RaxipIx, on 09 December 2019 - 05:25 PM, said:
The comparison he did is valid, and i will explain you why.
And there is an analogy you made with whiskey and gambling, how they can be addictive, and you come to the conclusion since it's addictive it means it's bad.
It's only bad to the minority whom can't hold back and are abusing the substance.
There are too many things that can cause addiction, but i'll name a few:
-Work->hence the term workaholic.
-Pain->Might seem odd but some people are addicted to feeling pain.
-Sugar-> Yes yes, and it can have very grave consequences, can induce sever health problems , abused over a long period of time can cause heart failure . You can actually die.
-Intercourse->Just as sugar, releases dopamine,but also adrenaline and so on, and people do get addicted.Ever heard the term nymphomaniac?
-Opioids->largely used for pain treatment in the medical area.
-And yes food, mostly unhealthy fast food, that leads to obesity, that leads to plenty of health problems, that leads to death.
You see, all of them are addictive, used in moderate way makes you feel good, happy and joy, while abused can kill you.Do you wanna know why they are not banned? Because the idea itself is ridiculous nobody should, f, eat,drink,gamble, list goes on because a minority gets addicted too it. Hence then nobody should do it, or it shouldn't be available at all, so people then can't get addicted.
It's a joke thinking this way.
Addiction is a personal thing and if someone has a problem with any form of addiction should seek professional help, to help him overcome his urges.
Not all of them are addictive in the same way,and at the same level, and here comes in the law, and democracy, some substances are so dangerous and are so addictive, with so sever health problems that governments flat out ban them, or regulate them very strictly. Talking about "drugs".
You are literally saying that you'd rather enjoy something, at the cost of other people having to suffer.
Instead of not being able to enjoy something so that other people don't have to suffer, in a decent amount of cases, life threatening situations.
Exactly what i am saying,except that they don't need to suffer. They can stop, ask for help and so on.
Democracy comes in again, look at it this way, why should literally BILLIONS suffer abstinence of a plethora of things , because a small percent can't hold back?
And here is why the analogy is wrong, you say whiskey has alcohol in it and can be addictive. Yes,
You say looboxes release dopamine and can be addictive, fine.
Then you say Whiskey is an alcohol based drink. Yep.
Then you say lootboxes =gambling. How so? Pretty far fetched and it's your biased opinion. All it shows that loot boxes can be addictive and since a great many things release dopamine in the brain that can cause addictions i find the comparison void.
For the last part democracy comes in again, and law.Since to this date only a few countries banned them , and loot boxes are not sold there. You don't really have grounds to either claim/demand anything from WG as long there is no law on the matter in the country you live in. Belgium banned them, because the people in that government saw it as gambling.
Other countries might not see the same way, what if 5 Eu countries ban it 5 don't. Who is right and who is wrong?
And so what? Do you think i care why you might/might not buy a loot box? And i don't really see why would you care that much. At the end of it people spend money on what they want. If people buy boxes because they want a specific tank , it's in their problem.
If they want to spend money on other "nightly services" their problem, who am i and you to judge?
Loot boxes at the moment are not labeled as a form of gambling in most of the EU, hence they can keep they pegi-7 rating, and even if they would change it to pegi-30 or whatever i see literally no difference to be honest. Wot community would keep on doing exactly the same thing they did so far.
And a bit of technicality, we might say we are buying boxes, but what really happens , we "buy"/rent access to premium content, we are not buying anything, we are paying for a service. And when you "buy" the mighty Defender you actually rent it out until WG goes broke, or you stop playing.
So when "buying" boxes, the money is deducted for access and rent to premium content, and when this event is happening all that WG is doing, while paying for a service, they sweeten the deal giving you a chance to get access some extra premium content.
Because as you know, since i saw you mention this, all legal right to the products, services are hold by WG.
Thanks for the contructive reply! +1
You name a lot of things that can indeed be addictive.
Next you are saying that it would be silly if all these things would be banned...
And I agree! It would indeed be very silly to ban every single thing that possibly could be addictive to a person.
However...
Why do you think alcohol, tabacco and casino's are regulated? Meaning as in, you have to be 18+ to access it?
1: Because they cause a way higher amount of addicts than the addictions you have mentioned. You even mention it yourself. Some things are more addictive than others, and that's why they get regulated, or even banned in some places.
2: Because is is a lot easier to regulate these things.
And since lootboxes function exactly the same as gambling, they should be regulated like gambling. AKA: Casino's.
The only difference is that in the case of WoT, you get an item that has literally no sellable value. Which is always used as an excuse to make it "not gambling", even though it makes no difference in what's actually happening.
Here's a fun idea for WG to make a totally legit Casino that is, according to the people defending lootboxes, "not gambling".
How about WG literally open a real life casino, exactly the same as any other casino.
However, with every penny spent in the casino, gambling for money just like any other casino, people will get a guaranteed amount of gold of the value they have spent in the real casino.
Do you now truly believe that this fictional casino will now suddenly not get regulated, and allow children to partake in it? Just because there is a guaranteed amount of gold?
Of course not. Getting a useless virtual currency that has no sellable value, is not viable thing to stop it from being gambling.
How about every casino in the world create an online game like WoT, and promise that all money spent in their casino, will guarantee you a premium currency of the same value in their videogame.
Would that suddenly make those casino's not 18+ anymore?
Yeah, if that would be possible, casino's would have done that a long time ago. See how silly it is?
You stated yourself that some countries don't see lootboxes as gambling, and others do.
This is indeed the case, and is caused by the fact that the law has not been able to keep up with technology.
You also mentioned that addicts can "just stop and ask for help".
That is not how addiction works. A person can't just "stop" or ask for help.
If it was that simple, addiction would not be a problem.
You also asked "How so do you think lootboxes are gambling? Just because they release dopamine?"
Here is WHY lootboxes are gambling: Because just like gambling, it involves a financial transaction, that grants access to a luck based event, where there is a small chance to get something that is valuable to the customer, and by doing so, also releases a lot of dopamine.
-In a casino, you spend money to spin the slot for example.
-With a lootbox, you spend money to get a lootbox and open it.
-In a casino, upon spinning the slot machine, it will grant you a random chance of winning something that is valuable to the customer. In this case: chips that can be cashed in for money. The item does not matter, all that matters is that it is valuable to the customer. Because value is in the eye of the beholder. So anything can be used, as long as someone finds it valuable.
-With a lootbox, upon opening, you get a random chance of winning something that is valuable to the customer. In this case: a premium tank, skin or exclusive crew member. It doesn't matter what these items are, all that matters is that these skins, tanks or crew members are valuable to the customer. Because value is in the eye of teh beholder. So anything can be used, as long as someone finds it valuable.
As stated before, the extra guaranteed gold and premium days do not stop it from being gambling. I have already proven why, earlier in this post. All that matters is that there are rare items that have a lot more value to most customers.
To continue:
-When you spin the slot machine, the flashy lights and sounds help you get more excited for a possible valuable reward. In this case, hoping for a big load of chips to be won.
-When opening a lootbox, the flashy animations and colors help you get more excited for a possible valuable reward. Rare tanks, skins, crew member.
All of the above releases a lot of dopamine into the body. Even without the flashy animations, lights, sound effects. But those things amplify the effect, because it is their goal, both the Casino's and WG's goal, to give the person as much dopamine as possible.
-After not winning in the slots, the person is filled with dopamine, and feels the addictive effect of "maybe one more spin will let me win!" And continues to spend more money on more spins. And this process repeats, increasing the dopamine in the body even more and more, which can be very dangerous, and often leads people to spending all their money.
-After not getting the premium tank or skin or crew member that the person badly wanted, the person is filled with dopamine, and feels the addictive effect of "maybe I can get the tank/skin/crew member if I open one more box!" And continues to spend more money on more lootboxes. And this process repeats, increasing the dopamine in the body even more and more, which can be very dangerous, and often leads to people spending all their money.
Do you not see how they are obviously the same? You asked why I think lootboxes are gambling. The text above should make is clear as day.
Every single step, the whole process of gambling, is identical in every single way to gambling.
Like said before, the only difference is that people get guaranteed gold and premium days. Which makes absolutely no difference if the goal of the person is to win the "big prize". Which are the premium tanks, skins and crew.
The person who only cares about the tank/skin/crew, does not care about the gold and premium days.
When I gambled my money away to get a Type 59, all I cared about was getting the Type. I literally did not care about the gold and premium days that I got. It was useless to me at the point of transaction.
If casino's would create an online game and guarantee virtual currency in them for every chip they spend in their casino, it would still be seen as gambling, and the casino's would stay regulated.
World of Tanks is a Pegi 7 game.
It should either not have gambling in it, because 7 year olds are not allowed in a casino.
Or WoT should have an 18+ rating just like casino's.
This is the least that I demand, since lootboxes are factually gambling. I have already stated above why. It is the exact same thing, step by step. It just looks different and adds meaningless virtual currency that does not make any difference.
The only things I want is that people actually acknowledge lootboxes for the gambling that they are, and that games get rated and regulated accordingly.
Anything further than that is purely subjective. Some people think gambling can be in games, other people don't.
I personally don't like gambling in videogames. If I want to gamble, I'll go to a casino. I don't play videogames to be exposed to things that you're only supposed to find in a casino.
Gambling should, in my opinion, have nothing to do with videogames. Since it's an unethical way to make money off addicts. It has no place in videogames, and is purely added in to benefit from a tactic that just has no place in the videogame market, in my opinion.
However, as much as I think that gambling has no place in videogames, it is the game's owners' free choice to put gambling in their game or not. And I will respect that freedom, as long as the game is rated and regulated accordingly, and people acknowledge that it's gambling.
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