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Another premium ammo/PTW rant after watching BRotW#96


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RakothMaugrim #1 Posted 26 November 2019 - 05:17 PM

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Hello WG,

 

I've just seen some really good replays in the episode #96 of the Best Replays of the Week. Really strong plays - 6, 7, 2x9 and 12 kills games, thousands of damage, loads of base XP, multiple medals, etc.

 

And yet! These players ended deep in red credit-wise. Despite using premium account and a couple of premium tanks.

 

Data points:

  • Replay #1 - tier 8 - 9 kills game - minus 65k credits
  • Replay #2 - tier 7 - 9 kills game - minus 52k credits
  • Replay #3 - tier 7 - 6 kills game - minus 5k
  • Replay #4 - tier 6 - 7 kills game - minus 27k credits
  • Replay #5 - tier 5 - 12 kills game - minus 35k credits

 

Yes, they were spamming gold like there's no tomorrow and they can obviously afford it. Yet it is another related problem - if this is the new standard, how does a casual player play a role other than cannon fodder? And bear in mind, this applies to casual paying customers (premium account, premium tank) and not just freeloaders -  getting into an exchange with the above type of players, you will still massively bleed credits.

 

I'm writing this partly because I wanted to rant a bit, and partly to contribute the specific evidence (through Best Replays) to support the other thread about credit earning (http://forum.worldof...credit-earning/). And before someone throws in the other obligatory "stay-on-the-lower-tiers-if-you-want-to-make-credits" argument, please note that the above games were not tier IX or tier X games.

 

Is the game still suitable for a casual player?

 

To end on a constructive note, a suggestion -
Since premium ammo is historically accurate, it has to stay in the game. And it should stay in the game for those bottom-tier-meets-top-tier situations where you need the extra pen. However, why not limit the amount of premium shells so it can't be spammed throughout the game? For example, only 20% of the overall shell capacity can be premium. This will also make armor (somewhat) relevant again and the exact premium ammo percentage can be another parameter to fine-tune tanks.

 

Thanks for reading.

 


Edited by RakothMaugrim, 26 November 2019 - 05:26 PM.


Balc0ra #2 Posted 26 November 2019 - 05:41 PM

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So you are concerned about the income of other users and want to help them? If they want and can afford to spam it. Them by all means. Most don't play mid-tiers for income either.

 

View PostRakothMaugrim, on 26 November 2019 - 05:17 PM, said:

To end on a constructive note, a suggestion -

Since premium ammo is historically accurate, it has to stay in the game. And it should stay in the game for those bottom-tier-meets-top-tier situations where you need the extra pen. However, why not limit the amount of premium shells so it can't be spammed throughout the game? For example, only 20% of the overall shell capacity can be premium. This will also make armor (somewhat) relevant again and the exact premium ammo percentage can be another parameter to fine-tune tanks.

 

 

This has been suggested 9999 times before. And tbh. It's IMO a terrible idea atm with all the balance gaps around on +1 or the same tiers even. Now some tanks have more then enough ammo so that most stay below 20% as is. But on others, less so.

 

And if you have an IS-6 platoon and a stock tier 9 HT with 215 pen. And the enemy has a Type 5 and a VK 100.01 Platoon. Having a platoon that can't waste too much ammo with 217 pen that will bounce on most shots to make a difference won't help. Not to mention the amazing pay2win Matilda IV with his 102 gold pen vs an O-I. And on other tanks there again, 20% won't stop them from filling you up with just gold to kill you as is. As for some, 20% is 40 or even 30 shots. Like on the Churchill III.



Joggaman #3 Posted 26 November 2019 - 06:51 PM

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Desyatnik_Pansy #4 Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:21 PM

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View PostRakothMaugrim, on 26 November 2019 - 04:17 PM, said:

Data points:

  • Replay #1 - tier 8 - 9 kills game - minus 65k credits
  • Replay #2 - tier 7 - 9 kills game - minus 52k credits
  • Replay #3 - tier 7 - 6 kills game - minus 5k
  • Replay #4 - tier 6 - 7 kills game - minus 27k credits
  • Replay #5 - tier 5 - 12 kills game - minus 35k credits

 

I think it's also worth noting the tanks and ammo loadouts:

Caernarvon (32pdr) - 10/37/3

VK 30.02 (D) (75mm) - 50/40/10

T-34-85M (85mm) - 40/20/0

M4A3E2 (76mm) - 64/30/10

Churchill III (57mm) - 40/100

 

The E2 Ammo is assumed, given I didn't catch a moment where it showed him with the full loadout, but given we first see him with 64/27/10, it's likely to be 64/30/10. So while they are slinging Gold like it's going out of style (I haven't actually watched the replays), only the Caer and Churchill have more Gold than standard. The VK D and E2 As well IMHO, are justified for their frequent use of Gold. 



NUKLEAR_SLUG #5 Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:32 PM

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You're equating big damage games with use of gold ammo which is just not true. Most big games are down more to skill and a hefty dose of luck than players ammo choice so F2P players aren't prevented from doing the same. Spamming gold isn't a replacement for 'gitting gud'. 

Bordhaw #6 Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:37 PM

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View PostRakothMaugrim, on 26 November 2019 - 04:17 PM, said:

 

Data points:

  • Replay #1 - tier 8 - 9 kills game - minus 65k credits
  • Replay #2 - tier 7 - 9 kills game - minus 52k credits
  • Replay #3 - tier 7 - 6 kills game - minus 5k
  • Replay #4 - tier 6 - 7 kills game - minus 27k credits
  • Replay #5 - tier 5 - 12 kills game - minus 35k credits

 

 

 

View PostRakothMaugrim, on 26 November 2019 - 04:17 PM, said:

Is the game still suitable for a casual player?

 

To end on a constructive note, a suggestion -

 

 

 

So play mid tiers, don't spam gold and don't use consumables

 

 

 

 

 



demoilition #7 Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:51 PM

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Having some gold shells for heavy armor is ok, but spaming gold from the start of the game (no matter wath tier), o boy, for that you need skill...

RakothMaugrim #8 Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:59 PM

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View PostBordhaw, on 26 November 2019 - 06:37 PM, said:

 

So play mid tiers, don't spam gold and don't use consumables

 

It is certainly a way to look at it - however a significant portion of players starts firing premium ammo all the time and running premium consumables, then that becomes the de facto standard for everyone i.e. if you don't do the same, you are severely handicapped even if your skill is really good. It would be a fallacy to assume that only bad players spam gold and run premium consumables and you can best them by skill alone - assume there are players of equal skill on both sides and I'm sure you have to agree that the side bleeding credits (i.e. using premium ammo and consumables) will win more often than not.

 



RakothMaugrim #9 Posted 26 November 2019 - 08:10 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 26 November 2019 - 04:41 PM, said:

This has been suggested 9999 times before. And tbh. It's IMO a terrible idea atm with all the balance gaps around on +1 or the same tiers even. Now some tanks have more then enough ammo so that most stay below 20% as is. But on others, less so.

 

And if you have an IS-6 platoon and a stock tier 9 HT with 215 pen. And the enemy has a Type 5 and a VK 100.01 Platoon. Having a platoon that can't waste too much ammo with 217 pen that will bounce on most shots to make a difference won't help. Not to mention the amazing pay2win Matilda IV with his 102 gold pen vs an O-I. And on other tanks there again, 20% won't stop them from filling you up with just gold to kill you as is. As for some, 20% is 40 or even 30 shots. Like on the Churchill III.

 

20% was just a suggestion. I did say it could be tailored to a specific tank. If the tank is underpowered and the only way to balance it is to increase its premium ammo load limit, then by all means the limit could go up. 

 

On the 9999 times... indeed it appears it has been brought up before e.g. http://forum.worldof...git-suggestion/

I did a quick search on the forums for a few keywords and didn't see any top results, though I haven't checked all the topics to make sure. But it was a side note anyway - my main comment was that the best replays of the game officially published by WG on the official WOT homepage feature a style of play that includes exorbitant premium ammo spam. 

 

I would actually be more keen to see replays featuring all that skill everyone talks about in the forums and premium ammo was used sparingly if at all. Now *that* would be a proper display of skill worthy of a replay-of-the-week title.

 


Edited by RakothMaugrim, 26 November 2019 - 08:23 PM.


TomatoShooter #10 Posted 26 November 2019 - 11:07 PM

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View Postdemoilition, on 26 November 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

Having some gold shells for heavy armor is ok, but spaming gold from the start of the game (no matter wath tier), o boy, for that you need skill...

Why not, if someone has credits enough. Who are you to tell others how to play? Spamming gold every game will NOT make a 45% winrate player a 60% winrate player anyway, so what you see in those BrotW compilation is a cherry picked collection of games..



RakothMaugrim #11 Posted 26 November 2019 - 11:27 PM

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View PostTomatoShooter, on 26 November 2019 - 10:07 PM, said:

Why not, if someone has credits enough. Who are you to tell others how to play? Spamming gold every game will NOT make a 45% winrate player a 60% winrate player anyway, so what you see in those BrotW compilation is a cherry picked collection of games..


Take a look at other freemium games and how premium content affects/impacts the gameplay to understand the underlying problem.

 

Spamming gold will not make a bad player better, but it will make a "richer" player win more when both players are of equal skill - for that one or more ricochets more that you'll get with standard ammo. That gives the game a pay-to-win element. I'm not sure what percentage of free (non-paying) players play this game, but I'm sure it is significant and WOT would quickly die a painful death if all free players suddenly dropped the game. Hence a bit of consideration should be given to make the game a bit less about "why not if people have enough money" and attract player spend with less gameplay-impacting products.



BravelyRanAway #12 Posted 26 November 2019 - 11:30 PM

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View PostRakothMaugrim, on 26 November 2019 - 10:27 PM, said:

 I'm not sure what percentage of free (non-paying) players play this game, but I'm sure it is significant and WOT would quickly die a painful death if all free players suddenly dropped the game. 

75% of players never spend any money.

22:32 Added after 1 minute

View PostRakothMaugrim, on 26 November 2019 - 10:27 PM, said:

 Hence a bit of consideration should be given to make the game a bit less about "why not if people have enough money" and attract player spend with less gameplay-impacting products.

It's not about having enough 'money'......it's about 'credits' which everyone can earn in game.


Edited by BravelyRanAway, 26 November 2019 - 11:32 PM.


Gixxer66 #13 Posted 26 November 2019 - 11:40 PM

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So you pick a best of compilation of the best game as the basis of your argument that Premium ammo and consumables are the standard ?

 

You can hardly pick the best of best and apply them to everyone a being the the std, what a load of baloney. Lets face it the average player is often cannon fodder no matter what's being fired, most of the time it makes no difference as they would be penned by std ammo. if that's the case it's more fool on the shooter for not swapping back and forth between ammo types as needed.

 

I recently won a 1 vs 7 and fired a handful of APCR rounds in that, because it was appropriate to do so, every pen counted and could hardly afford to bounce even though i would probably have still penned with std ammo. But I was trying to eliminate the probably.

 

I'll happily spam APCR / HEAT if i feel that's the best solution for the mess I've got myself in. Hell in some tanks I have Premium ammo set as the default, T20 / T29 ( with the 90mm ) come to mind.



unhappy_bunny #14 Posted 26 November 2019 - 11:43 PM

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View PostRakothMaugrim, on 26 November 2019 - 10:27 PM, said:


Take a look at other freemium games and how premium content affects/impacts the gameplay to understand the underlying problem.

 

Spamming gold will not make a bad player better, but it will make a "richer" player win more when both players are of equal skill - for that one or more ricochets more that you'll get with standard ammo. That gives the game a pay-to-win element. I'm not sure what percentage of free (non-paying) players play this game, but I'm sure it is significant and WOT would quickly die a painful death if all free players suddenly dropped the game. Hence a bit of consideration should be given to make the game a bit less about "why not if people have enough money" and attract player spend with less gameplay-impacting products.


You seem to be assuming these players are spending real money to buy their premium ammo. They could be earning their credits and then splashing out on premium ammo for a few game before going back to standard ammo while they recoup credits. That would not be pay to win. 



xtrem3x #15 Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:23 AM

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View Postdemoilition, on 26 November 2019 - 06:51 PM, said:

Having some gold shells for heavy armor is ok, but spaming gold from the start of the game (no matter wath tier), o boy, for that you need skill...

 

Who's to say choosing to load 100% gold isn't skill..?

The skill to pick the tools to do the job you need to do... The skill to to earn enough credits to afford your choices

The skill to suffer through 10 prestige of FL to grind over 60 million credits like I did so now my arty has full GOLD loadout :trollface:

 

It's not very skillfull to choose sub-par ammo and as a result lose the game :hiding:


Edited by xtrem3x, 27 November 2019 - 12:23 AM.


BravelyRanAway #16 Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:09 AM

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View Postxtrem3x, on 26 November 2019 - 11:23 PM, said:

 

The skill to suffer through 10 prestige of FL to grind over 60 million credits like I did so now my arty has full GOLD loadout :trollface:

 

*Takes note of more options on how to use the 94 million credits earned in FL.:hiding:



Cobra6 #17 Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:15 AM

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View PostRakothMaugrim, on 26 November 2019 - 04:17 PM, said:


Since premium ammo is historically accurate, it has to stay in the game. 

 

 

Historically these shells, especially the APCR ones were made from expensive metals so every tank only got a few of them tops.

So if we are going down that route:

Limit premium ammo to 5%=>10% of the total ammo capacity of the vehicle.

 

Cobra 6



Ceeb #18 Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:26 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 27 November 2019 - 09:15 AM, said:

 

Historically these shells, especially the APCR ones were made from expensive metals so every tank only got a few of them tops.

So if we are going down that route:

Limit premium ammo to 5%=>10% of the total ammo capacity of the vehicle.

 

Cobra 6

 

Have to say, but ^ this.

 

No tank needs to carry 100% premium ammo.

 

My 13 57 and ELC will cry however. :(






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