25 Posted 18 October 2019 - 03:18 PM

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View Postte3434, on 18 October 2019 - 02:03 PM, said:

 

1. Yea, ok about that point. I haven't tested it. The finishing low hp is the least problem.

 

Why would you ever see a howitzer primarily shooting AP?!

 

Yes, there is HE "spam" (if the definition is: often use), but there is no problem about it. So, i guess u just don't like high callibers as your enemy, so you would like them to shoot lousy AP rounds. If that is the best option for them, then those vehicles should definitely be removed from the game (because otherwise it would be nonsense of existance).

You should say "I hate them, make a special mod without them" or "make the whole game suits people like me, and f*** any logic, because, who cares", so you can enjoy the game.

 

3. The fact that many players fail to remember to use HE on paper tanks, doesn't mean mediocre armor is useless. When I flank a Nashorn, I'll use HE on my 75mm gun to do 175 dmg instead of 110, and that makes the difference between Nashorn's armor and Tiger's armor (which is mediocre). With the change, there will be only top-armored tanks, and useless-armor tanks (nothing between).

 

The problem with AP on high calliber howitzer is that the guns are inaccurate, so it will often hit just track, or bounce, so you get no dmg. AP is simply much less effective than HE on howitzers, and that's the way it should be.

 

The name change was a joke, but: what about no armor case? (open top turrets, etc). So AP will do more dmg in that case too? "High-Explosive" would not be suitable name there. Instead, lets make a real suggestion, it should be called "Splash Damage Shell" or something.

 

The game is arcadey, we have tanks that auto-maitcally repair their tracks instantly and have HP pools, so why would 'howitzers' be a problem shooting AP when they are literally all just guns IRL anyway.

 

A Sherman with a 105mm gun is just short barrelled 105mm gun, the M46 Patton's 105mm has a better HE round, same calibre, does more damage, its all just made up numbers.

 

And yes they inaccurate but is that not supposed to be your draw back to doing higher damage, the KV-2 AP round does 700 damage, most tier 6 tanks barely have that much HP, shouldn't it be inaccurate compared to a 76mm gun that does 115 damage? Of course it should.

 

Plus overmatch is a thing especially for the 150mm plus guns, they can overmatch 40mm and 50mm armour in some cases, there are tier 5 and 6 mediums that the vast majority of them is auto-pen to 152mm AP because it overmatches them whatever the angle. 

 

But people don't think about these things because they just derp around with brainless HE, if they don't pen, oh-well still do like 400 damage more than many higher tier tanks do with their standard rounds and a bit of RNG and bam you are one shot.

 

As I said the Tiger's armour will still trouble KV-2 152mm AP, a Nashorn's won't.  A Tiger's armour will trouble an M4 Derp's HEAT round, a Nashorn won't, so your difference in armour still applies it is just working against different types of ammo. 



te3434 #26 Posted 18 October 2019 - 04:07 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 18 October 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:

 

The game is arcadey, we have tanks that auto-maitcally repair their tracks instantly and have HP pools, so why would 'howitzers' be a problem shooting AP when they are literally all just guns IRL anyway.

 

A Sherman with a 105mm gun is just short barrelled 105mm gun, the M46 Patton's 105mm has a better HE round, same calibre, does more damage, its all just made up numbers.

 

And yes they inaccurate but is that not supposed to be your draw back to doing higher damage, the KV-2 AP round does 700 damage, most tier 6 tanks barely have that much HP, shouldn't it be inaccurate compared to a 76mm gun that does 115 damage? Of course it should.

 

Plus overmatch is a thing especially for the 150mm plus guns, they can overmatch 40mm and 50mm armour in some cases, there are tier 5 and 6 mediums that the vast majority of them is auto-pen to 152mm AP because it overmatches them whatever the angle. 

 

But people don't think about these things because they just derp around with brainless HE, if they don't pen, oh-well still do like 400 damage more than many higher tier tanks do with their standard rounds and a bit of RNG and bam you are one shot.

 

As I said the Tiger's armour will still trouble KV-2 152mm AP, a Nashorn's won't.  A Tiger's armour will trouble an M4 Derp's HEAT round, a Nashorn won't, so your difference in armour still applies it is just working against different types of ammo. 

 

Auto repair tracks and HP pools in general is a bit dumb, but relatively ok, in the goal of arcadeness.

 

AP shooting howitzer is not a problem, it is just dumb if that is the better choice for it.

 

Yes indeed, Sherman's 105mm howitzer and Patton's 105mm gun are basicaly the same thing with different barrel length and different amount of shell propellant. There is no technical difference between guns and howitzers. The difference is in role and inteneded primary ammo.

 

On the contrary: howitzers should not have strong AP rounds (like KV-2 with premium AP of 136mm pen), because that is a disbalance if they have the ability to do much damage to good armors by penetrating them. The change would just twist the numbers of high callibers: lots of explosive charge will do low dmg (where is logic?), and low velocity does good penetration (since we are not talking about HEAT, again, where is the logic?!).

 

KV-2 comparing to other tier 6 is not superior. It can't reliably hit at high distance, has high reload time, etc. If it shoots only AP, it would become one of the worst tier 6. As a compensation, they could increase its pen or dpm, but wait a minute! Is that what you want? You can either get it highly nerfed, or "disbalanced" in an other way. And KV-2's good side is the HE shell, the only good thing (beside the not-too-bad armor), otherwise it would not be KV-2 if it can pen thick armor or if it reloads fast or similar (better remove it from the game than lie to players that there is KV-2 in the game, oh wait, who is the target group? some completely uninformed people who don't know what a tank is?).

 

Again, howitzers are made to shoot HE primarily, with low velocity. Otherwise those would be also guns (as you said, the technical difference is just in numbers). And KV-2 with a gun is not KV-2. That would be to achieve arcade game with completely neglecting reality background, just because of creative inability to think of better solutions (the game could be both arcade and realistic, WG just seems to fail in it miserably, and continues to make it worse).

 

If the small amount of logic disappears from the game, I'll have no reason to play it anymore.


Edited by te3434, 18 October 2019 - 04:09 PM.


mjs_89 #27 Posted 18 October 2019 - 10:51 PM

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My two cents:

I disagree with the majority of OP's proposals. His proposal regarding special shells is just too convoluted and would turn any on-the-spot damage/dpm calculations in the heat of battle into rocket science. 

I also don't support the idea of treating HE shells differently for regular/dedicated guns. The reason for that is simple: some tanks with regular guns have better-than-average HE shells to give them an additional choice wich can be very effective if used smart. Think about high-tier german LTs or MTs (Leo line). I don't see why my Leo PTA should have 0 pen with HE while my Hetzer still has a chance to pen with HE. That's just silly imo.

 

The stuff WG is/was testing is complete nonsense IMO. Buffing hp-pools, increasing alpha on standart rounds, HE-rebalancing... All of that is completely unneccessary.

 

I think they only need to do 2 things:

1) Give tanks proper weakspots

2) Limit the amountof non-standard shells that a tank can carry (someone suggested 20% somewhere in this thread, that seems like a good starting point)

 

If players had a reasonable chance to damage everything they meet while only using standard ammo, and only had a limited amount of special/HE rounds, I'm fairly sure both gold and HE spam would be a thing of the past rather soon.

Just look at FL, most people take zero special rounds into battle, only because standard ammo is sufficient.

 

So what about derp guns? Well, imo derp guns are fine.

Sure, they are inaccurate and inconsistent, but have the ability to severely damage targets if used properly. And I get that getting oneshot, especially in higher tiers, is not the best gaming expirience. But, to be fair, neither is getting clipped by a Bat-Chat and noone's crying for the removal of clip guns.

Having the choice of clicking battle in a derp tank over one with a regular gun adds more variety to the game and opens up more different tactics in battle, wich is a huge plus for overall enjoyment in my book.



te3434 #28 Posted 19 October 2019 - 12:43 PM

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View Postmjs_89, on 18 October 2019 - 09:51 PM, said:

My two cents:

I disagree with the majority of OP's proposals. His proposal regarding special shells is just too convoluted and would turn any on-the-spot damage/dpm calculations in the heat of battle into rocket science. 

I also don't support the idea of treating HE shells differently for regular/dedicated guns. The reason for that is simple: some tanks with regular guns have better-than-average HE shells to give them an additional choice wich can be very effective if used smart. Think about high-tier german LTs or MTs (Leo line). I don't see why my Leo PTA should have 0 pen with HE while my Hetzer still has a chance to pen with HE. That's just silly imo.

 

The stuff WG is/was testing is complete nonsense IMO. Buffing hp-pools, increasing alpha on standart rounds, HE-rebalancing... All of that is completely unneccessary.

 

I think they only need to do 2 things:

1) Give tanks proper weakspots

2) Limit the amountof non-standard shells that a tank can carry (someone suggested 20% somewhere in this thread, that seems like a good starting point)

 

If players had a reasonable chance to damage everything they meet while only using standard ammo, and only had a limited amount of special/HE rounds, I'm fairly sure both gold and HE spam would be a thing of the past rather soon.

Just look at FL, most people take zero special rounds into battle, only because standard ammo is sufficient.

 

So what about derp guns? Well, imo derp guns are fine.

Sure, they are inaccurate and inconsistent, but have the ability to severely damage targets if used properly. And I get that getting oneshot, especially in higher tiers, is not the best gaming expirience. But, to be fair, neither is getting clipped by a Bat-Chat and noone's crying for the removal of clip guns.

Having the choice of clicking battle in a derp tank over one with a regular gun adds more variety to the game and opens up more different tactics in battle, which is a huge plus for overall enjoyment in my book.

 

I pretty much agree with all of you said.



Blubba #29 Posted 19 October 2019 - 01:35 PM

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I don't think it's a great idea but I don't honestly know how it will work out. Some tanks will cease to be useful or at least as useful. Tanks that offered something different will all but disappear. Large calibre HE guns were a thing and damaged a lot more than tracks. 

The PzIV, Sherman, Hetzer and KV-2 to name but a few. The differences between them and their peers is now far less distinct.

The cynic in me suggests this is a way in which WG are pushing you to a more monetised system. Slowly funnelling everyone away from anything useful except premium rounds. Premium time/tanks in order to run old derp gunned tanks that now spam gold to compete.

I hope it's not the case but only time will tell I guess.


Edited by Blubba, 19 October 2019 - 01:35 PM.


lnfernaI #30 Posted 19 October 2019 - 01:44 PM

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tl;dr OP crying about his HE spam becoming less viable.

_1111_ #31 Posted 20 October 2019 - 03:38 AM

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View Postte3434, on 18 October 2019 - 01:28 PM, said:

my entire post erased somehow :(

 

It happens. This forum gets scrubbed and edited mysteriously all the time. And it is not a technical issue. Your posts don't get erased if you praise Wargaming and don't propose any improvements to the World of Tanks. As we all know, you can't improve something that is already perfect and divine :)

.



shikaka9 #32 Posted 20 October 2019 - 07:11 AM

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I really expected to do "double gun HE fun" :angry:

Marybanks #33 Posted 23 October 2019 - 09:48 PM

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View PostChristOfTheAbyss, on 18 October 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

 

This is perfectly on line what I think.

 

Ammo and HP changes seem great, but the weakspots need to come back on all tanks and pennable to all tanks they meet. If you want Type 5 to be playing against t8s, IS-3 has to be able to do something against it. Make angling and using your armour and hiding your weakspots a skill again!

14:00 Added after 1 minute

 

How do you fix them on tanks that DO use them as primary ammo?

My point exactly. What about those tanks with derp guns? 
-The Hetzer
- The Sherman tanks

- The Pz IV H 
and ofc everyone's favorite, (or the favorite of most players of the game); The KV-2
even a low tier tankdestroyer, has it's HE rounds as it's only bright side. Rest of it is crap.
And what about the artillery?
I know some hate it that much, that they don't really care. But the artillery have suffered enough already. No reason to make it all worse. What if it was your favorite tank-class getting those nerfs, the artillery has got?
No XP for damage dealt. Nerfing upon nerfing of the accuracy on even perfectly, and fully aimed shots, so that 1 out of 20 shots hit the designated target(s)?
I would rather suggest leave HE and AP rounds, and limit the amount of special rounds on tanks.
Sorry to ask, but how much does Wargaming even make of special rounds bought with credits? And when ever you miss or bounce a special round, you lose credits. And YES special rounds can bounce. Just as well as any other type of ammunition. And those special rounds are wasted and unnecessary, in the first few tiers, as the tanks on tier 1, 2 and 3 are weakspots on tracks in most cases. If regular rounds doesn't work, load some HE rounds instead. They deal damage, and if they bounce, you don't lose credits like if it has been a special round.
It is the easy access to special rounds... that makes it a hard entrance for new players, way more, than the use of HE.
Wargaming, if you want to make players feel welcome, help the new ones dealing with it. And find a way to sort the seal clubbers away from the new players. Add a section to the bootcamp in stead, where you teach the players to deal with artillery. 
But how, do you deal with artillery?
Well, one thing to do, is in case artillery is in play, make sure to keep moving. It's harder for an artillerist to hit a target being on the move.
Let them learn to recognize the mark of artillery on the map. It means; "Aiming here" which is at the same time a hidden request of the nearby allies to lit the targets and if possible keep it pinned in place and stay alive as long as ever possible.
Bring the common value of artillery players up. So that players for the future will go at least trying to defend the artillery, or at least revenge it, if the defense and rescuing of the artillery isn't possible.
Just a few things to start off with.
 

Getting back to the main track; It's not HE making new players quitting again, and make the game unwelcome to them. It's the nonsense toxicity, the lag of acknowledge that the current player, might be new to the game, which means there are things this person haven't learned yet, rather than a selfish ignorant type only thinking of himself. Which most of those shouters most likely do themselves. So it is more the tone in the game and the un-necessary over-use of ammunition rounds not even ...well, necessary, to get damage dealt to tanks on the tiers 1, 2 and 3.






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