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Analysis of Kinetic Energy of WW2 Tank Guns with WoT


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Orlund #61 Posted 11 March 2012 - 11:41 PM

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Its funny how devs dont budge on the L/56 88mm no matter how much gameplay,historical info and everything they just refuse to do anything about it.

did their grand-grandfathers take a L/56 88mm shell to the turret in a T-34 or what ?, This should've been done in beta or on release but here we are more then a year after release and nothing has been done to the worst balanced gun in the entire game.

its like they are obsessed that the L/56 88mm must be historical accurate ( according to their source/info ) or the sky will fall or something.

inb4 someone points out the accuracy buff that was totally pointless.

EDIT: Putting this here is like swooping dust under the rug.

FreakDC #62 Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:17 AM

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View PostLeduss, on 11 March 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Its funny how devs dont budge on the L/56 88mm no matter how much gameplay,historical info and everything they just refuse to do anything about it.

did their grand-grandfathers take a L/56 88mm shell to the turret in a T-34 or what ?, This should've been done in beta or on release but here we are more then a year after release and nothing has been done to the worst balanced gun in the entire game.

its like they are obsessed that the L/56 88mm must be historical accurate ( according to their source/info ) or the sky will fall or something.

inb4 someone points out the accuracy buff that was totally pointless.

EDIT: Putting this here is like swooping dust under the rug.

As for sweeping this thread under the rug, well we can link/quote it from other topics concerning guns.  
Thanks for pointing me to this thread!

It's not news that most RL evidence, tests or approximations show that german ingame values are too low.
I don't even think we would need realistic values.

Buffing the weak guns like the 88 L/56 5mm per month (easily done server side, no patch needed) from 130mm up to say ~150mm would give WG three/four month to keep an eye on the tanks performances after each small buff.
And I don't think any german tank would suddenly swarm the matches (like e.g. the Type59 did or the AMX 13 90 or the Batmen... ;)).

If WG would rework all the underpowered guns they could also get rid of some ugly unfitting guns like the Schmalturm with L/70 on the PZ IV and the Panther I. They could reuse the Pz IV Hydro turret on the regular Pz IV (maybe modified so the Hydro stays unique once added) and ditch the L/70 for the L/48 with 125-130mm pen. Pz IV would loose some turret armor but gain traverse and mobility.

A buffed L/70 could be the top sniper gun on the Panther I with maybe 160-170mm penetration leaving the 140-150mm pen 88 L/56 for brawling. With the 30mm loss of penetration due to the loss of the L/100 the Panther could get buffed turret traverse and less weight (buffed mobility) and maybe higher camo (at least while not moving, Panther tanks were used for ambushes a lot).

That way the german meds would finally work as medium tanks with an actual choice of guns.

With the huge buffs (T-44 got 8 values buffed in one patch, they also overdid the IS-4 a little bit... :rolleyes:) the USSR tanks receive all the time some small buffs to certain german tanks should be doable.

Even the (unofficial) statistics show that none of the german tanks seems to be overpowered.

Vlevs #63 Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:05 PM

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I'm generally against calculating penetrations from a rigid formula, because it forces assumption that all AP shells are identically designed. It's not fixed by giving German shells a small bonus against others, either (they weren't universally better). AP shells of all countries improved throughout the war, getting better penetration from same sectional energy. Also, some guns had worse AP shells than their contemporaries of same country; particularly US 75mm performed poorly compared to US 76mm and Soviet medium 76,2mm performed poorly to most Soviet guns of the era - in both cases the shell had higher HE volume than more focused AP shell, which increased damage against lighter targets. Thus, historical values are the best source.

So I'm still advocating the changes that Tuccy proposed ( http://forum.worldof...gun-comparison/ ), but fat chance that will happen this late in the development. I agree with FreakDC for removing some options that would become OP in the process, in general it would make German tree more balanced, historical and generally more pleasant to play.

One more note, British 17-pounder AT gun was nearly identical to German 75mm L/70 KwK 42 in performance. When that arrives, it serves as a good yardstick for how much German guns are lagging in penetration.

Orlund #64 Posted 13 March 2012 - 03:01 PM

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View PostFreakDC, on 13 March 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:



You're welcome, glad to inform fellow players about what really goes on anyway.

EDIT: removed the quote text to not clutter up the thread.

Doxs_Roxs #65 Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:00 PM

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I would like to say that this is a great topic! I have had a large interest in different guns and their performance since playing alot of realism mods in the Close Combat series.
Ever since starting to play WOT I have had the feeling that the german mid tier guns are lacking penetration.

I completely agree with introducing more historically correct penetration values and removing longer guns that are unrealistic for their tier thus keeping, and in some cases improving game balance.
This would also adress the huge gap in penetration between ~135mm and 200mm found in the german tech tree.

Have there been any recent serious attempts to direct developers to these figures?

Vlevs #66 Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:07 PM

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View PostDoxs_Roxs, on 14 March 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Have there been any recent serious attempts to direct developers to these figures?
Discussion on this tend to be moved to 'Historical Discussion' and forgotten by EU community at large - and devs themselves very rarely use EU forums anyway, so any serious attempt to contact them should be through RU forums. I have no idea if this is discussed at RU forums, but if russian users on EU forum are anything to go by, there's likely to be general resistance to buffing German line. Not to mention when devs comment on the issue, answer is usually like "German line is balanced and all tanks are based on historical figures" [emphasis mine].

So in my opinion, if this issue is ever going to be rectified depends on RU users' stance on the issue, and seems unlikely ATM.

Edit: If you feel optimistic, submit your question here: http://forum.worldof...stions-answers/ . I haven't read all dev answers so you might find something interesting by going those threads through.

CoreMaster101 #67 Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:15 PM

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Most of the german 75mm guns need a buff and definitely the 88mm L/56. But with other german guns I'm quite happy even tho all of them don't have correct values. And I think german 128mm L/55 needs a penetration buff or penetration for other tier 9-10 guns should get nerfed.

Xindox #68 Posted 27 May 2012 - 03:36 PM

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Yeah, that's really infuriating. KwK42 was the best WWII AT gun, and so it is the most underpowered in WoT. All Russian guns (especially 122 D-25 and 85 ZIS-53) have too much penetration.
Too bad GvA's been turned off, the Oracle :arta:  At least it's archived: http://web.archive.o...troduction.html
Ah, and note that Russian guns are more... yes, more accurate than German ones. That's as ridiculous as no other thing in this world. Well, the lack of performance might be balanced by Russians being cheaper to research, buy and repair, with Germans extremely expensive, which would be quite true and sensible.

Oh, wait, I forgot the one of the most UP guns is Pak 41 in VK3601H, which had about 170mm pen at 500m, which would place it at tier 7. Shame they nerfed it to being just ridiculous.

Edited by Xindox, 27 May 2012 - 03:47 PM.


crnivuk #69 Posted 30 May 2012 - 01:03 AM

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View Postsaml6131, on 30 December 2011 - 01:28 AM, said:

Nice work but sadly WarGaming didn't design this game to be a tank simulator.
who said it has to be.

But seriously. Play the Jagdpanzer IV with the 88mm and tell me it does not need a buff.

many of the Russian and American guns get values which are very close to the real values of said guns. Like the 90mm you haev in the M6 or the 122mm on the Is1.

But the Germans not? Even though a few tanks could need it. Like the 128mm guns on the E-100, Maus, Vk45p and E-75 (compared to the guns of the other nations), or the 75mm and the 88mm guns on Tier5-6.

No one is asking for "realism" here. Its about a coherent system.

Edited by crnivuk, 30 May 2012 - 01:05 AM.


saml6131 #70 Posted 30 May 2012 - 08:13 AM

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View Postcrnivuk, on 30 May 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

who said it has to be.

But seriously. Play the Jagdpanzer IV with the 88mm and tell me it does not need a buff.

many of the Russian and American guns get values which are very close to the real values of said guns. Like the 90mm you haev in the M6 or the 122mm on the Is1.

But the Germans not? Even though a few tanks could need it. Like the 128mm guns on the E-100, Maus, Vk45p and E-75 (compared to the guns of the other nations), or the 75mm and the 88mm guns on Tier5-6.

No one is asking for "realism" here. Its about a coherent system.

I have played the jagdpanzer IV, and I hate it. Worst tier 6 TD currently ingame. And although many of the German guns do need to be balanced fairly, not every gun in the game needs to get it historical measurements, although I kind of take that back since December as WG have buffed many of the RU tanks due to 'Historical accuracy'. Why not the Germans?

crnivuk #71 Posted 30 May 2012 - 11:31 AM

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exactly what I think. Its not about give EVERY gun historical values. But its clear that there is room for improvements in the game mechanic at least with some parts.

And I dont know why some people emidiately jump on  that band wagon crying foul on those which discuss it. Yeah. Everyone a German fanboy. Thats why most of my tanks are Russian/US. Not that it matters. I am more about "equal" game play. Or at least trying to achieve that. For some that is already achieved. But others think different. I dont see where the issue is to discuss that. Particularly when some people have spend some time to research the topic in relation with real gun values and in relation with the way how those are ported to the game by the developers.

Schiltron #72 Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:52 PM

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Penetration figures from Spielberger´s book about Tiger
Just a sidenote Spielberger was a real tanker comanding a Jagdpanther

8.8cm 43 (L/71)

Pz Gr 39/43 Penetrator weight10.16kp Vo 1000m/s
90°
500m 205mm
1000m 186mm
1500m 170mm
2000m 154mm

PzGr. 40/43 Penetrator weight 7.5kp Vo 1130m/s
90°
500m 270mm
1000m 233mm
1500m 205mm
2000m 175mm

ZeZergling #73 Posted 04 June 2012 - 06:56 AM

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View PostSchiltron, on 03 June 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

Penetration figures from Spielberger´s book about Tiger
Just a sidenote Spielberger was a real tanker comanding a Jagdpanther

8.8cm 43 (L/71)

Pz Gr 39/43 Penetrator weight10.16kp Vo 1000m/s
90°
500m 205mm
1000m 186mm
1500m 170mm
2000m 154mm

PzGr. 40/43 Penetrator weight 7.5kp Vo 1130m/s
90°
500m 270mm
1000m 233mm
1500m 205mm
2000m 175mm

Thanks, this is good information!

Using the calculations for adjusting for range in WWII Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery, the Pzgr. 39/43 penetration at 100 meters would be between 217 and 221mm.
Lot closer to my estimate of 230mm than the ingame 203mm.

I've also previously estimated the Pzgr. 40/43 APCR penetration at about 270-300mm; I guess my low end was a little bit low. It probably penetrated around 300 to 320mm at 100 meters range.

Schiltron #74 Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:45 PM

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In Spielbergers book about the Hetzer/Jagdpanzer IV is a table at which ranges the Wehrmacht claimed tanks could knock out each other at 60° frontal

60° frontal (the range the enemy could kill Hetzer 60° frontal)
T-34-85 700m (400m)
KW85 900m (400m)
JS122 100m (1000m)
Cromwell 1500m (0m)
Churchill 500m (0m)
Sherman A2 75mm 800m (0m)
Sherman A4 76mm 800m (600m)

60° frontal (the range the enmy could kill Jagdpanzer IV 60° frontal)
T34-85 700m (100m)
KW85 900m (100m)
IS122 100m (500m)
Cromwell 1500m (0m)
Churchill 500m (0m)
Sherman A2 75mm 800m (0m)
Sherman A4 76mm 800m (100m)

60° frontal ( range enemy could kill Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) 60° frontal)
T34-85 1500m (100m)
KW85 2000m (100m)
IS122 800m (500m)
Cromwell 3000m (0m)
Churchill 1800m (0m)
Sherman A2 75mm 2000m (0m)
Sherman A4 76mm 2000m (100m)

60° frontal (the range enemy could kill Japdpanzer IV/70 (A) 60° frontal)
T34-85 1500m (1500m)
KW85 2000m (1500m)
JS 122 800m (2700m)
Cromwell 3000m (100m)
Churchill 1800m (100m)
Sherman A2 75mm 2000m (100m)
Sherman A4 76mm 2000m (1700m)

Edited by Schiltron, 04 June 2012 - 04:51 PM.


Todd #75 Posted 05 June 2012 - 04:04 PM

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Always thought German 50mm (especially), 75 and 88mm were lacking greatly in penetrations. Looks like I was right all along.

Imagine the Leo with 50mm L60 autocannon with 90-95 pen... That would be damn fun to drive. Atm it's depressingly weak ;(

Vlevs #76 Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:40 AM

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View PostSchiltron, on 04 June 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

60° frontal ( range enemy could kill Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) 60° frontal) T34-85 1500m (100m)
60° frontal (the range enemy could kill Japdpanzer IV/70 (A) 60° frontal) T34-85 1500m (1500m)

Thanks a lot for the info. Seems Alkett Jagdpanzer was even more rubbish than I thought.

FightingFalcon1980 #77 Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:11 AM

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Thank you for your hard Work! :Smile_Default:
My thoughts about som german Guns terribly lacking in Penetration was confirmed.

At least 3 should get better Penetration Values

7,5L70, 8,8L56 and 12,8L55 - this would bring Guns and Tanks on par with its Enemy Counterparts ingame.

Psycho_Baby_ #78 Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:58 PM

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View PostVlevs, on 02 March 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

which suggests that penetration numbers are otherwise good except devs apparently using 60-degree penetration values instead of 90-degree values for German medium guns like they have done with every other gun in the game.

Sorry about the necroing, but this is not true for every case. I just found rechecked (independent research for another work, never mind) allied penetration data for US 57 mm AP shot M70 against homogenous armor plate, from Terminal Ballistic Data Vol 2, August, 1944, page 22. I was looking for similar M79 and M77 graphs, but no luck this far.

Ingame the 57mm has 105-110 penetration for the same type (M70) of projectile as I recall. Now look at the penetration at inches for 30 degrees impact, it's next to 4.5 inch (~110mm) at point blank range.

http://img707.images...07/421/d9ub.jpg

Now I don't do fancy calculations and such, but this time game/Devs took 30 degree from vertical data (German 60 degrees from horizontal) and not 0 for a non-german gun, at least in this case. Wouldn't be surprised if I found similar data for the rest.

Edited by Kwagga, 04 July 2013 - 01:21 PM.


jackynator98 #79 Posted 12 April 2016 - 06:52 PM

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What I currently find disturbing about the 75 L/100 is that it basically gets the real life penetration of the 75 L/70, the devs should maybe look into that and make something like an Ausf. B of the L/70 instead of the L/100, making for a lighter T8 75mm, making it more reallistic without big rebalancing needed, that could also help the VK 30.02 D, if you let it have that gun. The L/100 could then have  244mm of pen, going by the increase from L/70 to L/100, placing it in T9-10.

Also, an 88mm L/71 autoloader for say T9 or even 10 would be very interesting.(putting it on the E50 and as an alternative on the E50M or even the RHM Borsig)

tell me what you think.



Manou01 #80 Posted 21 October 2016 - 11:34 AM

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