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armored cars are overpowered

balancing armored cars

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RalfHildebrandt78 #1 Posted 23 December 2019 - 04:17 AM

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Hello!

 

Armored cars are overpowered, because of their visible stats, but more because of their hidden stats and the overall effect of the combination of stats and I will try to explain why and try to give suggestions to balance them.

 

Their power-to-weight ratio is similar to other scouts, but their ground resistances is far better. The result is that armored cars just do not lose much speed - not at rugged terrain and not uphill. So even if a Rheinmetall Panzerwagen has better top speed and better power-to-weight ratio, one will never see a Rheinmetall Panzerwagen driving that fast as a Panhard EBR 105 - except for the theoretical test driving straight into one direction on flat ground. On top of that the tracks of scout tanks slip much more compared to the wheels of armored cars so that acceleration of tanks is worse - which is fully unrealistic.

 

It was the intention to make wheeled vehicels the "active scouts", because "passive scouting" + "sniping from a bush" became more effective during the past for classic scout vehicels. But the agility of wheeled vehicels is so super-high, that they race through enemy lines and just not get hit. Often it is just impossible to hit them, because turret rotation of other tanks is just too slow and I am not talking about close distances! And if turret rotation is fast enough the aiming reticle will bloom, so that hitting a wheeled vehicle is almost only based on luck. Sniping at weak spots of armored cars is just impossible.

 

In the days when VK 2801 was the topmost german scout and faced tier 10 enemies I did "active scouting" with this vehicle just because the camo rating of this tank is not suited for "passive scouting". And the VK 2801 had the worst agility of all tier 6 scouts of that time! So don't tell me that active scouting is not possible with existing scout tanks! On top of that I had a lot of fun with VK 2801 and later have received 3 gun marks with it. So in summary to encourage active scouting just give armored cars a little (!) better agility compared to scout tanks and reduce their camo rating!

 

If someone manages to hit an armored car, the outcome of the hit is ridicoulus! More than 50% of the side of an armored car is covered by the wheels and these wheels act as some super-power spaced armor. If armored cars get hit by high-caliber guns then often only a wheel gets hit because the probability of hitting a wheel is so high and often only one wheel gets minor damage ( "yellow" ) If they get hit by HE then the wheels soak much of that damage. Example: Panhard EBR 105 hit by HE from chinese heavy 113 at 90° angle into the side: 270dmg. The HE of the 113 has 68mm penetration capability and deal 560dmg! The Panhard EBR 105 has 40m armor at his thikest side. On top of that the splash of the HE should "seek" for weak spots (e.g. view ports) and one would expect, that an armored car is vulnerable to such an impact, but in WoT the wheels are like a sponge, that soak up all the damage. And finally if an Panhard EB 105 gets splased by a Conqueror Guncarrier the duration os the stun seems to be much less compared to other tanks. - Suggestion: Wargaming does not want to create a "glass cannon" as "active spotter", but what about making them especially vulnerable to HE? Most tanks do not have HE loaded if they get surprised by an armored car. This would introduce a higher requirement for skill of the tank drivers which I personally would like to see ( instead of "press 2 for skill" ).

 

If armored cars get hit by something, then often they drive on as if nothing has happend - even if it was a full AP penetration. The reson is because the modules of armored cars have super-high durability values - on par with medium tanks. It is so frustrating for tank drivers to get finally a hit and then to see that there is so little impact! And it is so super-unrealistic because in reality armored cars are designed to be more stealthy but much more vulerable compared to tank scouts.

 

On top of that armored cars get the "magnetic auto-aim" while regular tank drivers have even problems of getting any auto-aim lock onto an armored car - especially if there is bumpy terrain and armored cars bunny-hop over the battlefield!

 

But finally the gun-handling for armored cars is fully nuts! In reality the first tank with proper gun stabilization was the Leopard 2! But on WoT armored cars don't care a crapfor bumpy terrain because of their ridiculous aiming time. Then they get the highest shell velocity in the game, which is completely nonsense! The intention of Wargaming for both parameters was that manually aiming to give enough lead at this speed is impossible, but the result is that armored cars hit almost everything even why jumping over a bump while they almost never get hit. - In reality armored cars are designed to quickly advance to a good position and then hit from there while unseen but finally relocating to the next safe position. Proposal: make dispersion on the move for armored cars so high, that they can't hit while moving, give them additional camo bonus while being stationary (but keep the bad view range!) and give them a big camo malus after firing. And reduce that shell velocity a lot and reduce the precision a little bit! This will result in a playstyle like the old Hellcat with good camo rating but now having the difference that the armored car will most likely get spotted after firing. So armored cars can chose between "active scouting" and "painful bee stitches". (Remember the VK 2801 with the 105 howitzer? After one shot with that massive gun, the VK 2801 was most likely spotted and had to relocate.)

 

Did you think I was done? No. The DPM of armored cars is less than for regular scouts but not much: Panhard EBR 105: 1950, Rheinmetall Panzerwagen 2133. The difference is way too small! Remember the old VK 2801 having the 105mm howitzer? It was outclassed in terms of firepower by all other tanks, but in was incredibly fun to sometimes make hard and important hits - especially in the rear of AMX 50 100. THIS was active scouting and making a few, but important punches!

 

Summary of the problem: The agility of armored cars is so super-high, that hitting them is often pure luck and if they get hit, they the impact is often neglectible. On top of that armored cars are able to hit on the move much too frequently. Their wheels soak up most of the damage and their module durabilities are way too high.

 

Summary of the suggestions: "Active scouting" can be done even today in a sluggish VK 2801! If Wargaming needs to motivate players to do active scouting, then give them slightly better view range compared to now (but less than tank scouts), but give armored cars only a small advantage in agility! Give them a camo bonus while stationary, but (if stationary) set the view range so low, that passive scouting is not possible and give a big camo malus after firing. Make them vulerable to HE.

 

More advanced suggestion: View mechanics give the ability to see enemy tanks even if there is a bush between. This is necessary because otherwise WoT would be much more like a simulation which is unwanted. But what about blocking shots from armored cars if there is no line-of-sight? (Proposal: Gunners of armored cars will only fire if the bush is transparent. This proposal could be nice for all tanks in general.)

 

Ralf


Edited by RalfHildebrandt78, 23 December 2019 - 04:17 AM.


Spurtung #2 Posted 23 December 2019 - 04:50 AM

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tl;dr: the usual mimimimi.

 

 

Some bits worthy of note:

View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 23 December 2019 - 03:17 AM, said:

The HE of the 113 has 68mm penetration capability and deal 560dmg! The Panhard EBR 105 has 40m armor at his thikest side. On top of that the splash of the HE should "seek" for weak spots (e.g. view ports) 

Would this be a "WV taking HE shells" exclusive or all tanks would suffer the same effect?

 

View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 23 December 2019 - 03:17 AM, said:

Then they get the highest shell velocity in the game, which is completely nonsense!

Sure it's nonsense, because it's blatantly misinformed ignorance on display. Note, I call you ignorant, not liar, because you just don't seem to have the slightest clue here.

 

Leopard 1's premium shell is 300m/s faster than EBR 105's faster shell, for example. M48 Patton, and many others, have faster shells.

 

 

 

 

In short, I'll shed some light over a couple things that you repeat ad nauseam:

- tanks get hit by EBRs on the move often because they often stop to lead shots at them. Try this with any other tank, autoaiming. The static object gets hit much more often than it hits back.

- tanks miss shots at EBRs often because they try to lead shots instead of timing them. Autoaim it, wait until it's moving in a radial direction towards or away from you, shoot. Try it.


Edited by Spurtung, 23 December 2019 - 05:29 AM.


Neil_DaGrassSmokingTyson #3 Posted 23 December 2019 - 04:59 AM

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They are not OP they are just not needed in the game, anythingthat makes matches faster is inherently bad for the game. They pretty much make a lot of light tanks pointless and prevent people being aggressive in other tanks. It was content that wasn;t asked for and isn't needed. personally I'd rather see these removed from the game than those bobs that play arty and I can;t stand arty,

ZDN #4 Posted 23 December 2019 - 08:00 AM

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Only bad players and sniper wn8 clubers say ebr is a problem.Adapt to the game and survive or go extinct!

 

Learn to pre aim,and the ebr has no armor or hp,1300 in tier 10 it is a joke.Plus the view range it is very bad.And the cars need very good pc/players to play them good and not hit rocks/other objects that can damage them or stop them and get shot fast.So the ebr is ok,and makes the game active,only sniper on the red line and arty complain about them!


Edited by ZDN, 23 December 2019 - 08:01 AM.


BR33K1_PAWAH #5 Posted 23 December 2019 - 08:10 AM

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OP, you compared WVs to regular scouts and came to a conclusion that wheelchairs are OP.

But you missed the point. Which is that regular scouts, especially top tiers, are massively underperforming in current meta.

Fact that wheelchairs can effectively perform in their own role when tracked scouts struggle in their's doesn't make wheelchairs OP. 

 

#makescoutsgreatagain



GodTank2 #6 Posted 23 December 2019 - 08:14 AM

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Armored vehicles are overpowered more so because of the hidden stats? Well if the stats are hidden how do you know that they are overpowered?

 

EBR has wheels for a reason and not tracks, so it can drive faster than other lights that have tracks.

 

Slow turret rotation? Are you trying to hit an EBR with a heavy tank? Heavy tanks are not supposed to fight EBRs. A medium tank like lets say Leopard 1 can EASILY hit and pen an EBR on the full speed. Most medium tanks start packing 1.4k shell velocity at tier 10 so it makes it very easy to snipe anyone that is moving without much trouble.

 

Wheels dont absorb shells. Shells are only absorbed if you hit the wheels at a place where there is no hull behind them. Just like shooting at the bottom area of a track, its not going to damage the tank and many times it wont even track it will just "bounce" because you didnt hit the hull of a tank. HE rounds detonate immediately after impact so even 1mm of spaced armor is going to deny a penetration with HE. Also less stun by arty is not true.

 

EBR can be set on fire quite easily as well as lose modules such as ammo rack and engines, so thats not true.

 

Although the EBR's gun handling is really good you still cant hit more than 50% of your shots on the move because the reticle is still very big , unless the tank you are shooting at is like 50 meters close

 

You are comparing the EBR to the Rheinmetall Panzerwagen which is the worst light tank in the game atm. Compare the EBR's DPM to a real light tank competitor. AMX 13 105 ( Autoloader tank ) : 2.201.45 DPM , T-100 LT : 2.257.14 DPM , Sheridan : 2.847 DPM.



Gardar7 #7 Posted 23 December 2019 - 08:21 AM

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I don't think that they are OP but with the time and effort they spent on these game-breaking cars, they could easily implement a new nation (Hungary? :hiding:) - with which they could earn even more money. I think it was a really bad decision by WG, both economically and gameplay-wise.

Edited by Gardar7, 23 December 2019 - 08:22 AM.


ZDN #8 Posted 23 December 2019 - 08:48 AM

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Hungary tech tree? Soviet copy tanks? I like the t100lt more then ebr,i can spot pasive better(view range super turbo etc)

 

But bad players will say i cant use my bad light tank now,all the tier 10 light tanks need some love from wg,only the t100lt is ok.This is way people say ebr is ob and other lights(sheridan) or all the other trash lights cant play good now.

 

Slow turret tanks? I like to one shoot them using derp gun,or using the fv:trollface:   First you need to pre aim where the ebr will be,not track him on all the map,this makes your reticle huge and you will miss him.

 

Plus the auto aim of ebr it is not that great,it works only in straight lines,if you turn your tank you will sure miss the target.



Gardar7 #9 Posted 23 December 2019 - 09:09 AM

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View PostZDN, on 23 December 2019 - 05:48 AM, said:

Hungary tech tree? Soviet copy tanks? I like the t100lt more then ebr,i can spot pasive better(view range super turbo etc)

 

But bad players will say i cant use my bad light tank now,all the tier 10 light tanks need some love from wg,only the t100lt is ok.This is way people say ebr is ob and other lights(sheridan) or all the other trash lights cant play good now.

 

Slow turret tanks? I like to one shoot them using derp gun,or using the fv:trollface:   First you need to pre aim where the ebr will be,not track him on all the map,this makes your reticle huge and you will miss him.

 

Plus the auto aim of ebr it is not that great,it works only in straight lines,if you turn your tank you will sure miss the target.

 

I think the TD line could work easily and I'm sure that they could find some studies/researches like for the Polish to avoid from having Soviet clones.


Edited by Gardar7, 23 December 2019 - 09:12 AM.


arthurwellsley #10 Posted 23 December 2019 - 09:31 AM

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Dear OP

I went to your account and looked up the tanks that you have played. In particular I went to the french light tanks and WV.

Your highest tier french light is the tier IX AMX 13 90 (your other high tier light is the tier IX Spahpanzer). So no tier X lights on your account whatsoever.

You have played a mere 74 battles with the AMX ELC bis with frankly horrible results. I would therefore assume you sold it when you moved up to the tier VI AMX 12t.

But the fact is you have no Wheeled Vehicles on your account.

In my view any one who expresses a deeply held view on a class of vehicle in this game that they have not themselves played through is not talking from a position of strength or knowledge.

 

In comparison to you I have been playing through the WV line;

 

Panhard AMD 178B - played 46 battles, then sold it. 47,83% win rate and WN8 of 1911,60. -Difficult to effect the outcome of matches. I was not impressed with it enought to keep it.

Hotchkiss EBR - played 46 battles, then sold it. 56,52% win rate and WN8 of 1629,86. - Really awkward to play with the rear mounted turret.

Lynx 6x6 - played 63 battles. Still playing this as I have not yet researched the tier IX and all the radios for the tier IX. Win rate = 44,44% with WN8 of 1382,60. I am doing badly with it and not really enjoying it. In no way would I describe it as OP. I own an LT-432 premium USSR tier VIII light tank. In comparison with that I have a 71,43% win rate and WN8 of 2222,39.

 

Once I own the tier X wheeled vehicle and have played it a while I might venture an opinion on it. I already have AMX 13 105 and T-100LT so at least my comparison of ther tier X WV will be compared to my experience of the tier X lights, unlike you OP.



Cobra6 #11 Posted 23 December 2019 - 10:43 AM

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Just because regular light tanks above Tier 8 become progressively more garbage tier-for-tier, does not mean WV's are OP.

 

WV's are fine, as a matter of fact apart from the premium and perhaps the T10, all of them are underperforming to some degree.

 

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DangerMouse #12 Posted 23 December 2019 - 10:53 AM

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Looking at their WR they are clearly not OP but the tier 9 and 10 are just like arty, they cause teams to camp more and are broke, actually quite easy to fix as well, just increase the gun dispersion values and get rid of the high pen HE then they would be far less toxic.

 

DM



NUKLEAR_SLUG #13 Posted 23 December 2019 - 11:13 AM

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People need to stop comparing WV to standard lights, there may be some overlap but they have very different roles.

Balc0ra #14 Posted 23 December 2019 - 11:55 AM

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View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 23 December 2019 - 04:17 AM, said:

I will try to explain why and try to give suggestions to balance them.

 

You're not the first, and you won't be the last. But I would suggest to grind the line. Learning to counter it is easier if you know how they work when playing them. As then you might notice they are not like that every round. And they take module damage more then any class I've played. Nor are they great scouts on most maps due to the low base view range. Nor can they use the same tools as other lights.

 

View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 23 December 2019 - 04:17 AM, said:

which is fully unrealistic.

 

Fun fact. WOT is an arcade game. Not a tank sim. Most stuff are done for balance reasons more so than realistic behavior.

 

View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 23 December 2019 - 04:17 AM, said:

Often it is just impossible to hit them, because turret rotation of other tanks is just too slow and I am not talking about close distances! And if turret rotation is fast enough the aiming reticle will bloom, so that hitting a wheeled vehicle is almost only based on luck.

 

It's why most use the hull to help vs just the turret alone to get ahead faster. And why most aim ahead of its path and let the aim settle and then fire. Vs trying to follow it with a huge bloom.

 

View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 23 December 2019 - 04:17 AM, said:

On top of that the splash of the HE should "seek" for weak spots (e.g. view ports) and one would expect, that an armored car is vulnerable to such an impact, but in WoT the wheels are like a sponge, that soak up all the damage. And finally if an Panhard EB 105 gets splased by a Conqueror Guncarrier the duration os the stun seems to be much less compared to other tanks.

 

You do know how HE works right? If you hit a target, but don't pen. The shell makes a damage cone based on your splash and impact direction. Any module in that cone has a chance to get damaged based on the usual saving throw %. Tho that % only changes for crew if you fully HE pen. And if you have a small HE splash. Like on a HT vs arty or derp. That won't be huge, or reach much armor if you hit the wheels on the edge. If your splash is too small. It won't seek anything out.

 

And no... wheels are not like a sponge. They take 100% damage like tracks. The issue is that there is no armor behind most of them due to ground clearance. So with AP your shots hit the wheels and exits out the back into air. Thus you only do module damage. Solution... learn to aim higher if you hit there often. As for CGC stun? Well, stun timer is based on if you did fully pen it or not. If you never hit it directly... well. That and you do know there are ways to reduce arty stum timers too right?

 

View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 23 December 2019 - 04:17 AM, said:

Then they get the highest shell velocity in the game, which is completely nonsense!

 

It's indeed nonsense. As the 105 is not even on the middle range vs other tier X's with. It's even beaten by just about every med and some HTs even like the S conq. Even with HE, their shell velocity is not even on the middle range on tier X.  Even the IS-7 has more HE speed then the EBR.

 

View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 23 December 2019 - 04:17 AM, said:

Summary of the suggestions: "Active scouting" can be done even today in a sluggish VK 2801! If Wargaming needs to motivate players to do active scouting, then give them slightly better view range compared to now (but less than tank scouts), but give armored cars only a small advantage in agility! Give them a camo bonus while stationary, but (if stationary) set the view range so low, that passive scouting is not possible and give a big camo malus after firing. Make them vulerable to HE.

 

Have you compared the tier 6 wheely vs your VK? 310m base view range is not gonna passive spot anything. Nor can wheels use binocs to get their view range up when stationary. Speed is the tool they have to spot. As with 310 base, or 355m with a really good crew and optics. You have to get 100m or closer to spot most double bush campers vs your VK. EBR 105 gets more, but still has way less vs most lights. As most have about 400m in it with opitcs. And vs a tracked light with 490m. He still won't spot much sitting still vs targets with 30% or more camo on the more open maps. Vs using speed and getting close.

 



NekoPuffer_PPP #15 Posted 23 December 2019 - 12:15 PM

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WV's are the most fun I've ever had in this game, and OP is the reason we can't have nice things...

 

As others pointed out, OP doesn't even have any experience with WV's, 0 games played in them. That alone makes his opinions and views irrelevant and a waste of all our time.

 

WV's take a lot of getting used to. It's certainly not easy to drive them efficiently over the bumpy terrain of various maps, avoiding breakable obstacles in the process, which do slow you down considerably. One small mistake can lead to death. This is the kind of class which rewards good players for being good. OP's post is the generic "dumb the game down" attempt which, I can safely say, is what most of us are strongly against.



24doom24 #16 Posted 23 December 2019 - 03:22 PM

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broken, not OP. An untrackable light tank that goes faster than some players internet connections has no place in this game. 

TheJumpMaster #17 Posted 23 December 2019 - 03:26 PM

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Whilst there were some valid points made, I see no reason to keep a rant thread open, that does not offer anything new.

 

Cheers,

Jumpy







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