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There is only one way to balance premium ammo...limitation by percentage [LEGIT SUGGESTION]

5% Special ammo Suggestion

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Poll: Premium ammo limitation by percentage (61 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battle in order to participate this poll.

Do you believe this could work?

  1. It would! (18 votes [29.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.51%

  2. It might... (11 votes [18.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.03%

  3. It won't. (32 votes [52.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.46%

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NekoPuffer_PPP #1 Posted 18 October 2019 - 11:25 PM

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I have had it with top tier tanks spamming premium ammo into everything, it's gone beyond ridiculous...why is a top tier heavy tank allowed to repeatedly shoot HEAT into tanks two tiers lower? How is that fair play?

 

So I've brainstormed a suggestion:


Limit it by the matchmaking!

 

In a three tier battle:

The amount of premium ammo carried by top tier vehicles should not exceed 5% of their total ammo capacity.

The amount of premium ammo carried by mid tier vehicles should not exceed 10% of their total ammo capacity.

The amount of premium ammo carried by bottom tier vehicles should not exceed 20% of their total ammo capacity.

 

In a two tier battle:

The amount of premium ammo carried by top tier vehicles should not exceed 10% of their total ammo capacity.

The amount of premium ammo carried by bottom tier vehicles should not exceed 15% of their total ammo capacity.

 

In a one tier battle:

The amount of premium ammo carried by top tier vehicles should not exceed 10% of their total ammo capacity.


How it would work:

The amount of premium shells available is chosen automatically, you only need to choose how much standard ammo you carry, and an automated system will convert a certain amount of carried standard shells into premium ones, adjusted by the amount of HE shells you choose to carry. (ex: 40 AP/10 HE layout converts 5 shells into premium creating a 35 AP/5 APCR/ 10 HE layout when 10% of premium is allowed) In this instance, premium ammo is paid by the amount fired during battle, meaning it cannot be pre-purchased in the services menu.


 

This way, using premium ammo would require more thought! It would make thinking and planning during the countdown screen more relevant again! Make it a thinking man's shooter, instead of removing crucial strategic aspects by allowing highrollers to carry full premium loadouts into battle and not caring what part of the enemy armor their shell hits...

 

I think premium ammo should be called special ammo, but in a different sense, where it is available only in limited amounts, and should be used wisely, when it is really needed, instead of whenever.

 

Side note: I remember an old PS2 tank game where carrying more effective ammo reduced the total amount of ammo you could carry, which forced you to choose wisely.

 

I just wanna make a change...consider it as a test option, test it on the sandbox server some day! Please listen!

 

Edit: added poll


Edited by NekoPuffer_PPP, 18 October 2019 - 11:28 PM.


Spurtung #2 Posted 18 October 2019 - 11:56 PM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 18 October 2019 - 10:25 PM, said:

why is a top tier heavy tank allowed to repeatedly shoot HEAT into tanks two tiers lower? How is that fair play?

 

What difference does it make that people choose to waste credits that way?



fwhaatpiraat #3 Posted 19 October 2019 - 12:05 AM

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Block Quote

 Make it a thinking man's shooter

 

Playing Maus, Type 5, Bobject 430U, etc. would require a lot of thinking.

Balc0ra #4 Posted 19 October 2019 - 12:09 AM

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It's been suggested before. And tbh... with some of the power gaps of late, I doubt it will shift balance the right way all the time. As some HT's can even pen equal tiers with 5% as is. Like the IS-6 vs VK 100.01. Or what about stock grinds?

 



Homer_J #5 Posted 19 October 2019 - 12:49 AM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 18 October 2019 - 11:25 PM, said:

I have had it with top tier tanks spamming premium ammo into everything, it's gone beyond ridiculous...why is a top tier heavy tank allowed to repeatedly shoot HEAT into tanks two tiers lower? How is that fair play?

 

What does it matter that a tank two tiers higher which can penetrate you with standard ammo is shooting you with premium?  It makes no difference at all except they waste credits.

 

Your suggestion was tried in the defunct historical battles, all that happens is people shoot their premium ammo then yolo off to die so they can start another battle.



NekoPuffer_PPP #6 Posted 19 October 2019 - 01:18 AM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 19 October 2019 - 01:09 AM, said:

It's been suggested before. And tbh... with some of the power gaps of late, I doubt it will shift balance the right way all the time. As some HT's can even pen equal tiers with 5% as is. Like the IS-6 vs VK 100.01. Or what about stock grinds?

 

People keep thinking they should be able to pen everything frontally...

 

That's not always the right thing to do.

 

Apart from the Obj. 268 4...most super-heavily armored vehicles are slow, and even like the 268 4, they turn slowly. Load standard ammo and shoot their sides! If that's not an option, try shooting the other tanks, and if that fails relocate or face the consequences...if you're too slow to relocate, you probably have enough armor to withstand their attack, at least somewhat, until the rest of your team who have fallen back and/or flanked around perform a pincer maneuver.

 

Pick your targets, don't let them pick you, eh?

 

To be fair on this point...most maps don't always allow such gameplay...but that's down to the maps.

 

View Postfwhaatpiraat, on 19 October 2019 - 01:05 AM, said:

Playing Maus, Type 5, Bobject 430U, etc. would require a lot of thinking.

 

Ah well, Maus' would just have to keep angling, and its gun doesn't have the best pen so, well...it could still carry 6-7 premium shells in a full tier 10 matchup with my suggestion, keep that in mind. Even now I only carry 10 in mine.

 

Type 5 could breathe a little easier. We all know, as soon as people load gold, its armor is cheese. Its commander hatch is small but still penetrable.

 

430U is ripe for nerfing. Its commander hatches are just bait, both at least 270/300mm thick effetively. I tried shooting down onto one this evening with the Maus, bounced every shot off them...got sidehugged, had no other option.

 

They'd all still be killable. Like I said, 6-7 shells should be enough for a Maus to take down another Maus.



Robbie_T #7 Posted 19 October 2019 - 04:33 AM

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I like it ...but some tanks need a rework than.

But it would solve the mindless 2 button if you have limited ammo of some type.

 



Negativvv #8 Posted 19 October 2019 - 07:42 AM

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Your proposal would have to mean automatic ammo costs otherwise the amount in credits paid for ammo would be change depending on the MM.

 

Also a percentage of total loadout in gold would need a bit of thought as German HTs for instance have shedloads of ammo so a percentage of that is loads still. What about autoloaders? They'll need it rounded up to per clip.

 

Gold ammo is difficult as anyone using it will out perform someone who doesn't if their skill levels are similar.

 

I'd also give bottom tier a lot more gold... Sometimes as bottom tier HT, if I can't go with the Meds then I'll often full gold Vs the higher tier HTs. 

 

Gold works both ways. It helps lower tiers compete as well as allowing top tiers to troll. Although a top tier blasting gold at -2 is just trolling as chances are they won't need it anyway...



ValkyrionX #9 Posted 19 October 2019 - 09:15 AM

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I also proposed a similar thing several times, but this proposal to limit the special ammo makes no sense if the tanks in the game remain as they are now.

 

the balance of weakspots must go hand in hand with this potential change



BravelyRanAway #10 Posted 19 October 2019 - 09:44 AM

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.....or leave premium rounds as they are, but just increase the loading time for premium rounds by a second(or what ever time may appear appropriate).

Players still get to have expensive kills or waste credits, but at the cost of the enemy getting closer if it's not a kill shot.;)

It may be the simplest way to level the playing field without too much rework by the devs.



Dava_117 #11 Posted 19 October 2019 - 10:04 AM

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There is just a problem this solution gives. Heavily depends on the ammo capacity and alpha of tanks.

In my E100 I have something like 50-60 shells. 10% here are 5-6 HEAT. That is 3750-4500 potential damage.

At the same time my IS-4 carries 30 shells. 10% here are just 3 HEAT rounds that are 1320 potential damage. There is a huge difference here! The E100 can shoot down a maus and a half while the IS-4 can barely scratch a single maus!



UrQuan #12 Posted 19 October 2019 - 10:20 AM

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The example you give is a pretty bad one tbh. If someone can easily pen you with standard ammo (like a 2 tier higher tank shooting you), you want HEAT to be shot at you! This is because HEAT has several drawbacks that don't go away enough at light armor, meaning that you got more chance getting no damage from a HEAT shell then a high pen AP/APCR/HE/HESH round.

 

Your selection mechanism is also pretty good for WG, because you don't have a say if you want 0 prem ammo. There's a few tanks where I don't load prem shells but still got standard & HE.(most tanks of mine got a mix of standard prem & HE tho). With your mechanism, I'm forced to carry prem shells. 

 

That said your proposal would only buff armored tanks. There's plenty in the game; armored meds, TD's & HT's & the recent map (re)designs made sure flanking gets harder & harder. Even for HT's in city-maps as the long crossings really hamper your ability to go in & flank the others so you're forced to sit there & exchange shots.

What your proposal would achieve is more HE being shot tho, making life even harder for low armored tanks. Don't know about you but if I'm being shot at, I prefer being shot at by premium shells, not HE.

You can already see this ingame. With the increase of armor people are less reluctant to carry large amounts of HE & shoot it. Your proposal would enhance HE being fired (especially due to the way you made the prem ammo selection procedure work)

 

Limiting premium ammo would make alot more sense if it would come with a global armor rework because as it is, several tanks are way too armored & way too hard to kill with standard ammo. Designing maps with better passages & stuff would also help to nullify armor advantage as well as it would make flanking a workable solution. And not only for meds & lights, but also heavies. 

Currently, armored tanks are just too strong in the game, with not enough drawbacks (no your tank crawling at 15km/h is not enough drawback if it has good armor, good gun & good viewrange!)

 

Issue with most proposals is that it doesn't go at the core of the issue, namely the increased preference of prem ammo above standard shells. A proposal to reduce prem ammo shells should include a way that makes it more beneficial to shoot standard ammo above prem ammo in most cases. I've been a fan of the reduced damage for prem ammo for more pen for quite some time (albeit this can only work properly nowadays with an armor rebalance).

PS: WG's approach regarding this on the testserver is really awkward; HP increase for lower tiers (and likely select higher tier tanks/classes) & increasing standard ammo damage? Sounds like a serious workaround that can introduce new & unforeseen issues without addressing the core of the issue: too many heavy armored vehicles.


Edited by UrQuan, 19 October 2019 - 10:27 AM.


ChristOfTheAbyss #13 Posted 19 October 2019 - 10:21 AM

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Cant really touch prem ammo in any way without touching over buffed armour.

Negativvv #14 Posted 19 October 2019 - 10:44 AM

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View PostDava_117, on 19 October 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

There is just a problem this solution gives. Heavily depends on the ammo capacity and alpha of tanks.

In my E100 I have something like 50-60 shells. 10% here are 5-6 HEAT. That is 3750-4500 potential damage.

At the same time my IS-4 carries 30 shells. 10% here are just 3 HEAT rounds that are 1320 potential damage. There is a huge difference here! The E100 can shoot down a maus and a half while the IS-4 can barely scratch a single maus!

Maybe allow X amount of potential damage in gold out of the total potential damage capacity in total ammo instead? 

 

Although that will mean stuff like Manticore and Bat Chat could go almost full gold as their ammo capacity is small....



Dava_117 #15 Posted 19 October 2019 - 10:52 AM

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View PostNegativvv, on 19 October 2019 - 10:44 AM, said:

Maybe allow X amount of potential damage in gold out of the total potential damage capacity in total ammo instead? 

 

Although that will mean stuff like Manticore and Bat Chat could go almost full gold as their ammo capacity is small....

 

Yeh that's the point. 

IMO, having premium ammo doing less damage than standard one is the way to go. It adds an hard drawback, forcing people to chose between pen and DPM/alpha.

So, if a tier 10 still spam premium ammo, even tier 8 may be able to outdpm or outtrade it. 



TheKing99 #16 Posted 19 October 2019 - 10:54 AM

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Posts like these fail to convince me. I can see 'what', I can see 'why', but I cannot for the life of me see 'how'.

 

Nice formatting, though. A notch above your common 'remove X from the game' topics for that - alone.


Edited by TheKing99, 19 October 2019 - 10:54 AM.


Mr_Burrows #17 Posted 19 October 2019 - 11:21 AM

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Why? What would the benefit be, other than making heavy tanks and over armored TD's even more OP? 

 

I want that as an alternative in the poll, btw. As it stands right now the idea of voting is preposterous as all the answers are skewed. 



DaddysLittlePrincess #18 Posted 19 October 2019 - 11:27 AM

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FCM 50 t (tier 8) ammo capacity: 91 shells - 10% is 9 shells - dmg potential = 2160

Manticore (tier 10) ammo capacity: 20 shells - 10% is 2 shells - dmg potential = 780

 

Yeah, great idea :facepalm:



Negativvv #19 Posted 19 October 2019 - 12:00 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 19 October 2019 - 10:52 AM, said:

 

Yeh that's the point. 

IMO, having premium ammo doing less damage than standard one is the way to go. It adds an hard drawback, forcing people to chose between pen and DPM/alpha.

So, if a tier 10 still spam premium ammo, even tier 8 may be able to outdpm or outtrade it. 

A slower gold round reload might affect low DPM tanks far more however? For instance an Object 140 isn't going to care for a slower reload in exchange for firing HEAT but a Lowe will as the German tank's DPM is already trash.



Sirebellus #20 Posted 19 October 2019 - 12:00 PM

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limiting ammo type by percentages is never going to work unless every tank has the same Ammo capacity, otherwise it is just a buff to tanks with high ammo levels

 

One way to reduce both premium ammo spamming would be to make the reload time 15-20% longer for 'Special' than for the vehicles Standard ammo... you can still fire as much Special ammo as you want and it is just as effective against your opponent, but because you are slower firing your opponent has more chance to counter you.

A superheavy tank still gets destroyed in the same number of shots, but because those shots take longer the superheavy just has more time to make an effect in the game







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