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The "You always get your value" argument


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StronkiTonki #1 Posted 18 December 2019 - 08:22 AM

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When it comes to the discussion of lootboxes and gambling, the most common argument I have seen, defending lootboxes, has to be that you "always get your value in gold, so it's not gambling."

 

Now before tackling this flawed argument, let's get some facts straight that we can all agree on:

-Gold can only exclusively be bought from WG. Fact? Fact.

-Once a player is in posession of gold, the person is not able to sell this gold for for any real money. Fact? Fact.

-This means that gold has no other monetary value than the price that WG gives to gold. Fact? Fact.

-Gold is also purely a virtual item. Fact? Fact.

 

We have established that WG is entirely responsible for the monetary value of gold. An item that is virtual and does not exist in the physical world.

WG decides how much "money" gold is worth, purely because they say so.

 

Now that we have established that, let's tackle the argument.

 

The argument:

"Lootboxes are not gambling, because you always get a guaranteed amount of gold that is worth equally or more to the amount of money you have spent on the boxes. Therefore, it is not a gamble. You never lose out."

 

Now please tell me:

If a real life casino creates a simple app that lets you get special virtual stickers for every cent that you spend in their casino, does that stop their casino from being gambling?

The casino can, just like gold, put any value on those virtual stickers. So the casino can just say that the virtual stickers are worth a certain amount of money, just like WG is saying that gold is worth a certain amount of money.

 

So do you honestly believe that a casino will suddenly not become gambling, just because they guarantee a virtual item that they themselves put a pricetag on?

According to all people defending lootboxes, it would not be gambling anymore.

Just let the casino owner say: Oh no, it's not gambling! You always get virtual stickers, you see? So you never lose out on any money!

If this was the case, casino's would've done so a long time ago to circumvent regulation.

Obviously this would never work, and casino's would continue to be gambling, despite guaranteeing "valuable" virtual stickers that are valuable just because they themselves put a price tag on it.

 

I already predict counter arguments like "Oh but in a casino you can win prizes that are worth real money. And in a lootbox, all the items you get are virtual items, including the highly sought after tanks."

To that I respond: That is besides the point. The point is that you are claiming, that guaranteeing a virtual item, that according to the seller has a monetary value, because they said so, stops it from being gambling.

According to that very same logic, any casino should be able to create virtual stickers, say they are worth money, and guarantee them upon any cents spent in the casino. And then not be gambling anymore.

 

I rest my case.


Edited by StronkiTonki, 18 December 2019 - 08:25 AM.


UrQuan #2 Posted 18 December 2019 - 08:38 AM

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Erm I hate to be a downer but your example with the virtual stickers & the casino is a real terrible one. Because that mechanism of 'virtual stickers' is widely used by many stores. It is the bonus point system; you get points for spending money that you can the use for discounts, special offers or even prizes. Don't think that system is considered gambling in any country.

 

Also the casino is always about gambling. It introducing a virtual ticket system doesn't change a thing even if the virtual ticket system itself is not gambling.

 

 

On the WG lootboxes & it being gambling. It depends on your point of view & what you want from them.

If you want gold from it? Then they're an nice way to stock up on it with bonus goodies on top. Not gambling, because you know you'll at least get 250 gold per box + bonus goodies.

If you buy them to get (specific) tanks from it, you're buying them to gamble  for non-guaranteed items and then it is indeed gambling.

In short the buyer intentions determine whether he's gambling or not with the lootboxes. This is not a common option with most lootbox systems tho.

 

Note that in the gaming world the Bonus Goodies option is sadly not a common thing. Most lootboxes in other games don't have a guaranteed content you can rely on which is what sparked the whole 'Lootboxes are gambling' controverse (because they were / are)

And to reaffirm, if you do buy the WG lootboxes to get a tank then it is indeed a gambling system.


Edited by UrQuan, 18 December 2019 - 08:41 AM.


fwhaatpiraat #3 Posted 18 December 2019 - 08:39 AM

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Good point. And also, those loot boxes sell so well because they might contain those premium tanks. If you buy yourself boxes for 100 bucks and you don't get any of the reward tanks, you'll be disappointed. Same with last year's Hype 59.

Some nice people gifted me some boxes and ofcourse I wanted those premium tanks as well but got none of that. Ofcourse I was disappointed, but still grateful to the people that were so kind to gift them.

 

Edit: response to UrQuan, indeed it offers good gold value. But still many don't necessarily need that gold. A friend of mine bought boxes worth of 400€, now has over 200k gold, yet has all premium tanks in the game and nothing really to spend it on (inb4 some other crazy black market offer). 


Edited by fwhaatpiraat, 18 December 2019 - 08:42 AM.


Ceeb #4 Posted 18 December 2019 - 08:39 AM

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There is a whole thread on this already.  Its been discuseed to death.

 

Personally, I do think its "form of gambling" and certain minds will chase the tank, like chasing the next card/horse/football etc gamble.

 

But, I'm responisble and wont spend what I cant afford, I was lucky to get ALL the toys in my 75 boxes , There will be people that spend £200-300+ just to get a tank or in thier minds a win, the Gold isnt a win for them. WG bank on this and excuse it but saying you get more than you pay for.

 

 

 

 


Edited by Ceeb, 18 December 2019 - 08:40 AM.


Jauhesammutin #5 Posted 18 December 2019 - 08:41 AM

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View PostStronkiTonki, on 18 December 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

 

Now please tell me:

If a real life casino creates a simple app that lets you get special virtual stickers for every cent that you spend in their casino, does that stop their casino from being gambling?

 

Obviously not. You can still win money (or other monetary rewards). That's what makes it gambling. If the only prize for said "casino" would be the stickers then it wouldn't be gambling. It would be the same as buying football, Pokémon or whatever cards.

 

Do you think Pokémon cards are gambling? No, they are not. You are buying a product. The said product can vary from pack to pack but you'll always get the same thing (amount of cards). You can't just lose all your money without getting anything in return, which happens in "real gambling". This is what WG is addressing with the "you'll never lose".

 

Are these lootboxes gambling? Not even close. Are they a good thing? That's another topic.



Captain_Kremen0 #6 Posted 18 December 2019 - 08:45 AM

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In the strict letter of the wording you do get your value in Gold.

It is only your flawed expectation of what you MIGHT get that screws your argument over a barrel.

Im not defending loot boxes here - only pointing out the stupidity of some peoples expectations.



woolfie #7 Posted 18 December 2019 - 08:45 AM

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Just keep in mind no-one is forcing anyone to buy or gamble.

 

Every player has free choice and it's a buyers market, if you want what is on offer then pay for it.

 

If you don't want it, don't like it or can't afford it then just move on.

 

No need for any drama.



SovietBias #8 Posted 18 December 2019 - 08:56 AM

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When I buy any offer on the premium store, I don't have uncertain outcomes. I get only one or more items with 100% chance, which are those specified in the package and not 'their value' in camo nets, premium days, or whatever other item WG decides to convert the offer into.

 

In an extreme case, if WG added the possibility of getting a 703 II or an E75 TS randomly in any 'standard' offer in the premium shop, let's say the fort knox package, it would still be a gamble. If they added a chance to get your money back randomly, it would be gamble, as much as if you randomly get nothing instead.

 

The gamble exists with the uncertain outcome, no matter its positive, 0 or negative expected value. 

 

However, I believe laws usually specify 'monetary value' and not just 'value', thus there is room for companies to create these products, for the time being.



BugPowderDust #9 Posted 18 December 2019 - 08:59 AM

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View Postwoolfie, on 18 December 2019 - 07:45 AM, said:

Just keep in mind no-one is forcing anyone to buy or gamble.

 

Every player has free choice and it's a buyers market, if you want what is on offer then pay for it.

 

If you don't want it, don't like it or can't afford it then just move on.

 

No need for any drama.

 

Thing is, this is the same for any addictions- gambling, smoking, sex, whatever. No-one is forcing the person to do any of it and yet, they do it because of different reasons.

 

The way I see it is this- can I spare the money without it impacting on my or my family's well-being? If yes, then do I do it to get a [insert tank name here]? Well yes (I fancied the E75 TS and double barrel tank), but if I don't, then the premium time, gold, "festive spirit" levels etc will also be welcome.

 

I bought 50 boxes, got the E75TS and some of the lower level stuff. I also got tonnes of gold and premium time, and now at festive level X, which not only boosts my silver income, but has granted me many blueprints, easing my grind significantly on many lines. I am very happy with what I have, knowing that if I still want the double barrel tank, it wlil undoubtedly be on sale in a month or two in the shop.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #10 Posted 18 December 2019 - 09:03 AM

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If you're buying the loot boxes for the cheap gold they're not gambling because you will always get exactly what you paid for, 250 gold, with a bonus on top which if your lucky will be even more gold. This is smart. 

 

If you're buying loot boxes to fish for a particular tank it is gambling, there is no guarantee you will get what you want. This is stupid. 



Jauhesammutin #11 Posted 18 December 2019 - 09:27 AM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 18 December 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

If you're buying the loot boxes for the cheap gold they're not gambling because you will always get exactly what you paid for, 250 gold, with a bonus on top which if your lucky will be even more gold. This is smart. 

 

If you're buying loot boxes to fish for a particular tank it is gambling, there is no guarantee you will get what you want. This is stupid. 

So if I'm buying a Subway sandwitch and hoping to get 5 jalapeños but only get 4 it means that Subway is gambling?

 

No, your analogy is poor. The person who is trying to get the tank is gambling. The system isn't gambling. 



Homer_J #12 Posted 18 December 2019 - 09:30 AM

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When a topic is closed because it has started going round and round in circles it's generally not the best idea to open it again.

 

Closed.






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