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Should Derp tanks be saved?

HE Derp Sandbox Sand Box

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Poll: Should derp tanks be saved? (174 members have cast votes)

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Should HE shells continue to have penetration values?

  1. Yes (139 votes [79.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 79.89%

  2. No (35 votes [20.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.11%

Do HE penetration values need nerfing?

  1. Yes (48 votes [27.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 27.59%

  2. No (126 votes [72.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 72.41%

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Gixxer66 #21 Posted 26 November 2019 - 04:28 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 26 November 2019 - 02:58 PM, said

 

Most of those derp tanks are broken/borderline OP and them getting a slight nerf seems good for the game IMO, especially at lower tiers where they are a complete nonsense, along with tanks like the T67 and stats padders they make the experience for newer players horrible, peek a corner, get one shot by a KV-2/M4 derp/Hetzer etc. much fun......

 

This is where I disagree with you - all those tanks listed KV2, M4, PzIVH, Hetzer, Stug IIIB, Cruiser etc are all easily unlocked by new players, unlike some of the CW reward tanks that are blatanty OP, or OP Premium tanks that require real money to buy.

 

Most have as many draw backs to counter the one shot capability. Get caught between reloads in KV2 and you are dead or close to it, Fail to pen a T-34 with your paper M4 or PzIVH and it will shread you with it's 57mm gun.

 

Mid Tier Arty is much more of a pressing problem ( imo ) for newer players than Derp tanks that are heavily reliant on RNG to pen.



Elleriel #22 Posted 26 November 2019 - 04:44 PM

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The new modifications on HE Shells are a big boost for 2 kinds of tanks :

 

- Light ones who won't take huge damage from HE any more and especially Mario Kart ones who can't be tracked, can't be stopped at all and who bounces nearly everything if hit comes on wheels, so HE was our best friend to stop them.

- A usual a boost for Russian tanks because HE will do 60 to 75 % less damage and will be blocked by spaced armor....

 

Nica work WG to give another big boosts to your favorite russian tanks who are already on 50 to 70 % of all tanks seen in CW.



Stevies_Team #23 Posted 26 November 2019 - 04:52 PM

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The only thing in the game that worked fine...

 

...and they decided to mess with it

 

WoT is not really a game

It's actually giant experiment in human psychology



Strappster #24 Posted 26 November 2019 - 04:57 PM

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Nerf the penetration but also introduce stun for larger calibre HE shells. No one likes being one-shot but there should be more reason to play something like the KV-2 than to hope its mobility (ha!) can get you into position for flanking and rear shots.

will0hlep #25 Posted 26 November 2019 - 05:40 PM

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View PostBrinklyWollox, on 26 November 2019 - 04:57 PM, said:

Nerf the penetration but also introduce stun for larger calibre HE shells. No one likes being one-shot but there should be more reason to play something like the KV-2 than to hope its mobility (ha!) can get you into position for flanking and rear shots.


I kinda like the idea of adding stun to derps, but i don't see it as a replacement for pen.

I mean arty is worse to play now than ever before and i definitely blame the introduction of stun to replace dmg and pen for that as stunning dmg just feels so unrewarding. 



Pansenmann #26 Posted 26 November 2019 - 06:00 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 26 November 2019 - 03:44 PM, said:

The first iteration with the very low damage was too much.

 

They increased the damage in the 2nd iteration but I think there will be some more balancing needed when it goes live.

 

Derps have never been great since the first round of HE nerf way back in 2011 or whenever it was.

 

I changed to derpgun on Pz IV when WG took away the VaderTurret

then I had to add 105 octane when they nerfed the engines

and things are not looking good at the moment. :(


Edited by Pansenmann, 26 November 2019 - 06:01 PM.


Inappropriate_noob #27 Posted 26 November 2019 - 06:04 PM

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Well they killed the Type 5, so all your low tier Derps are next,arty without stun is pointless,they should just remove it from the game.

Dava_117 #28 Posted 26 November 2019 - 06:40 PM

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View PostElleriel, on 26 November 2019 - 04:44 PM, said:

The new modifications on HE Shells are a big boost for 2 kinds of tanks :

 

- Light ones who won't take huge damage from HE any more and especially Mario Kart ones who can't be tracked, can't be stopped at all and who bounces nearly everything if hit comes on wheels, so HE was our best friend to stop them.

- A usual a boost for Russian tanks because HE will do 60 to 75 % less damage and will be blocked by spaced armor....

 

Nica work WG to give another big boosts to your favorite russian tanks who are already on 50 to 70 % of all tanks seen in CW.

 

Again, that was just iteration 1. There have been 3 iteration with the last one having damage parameter similar to the live server.

Please guys, keep yourself informed before posting about outdated info.



will0hlep #29 Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:20 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 26 November 2019 - 06:40 PM, said:

 

Again, that was just iteration 1. There have been 3 iteration with the last one having damage parameter similar to the live server.

Please guys, keep yourself informed before posting about outdated info.

 

While i agree that HE dmg is more in line with live server now, the dmg wasn't what made derp tanks fun. Many of us enjoy the derp because it is highly unpredictable.



Nitro_Tank #30 Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:22 PM

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Let the derps die. They have no place in world of tanks.

Dava_117 #31 Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:23 PM

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View Postwill0hlep, on 26 November 2019 - 07:20 PM, said:

 

While i agree that HE dmg is more in line with live server now, the dmg wasn't what made derp tanks fun. Many of us enjoy the derp because it is highly unpredictable.

 

That is a personal opinion, and I respect it. 

But my post was about people that keep using the first iteration as a benchmark for how the rebalance is going, while the 3rd one is most likely to be similar to what may go live.



Bordhaw #32 Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:43 PM

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View PostGixxer66, on 26 November 2019 - 03:28 PM, said:

This is where I disagree with you - all those tanks listed KV2, M4, PzIVH, Hetzer, Stug IIIB, Cruiser etc are all easily unlocked by new players, unlike some of the CW reward tanks that are blatanty OP, or OP Premium tanks that require real money to buy.

 

I think some of those would be included in the planned HP increase or at least maybe the second phase of HP increases. So in that case HE damage should remain the same as it is now else it would be too much nerfed after the HP changes. 



Gixxer66 #33 Posted 26 November 2019 - 09:10 PM

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View PostInappropriate_noob, on 26 November 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

Well they killed the Type 5, so all your low tier Derps are next,arty without stun is pointless,they should just remove it from the game.

 

Type 5 wasn't just over armored, it's ammo was the definition of pay 2 win. Slightly different scenario to paper tanks with Derp guns. i take it your games in the Type were post nerf then.



Nishi_Kinuyo #34 Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:33 AM

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If I had a choice, I'd rather see them removed entirely.

Since I don't, I'll gladly see them nerfed.



Lanrefni #35 Posted 27 November 2019 - 06:52 AM

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do not care about derp guns, just make it so that HE spam is being used as a niche tactic, not as an actual way of killing someone when that someone is playing the game correctly.

tajj7 #36 Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:45 AM

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View PostGixxer66, on 26 November 2019 - 03:28 PM, said:

 

This is where I disagree with you - all those tanks listed KV2, M4, PzIVH, Hetzer, Stug IIIB, Cruiser etc are all easily unlocked by new players, unlike some of the CW reward tanks that are blatanty OP, or OP Premium tanks that require real money to buy.

 

Most have as many draw backs to counter the one shot capability. Get caught between reloads in KV2 and you are dead or close to it, Fail to pen a T-34 with your paper M4 or PzIVH and it will shread you with it's 57mm gun.

 

Mid Tier Arty is much more of a pressing problem ( imo ) for newer players than Derp tanks that are heavily reliant on RNG to pen.

 

There is one CWs tank that is OP and its accessible to everyone just like tech tree tanks, just takes a bit more work, which if there was any reason to justify an OP tank (when there isn't really) then the fact it requires effort and skill to get is probably the best.

 

As for the rest the claim that 'everyone can get one' as some sort of justification for an OP tank is a plain stupid argument, lets all just drive the same tanks that are all OP and every other tank can basically go F themselves, seems a good game.......

 

I get that you like your one shot broken toy, but that is not a good reason to keep it the way it is or for it to be ruining games, especially on tiers with lots of new players who don't deserve to be one shot by far too good tanks just because they dared to peek a corner or made on tiny mistake, losing their whole tank for a tiny mistake is unbalanced and not good for learning, it makes people risk adverse, leading to campy gameplay. 

 

And no a T-34 will not shred a Panzer IV or M4 Derp, the reloads of those tanks are like just over 7s ffs, which means a T-34 will be able to do 3 shots at best before those tanks reload, which is not even a good trade if the derp doesn't pen, and of course everyone just sits in the open after they have fired a shot..... 

 

You are making comments that make it seem like you have never actually played the game because your comments have no real basis in reality. Most tier 6 meds/heavies etc. for a start won't kill a KV-2 or even come close to it during it's reload even in perfect scenarios, and that is presuming the KV-2 doesn't have cover, teammates etc. which is the more common situation in the game

 

I played the Sherman III recently with the derp and it is one of easiest experiences going in this game outside maybe arty and japanese heavies, especially at those tiers. The gun handling is not even bad for the sheer power it has (especially as most normal guns on those tiers also have terrible gun handling and DPMs anyway), nor is penning a problem when a huge amount of the tanks you face have no armour and even heavy tanks barely have more than about 100mm hull armour so in many cases, KV-2s can pen same tier Russian heavies and one shot them, which is hilariously broken, regardless of the 'drawbacks' (which are not even that bad), that is like the old OP Deathstar on steroids. 

 

Which is what also I find ridiculous in the desperate attempts made to excuse the KV-2, the Deathstar has 1750 alpha on tier 10 with 235 pen, it struggles to pen most tier 10 heavies frontally and cannot one shot them with even a very high roll, it also needs a very high roll to one shot tier 10 meds as well, yet its pretty much universally recognised as broken.

 

The KV-2, which has much better gun handling than either of the 183s, AND a better reload, can one shot many tier 6 heavies with a low roll, will one shot ALL tier 6 meds with ease, it can even can one shot most tier 7 TDs and even some tier 7 mediums with a very high roll. It also faces less tanks with armour then the 183s do and even against 'armoured' tanks it's pen on the HE is good enough to pen some tier 6 heavies frontally without much issue, like KV-84, M6, and T-150, right through their frontal hull armour. 

 

KV-2 is one of the most broken tanks in the game, makes most players perform above their ability, and the other derps are pretty much as bad, they all very much deserve a nerf which hopefully this HE re-work will bring. 

 



TungstenHitman #37 Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:35 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 27 November 2019 - 08:45 AM, said:

 

KV-2 is one of the most broken tanks in the game, makes most players perform above their ability, and the other derps are pretty much as bad, they all very much deserve a nerf which hopefully this HE re-work will bring. 

 

 

Accept that's not going to happen because the KV-2 r is premium which means WG won't touch it which also means the tech tree KV-2 won't be touched because it would make the KV-2r the most inexcusable pay to win tank in the history of the game far beyond anything that has ever been sold, so both tanks therefore will remain untouched. So you're just going to have to get over it unless WG decide to offer refunds to everyone that owns a KV-2r. Is that going to happen? I highly doubt they will, money is money at the end of the day and while I don't have the figures for just how many KV-2rs have been flogged worldwide, my guess is a hell of a lot and like I said, if you go to the HE re-balancing thread you will spot a response from a WG staff member in which they outline that tanks where it's really obvious that a derp gun as their primary weapon of choice, made that way by WG devs to be played with a derp gun, those tanks won't be changed in regards their HE pen etc so while your opinion on them is your opinion, always welcome to voice your opinion same as anyone, the reality is that most likely that KV-2 is still going to be the same no matter what happens.

 



Dava_117 #38 Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:51 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 27 November 2019 - 09:45 AM, said:

 It also faces less tanks with armour then the 183s do and even against 'armoured' tanks it's pen on the HE is good enough to pen some tier 6 heavies frontally without much issue, like KV-84, M6, and T-150, right through their frontal hull armour. 

 

 

Just a small thing, the only tier 6 HT you can reliably oneshot is another KV-2 because of the 75mm flat plate on turret front.

To oneshot a T-150 or a Churchill7 you need a clear shot on the rear armour. M6 and KV-85 require to get the flat side. Same goes for the VK36 and O-I. ARL is similar to those too, but the 30mm turret sides gives you more chance, even at quite shallow angles.

From my 560 games in KV-2, the only tier 6 heavy tanks I managed to oneshot were KV-2, KV-85 and O-I and, in many instances, the O-I well deserved it for driving sideways in front of my gun from less than 10m away.



will0hlep #39 Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:35 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 27 November 2019 - 09:45 AM, said:

 

1) There is one CWs tank that is OP and its accessible to everyone just like tech tree tanks, just takes a bit more work, which if there was any reason to justify an OP tank (when there isn't really) then the fact it requires effort and skill to get is probably the best.

 

2) As for the rest the claim that 'everyone can get one' as some sort of justification for an OP tank is a plain stupid argument, lets all just drive the same tanks that are all OP and every other tank can basically go F themselves, seems a good game.......

 

3) I get that you like your one shot broken toy, but that is not a good reason to keep it the way it is or for it to be ruining games, especially on tiers with lots of new players who don't deserve to be one shot by far too good tanks just because they dared to peek a corner or made on tiny mistake, losing their whole tank for a tiny mistake is unbalanced and not good for learning, it makes people risk adverse, leading to campy gameplay. 

 

4) And no a T-34 will not shred a Panzer IV or M4 Derp, the reloads of those tanks are like just over 7s ffs, which means a T-34 will be able to do 3 shots at best before those tanks reload, which is not even a good trade if the derp doesn't pen, and of course everyone just sits in the open after they have fired a shot..... 

 

5) You are making comments that make it seem like you have never actually played the game because your comments have no real basis in reality. Most tier 6 meds/heavies etc. for a start won't kill a KV-2 or even come close to it during it's reload even in perfect scenarios, and that is presuming the KV-2 doesn't have cover, teammates etc. which is the more common situation in the game

 

6) I played the Sherman III recently with the derp and it is one of easiest experiences going in this game outside maybe arty and japanese heavies, especially at those tiers. The gun handling is not even bad for the sheer power it has (especially as most normal guns on those tiers also have terrible gun handling and DPMs anyway), nor is penning a problem when a huge amount of the tanks you face have no armour and even heavy tanks barely have more than about 100mm hull armour so in many cases, KV-2s can pen same tier Russian heavies and one shot them, which is hilariously broken, regardless of the 'drawbacks' (which are not even that bad), that is like the old OP Deathstar on steroids. 

 

7) Which is what also I find ridiculous in the desperate attempts made to excuse the KV-2, the Deathstar has 1750 alpha on tier 10 with 235 pen, it struggles to pen most tier 10 heavies frontally and cannot one shot them with even a very high roll, it also needs a very high roll to one shot tier 10 meds as well, yet its pretty much universally recognised as broken.

 

8) The KV-2, which has much better gun handling than either of the 183s, AND a better reload, can one shot many tier 6 heavies with a low roll, will one shot ALL tier 6 meds with ease, it can even can one shot most tier 7 TDs and even some tier 7 mediums with a very high roll. It also faces less tanks with armour then the 183s do and even against 'armoured' tanks it's pen on the HE is good enough to pen some tier 6 heavies frontally without much issue, like KV-84, M6, and T-150, right through their frontal hull armour. 

 

9) KV-2 is one of the most broken tanks in the game, makes most players perform above their ability, and the other derps are pretty much as bad, they all very much deserve a nerf which hopefully this HE re-work will bring. 

 



1) I suspect by CW tanks they're actually refering to the ranked reward tanks like the t95/fv4201 chieftain which could only be recieved by winning ranked and now it out, it always wins ranked meaning newer players can never be competitive.

2) I agree, the 'everyone can get one' justification for an OP tank is not a good argument for the tanks existence. However the argument exists because there are thing must worse than derp tanks to no new player can get that are ruining the new player experience. Pz B2, Pak 40, Leaf Blower to name a few. Also if you do reply to this msg i would prefer it if you wouldn't be so toxic. saying F every few lines isn't making people more likely to agree with you.


3) This is a tank warfare game and tank warfare was campy. The reason the game is campy is not that players are conditioned not to take risks. It's campy because going round a corner without a plan is a bad idea regardless of which tanks will shot you. if i go round the corner and in front of a enemy, I am more likely to lose hp than the enemy because he can fire and pull away, where as i have to stop moving and aim first. I think it's time that we except that heavy tank play (and some medium tank and td play) is always going to be campy and learn to have patients when playing.

5) Your point about trading while the derp is reloading assumes the KV-2 has a good chance to pen or even hit it's target. KV-2 hit rate is down near 60% for an average player. It's pen rate is maybe 10% or less. When it dosn't pen the KV-2 gets maybe 350. It also assumes that you can't take advantage of it's awful manoeuvrability and get behind it to shoot it for even longer.

6) To me the KV-2 isn't broken, to me it's not even a good tank, it's just a wacky races tank. The Cromwell and AT-8 both have similar win rates on the EU server, do you consider them broken?

8) penning tier 6 mediums is not too difficult if you can hit the target, provided they're not using cover correctly or moving. penning the KV-85 or T-150 through the front is not so easy, it requires a well aimed shot and quite a bit of luck.

10) I agree that the new player experience needs improving but it could be improved in a number of ways that are far more important and effective than removing the derp. For example the tutorial dosn't teach patience, or the advantages of different shells, it dosn't teach players about the metas of maps (where to go in what), it dosn't teach light tank play, or camping TD play, it fails at teaching camo and spotting. have you ever played abbey at tier 1 and 2, so many player rush past the abbey on the route shown in the tutorial and get instant killed because it's the worst non meta play on abbey. alternatively have you seen the prokorovka tutorial where you are encouraged to run over the middle of the map mid game and use the hedges (that are totally ineffective in a live game) to hide from the enemy tanks so you can cap. Another thing that would help the new player experience is telling players the advantages and disadvantages of different tanks before they choose the lines they're going to play. Some line pay off at different times, and some lines have high skill caps, if we made this clear to players we may find they find tanks that suit them faster. Smaller games at tier 1 and 2 would help massively as currently games at those tiers are totally down to luck, giving players no opportunity to learn. Further more i believe that it is a lack of fun tanks at low tiers that causes players not to bother grinding past tiers 4 or 5 or 6 like so many people who my friends group have introduced to this game. Players play the loltractor and maybe T-26 and T-46 or whatever else and get bored, not because they're dying endlessly (that is how you start in every shooting game), but because the tanks have already become dull and repetitive. With the exception of the derps and the Pz 1 c. and a few others all the tanks with fun features or that are fun to play are locked at tier 6 and up.

10:36 Added after 1 minute

View PostDava_117, on 27 November 2019 - 10:51 AM, said:

 

Just a small thing, the only tier 6 HT you can reliably oneshot is another KV-2 because of the 75mm flat plate on turret front.

To oneshot a T-150 or a Churchill7 you need a clear shot on the rear armour. M6 and KV-85 require to get the flat side. Same goes for the VK36 and O-I. ARL is similar to those too, but the 30mm turret sides gives you more chance, even at quite shallow angles.

From my 560 games in KV-2, the only tier 6 heavy tanks I managed to oneshot were KV-2, KV-85 and O-I and, in many instances, the O-I well deserved it for driving sideways in front of my gun from less than 10m away.

 

Lol, i just love the average Japanese heavy tank player, in the words of the mighty jingles, "apparently he isn't capable of thinking and breathing at the same time".


Edited by will0hlep, 27 November 2019 - 11:40 AM.


LittleLara #40 Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:56 AM

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What I'd like to see is still having 0mm pen on HE but keep the dmg as it is so you can still do more dmg to badly armoured vehicles. but they need to change the calculation so it doesn't do huge dmg when shooting thicc armour too.





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