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armored cars are overpowered - part 2

balancing armored cars

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Cobra6 #41 Posted 24 December 2019 - 09:02 PM

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View PostBlackadder83, on 24 December 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

Before this thread closes, since players are not allowed to voice their opinions on certain aspects of the game that are completely out of place, like WV, I would just like to voice my unpopular opinion - NERF THEM or REMOVE THEM! They are OP, unbalanced and game breaking!

 

Statistically speaking they are under-performing so really wondering where you data is that they are OP?

 

But don't tell me Steve, you got outplayed by one didn't you?

 

Cobra 6



BR33K1_PAWAH #42 Posted 24 December 2019 - 09:31 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 24 December 2019 - 10:54 PM, said:

 

The he got owned by one data, it's the best kind! 


Nah, i'm sure he has plenty of strong arguments to back up his statement :trollface:



RalfHildebrandt78 #43 Posted 25 December 2019 - 06:41 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 24 December 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

They are not over powered, that is a simple fact, so they do not need nerfing, if anything they need buffing, only really the premium and tier 10 perform decently. 

 

Suggesting the tier 6 VK in a tier 10 game is some sort of reference level for light tanks is one of the most absurd things I have ever seen suggested on the forum,

 

Some years ago the VK 2801 was indeed the top of the german scout line. It was the best scout tank together with his tier 6 russian and american counterparts. It took me a while until I figured out, that this was indeed not nonsense, because of the spotting it was able to do.

 

My impression is, that all this dicsussion is based on perception and the used metric.

 

Perception? A driver of an armored car gets the impression, that he has low hitpoints and will lose modules soon if hit. A driver of a tank shooting at the armored car gets the impression, that he just can't hit this armored car and if he hits, that one of the wheels gets yellow and the armored car drives on as if nothing has happend.

 

Metric? This is more complex and I will spilt the discussion about the metric into several paragraphs:

 

Kill ratio: When I started WoT the post-battle result screen showed only the number of kills. Can you imagine how disappointed I was driving a Pz38nA and facing a Ferdinant as enemy? I felt so useless. Today I know, that I just did not use the potential of this tank. (And no - I am not talking about "press 2 for skill" .)

 

Overall damage: Later the post-battle result screen showed the damage done. Can you imagine how disappointed  I was driving scout tanks and dealing so little damage? I felt, that I had so little impact. Today I know, that I just did not use the potential of scouts.

 

Damage done by your assistance: This truely was something, that has opened my eyes ... or better: showed what I was getting to feel before. I started to get a feeling, that my spotting in scout tanks was helpful for the team and this number gave me an impression, that this was the truth. Today I know, that this number is quite a good metric, but it is not the one and only number that matters.

 

Shots fired at you / potential damage: World of Warships provides these numbers in the result screen. These give an expression about the distraction caused by a destroyer player (similar to scout tanks) or the threat made by a battleship player (similar to heavy tanks). If we would have these numbers in WoT, then I assume, that the distraction caused by armored cars could be measured in some way by this number. (But I don't expect, that this metric would the one and only.)

 

Win ratio: Of course the win ratio seems a rather good metric to get an overall impression. But is this really true? In my opinion the win ratio gives an impression how good a tank is in each and every situation. Remeber SPGs at Himmelsdorf and T95 at Prokhorovka? The effectivness of these vehicles highly depend on the situation they need to face. So what are the best tanks for win ratio? - Medium tanks! Just because they are a jack-of-all-trades and master of nothing. They better can adapt to many more situations than highly-specialized vehicles. Have a look at a M26 Pershing: except from his view range and his good turret armor all of his stats are mediocre to bad. But it performs quite well.

 

Lets assume a rather synthetic battle: several T95 (or other super-heavies) on a city map in assault battle mode as defender. I would guess, that it will be much more likely, that the defenders will win (except if the attackers use "press 2 for skill" . This synthetic example just visualizes, that some kind of tank can be the most important one depending on the siutation.

Now let's take a rather open map with some and soft hills. This is the terrain of scouts and armored cars. They can pop up behind these hills and hide. And armored cars can just use the differences in the altitude to make aiming at them even harder because the lead is not only to left / right but also to up/down. And because of their speed they can do early spotting to prevent TDs from reaching the bush / to make the bush a target for blind shots. (Remember that damage caused by blind shots is not counted by the metric "damage by your assistance" . This explains, why a single metric can never be the one and only one.)

 

Finally WoT is a team-based game. If there is a T95 at Himmelsdorf in the street of slaughter (line 8), then ... this is completely useless if his team leaves another flank wide open and everybody dies because of this. The same holds for scouts / armored cars: The team needs to make use of the spotting provided by them. And if an armored car does not do kamikaze running, but slips behind enemy lines in the middle to late game, then this is devastating ... if the team follows. In my opinion armored cars are similar to a T95 without frontal weak spots and being almost immune to HE. Armored cars only can be hit, if they make serious driving mistakes .. or by pure luck. But compared to a T95 on steroids armored cars can spot, distract, snipe, act in a rat-pack, relocate to the other flank and therefore have so much more potential. And in my opinion slipping behind enemy lines using an armored car is so much easier compared to tracked scout tanks, that this is done so often, that it is done too often to be good for the game. WoT ist faster and faster with each new stuff in the game, but do we really want to get a copy of Quake3Arena?

 

So are armored cars over-powered? Here we come back to perception and what you compare them to: compared to a T100LT (the "speed scout" with low profile (hard to hit) they are not so much faster and not so much harder to hit. Compared to a Sheridan they have so much less DPM, compared to other scouts they have less life points, but compared to the tanks they are facing during combat (which are mediums and heavies too), they are just too hard to hit and therefore "almost immune" to the shots fired (and missed) by other tanks. They are not over-powered in comparison to the raw stats of  light tanks, but compared to enemies, that need to shoot them, hit them /and/ to deal meaningful damage (not only a yellow wheel).

 

Often if something was identified as "too weak", Wargaming has buffed it. So should be increase shell velocities in general and to reduce dispersion to make it easier to hit armored cars? No! No! No! We need to make armored cars slower! They still should be "fast" and still should have the ability to slip behind enemy lines, but it should be more difficult to perform such an action. In my opinion passive spotting / bush sniping / active spotting / driving behind enemy lines and even distraction by driving at close range near to enemies all should be possible. But this crazy running behind enemy lines occurs much too often!

 

Ralf


Edited by RalfHildebrandt78, 25 December 2019 - 06:42 AM.


BR33K1_PAWAH #44 Posted 25 December 2019 - 07:35 AM

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View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 25 December 2019 - 08:41 AM, said:

 

Compared to a Sheridan they have so much less DPM, compared to other scouts they have less life points, but compared to the tanks they are facing during combat (which are mediums and heavies too), they are just too hard to hit and therefore "almost immune" to the shots fired (and missed) by other tanks.

 

:facepalm:

As Neko already pointed out you're speaking out of lack of experience. I urge you , i really do,to grind this line and find out for yourself how "almost immune" you will be.

So yeah, it comes down to a perception. Your perception is of one who never played the tanks which you claiming to be overpowered only because you have no knowledge of their weaknesses.



RalfHildebrandt78 #45 Posted 25 December 2019 - 09:56 AM

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View PostBR33K1_PAWAH, on 25 December 2019 - 06:35 AM, said:

As Neko already pointed out you're speaking out of lack of experience. I urge you , i really do,to grind this line and find out for yourself how "almost immune" you will be.

So yeah, it comes down to a perception. Your perception is of one who never played the tanks which you claiming to be overpowered only because you have no knowledge of their weaknesses.

 

Ok .. then let me do you style of argumentation to you:

 

A player with not even 8k battles? This can be called as not really experienced.

A player with 2.7k battles played in mediums (2.7k/8k = 33%)? This can be called as biased (mediums are the best armored car hunters).

A player with 4k battles in russian tanks. This is definitely biased!

And finally a player who has not played a single battle in an armored car!

Such a player judges over me and tells me, that I have lack of experience (33k battles, 8.9k in mediums (27%)) and because I did not drive armored cars I cannot say that they are overpowered.

 

Do you like this style of argumentation? I don't.

 

I fully agree, that it is always better to try in on my own and to drive these armored cars to get an impression about their weaknesses. I am a player who plays this way (6k battles in lights, 8.9k in mediums, 8.5k in heavies, 7.9k in TDs) and tries to get a good overview to learn the weaknesses of each tank - and the impact on actions on the team efficiency. But I would say I would need to go up to at least tier 8 of the armored car line to get a sophisticated impression. This would take several months until I am not allowed to discuss about armored cars from your point of view. But isn't it enough for a start of a discussion to just discuss from the view point of a tank driver having armored cars as enemy?

 

And let me add something: I state that armored cars are overpowered, because this is a topic about these vehicles. I also state that a lot of light tanks are overpowered too. And I have to state that most russian tanks have in summary more strenghts than their counterparts from other nations and often the more relevant strenghts. If you compare french armored cars to these overpowered russian mediums (all starting from tier 8 and higher), then the difference is not so high. But if take into the comparison also german, chinese, british, american, ... tanks, then this is something different.

 

Ralf



BR33K1_PAWAH #46 Posted 25 December 2019 - 10:26 AM

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View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 25 December 2019 - 11:56 AM, said:

 

Ok .. then let me do you style of argumentation to you:

 

A player with not even 8k battles? This can be called as not really experienced.

A player with 2.7k battles played in mediums (2.7k/8k = 33%)? This can be called as biased (mediums are the best armored car hunters).

A player with 4k battles in russian tanks. This is definitely biased!

And finally a player who has not played a single battle in an armored car!

Such a player judges over me and tells me, that I have lack of experience (33k battles, 8.9k in mediums (27%)) and because I did not drive armored cars I cannot say that they are overpowered.

 

Do you like this style of argumentation? I don't.

 

I'm totally ok with it.

And though i never played a WV i also ain't claiming that they are OP. Because it's not up to me or you to to determine if their performance is out of boundaries or not. There is data for that matter and that data clearly shows that most wheelchairs are rather underperforming and they require buffs to be viable in current meta.

What's you'r or mine personal opinion of them is - it doesn't matter. There is hundreds of players on servers playing those tanks and they generate enough data to render any subjective opinion irrelevant.

 

View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 25 December 2019 - 11:56 AM, said:

 

And let me add something: I state that armored cars are overpowered, because this is a topic about these vehicles.

You statement that wheelchairs are OP was based on your comparison of them to regular scouts and nitpicking particular stats. Players already pointed out for you that compared to scouts pretty much everything is OP.

 

View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 25 December 2019 - 11:56 AM, said:

I also state that a lot of light tanks are overpowered too

You can also state that Earth is flat and Kennedy was martian. 

Unless you provide at least some adequate argumentation for your statements no one will take em seriously.

 

View PostRalfHildebrandt78, on 25 December 2019 - 11:56 AM, said:

 

If you compare french armored cars to these overpowered russian mediums (all starting from tier 8 and higher), then the difference is not so high.

Really? Ok, what tanks we should compare to each other? Pick two :popcorn:

 


RaxipIx #47 Posted 25 December 2019 - 11:54 AM

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From all the changes WG did, the introduction of  wheeled vehicles i hate the most.

 

After playing against them for some time i actually think they are broken. Very hard to hit, very hard to slow them down. And they completely ruin others gaming experience on some maps.

 

The fact that an ebr 90 /105 can be  behind enemy lines 1 minute in the game / kill 3 artas/ harass  the back lines and then run away without dying while half the team is trying to shoot and kill it is silly.



Warzey #48 Posted 25 December 2019 - 01:18 PM

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View PostRaxipIx, on 25 December 2019 - 10:54 AM, said:

The fact that an ebr 90 /105 can be  behind enemy lines 1 minute in the game / kill 3 artas/ harass  the back lines and then run away without dying while half the team is trying to shoot and kill it is silly.

 

Other light tanks can do that as well. They will die 9 out of 10 times, but there's that one time they'll get away with it, therefore it works. 



blacklupos #49 Posted 25 December 2019 - 02:54 PM

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Lol yeah, the tier 10 is definitely not broken, have better armor than heavies and best scout in game. I wonder why almost everyone plays them in tier 9-10 and not the other scouts... What a joke
 

Edited by blacklupos, 25 December 2019 - 02:55 PM.


RaxipIx #50 Posted 25 December 2019 - 03:15 PM

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View PostWarzey, on 25 December 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

 

Other light tanks can do that as well. They will die 9 out of 10 times, but there's that one time they'll get away with it, therefore it works. 

Yes  i know. I really love my LT's and have done it several times. with one key difference. and that's consistency.

Also the general gameplay of these WV is the yolo one, , at least that's how people play them in games i am in. And these things yolo all around until

:-they suicide with no benefit for the team what so ever, nobody is in render to shoot what it spots

-they fight the other vw  yolo  around the map with both teams target practicing and failing most shots unless lucky.

-one survives and trolls the whole team from the back ranks with auto aim going full speed.

-and let's say the only beneficial aspect, it can root out TD's from op positions.

 

Subjectively speaking , since these things got introduced my gaming experience got worse because of all this high speed zooming around the map.

 

Not to mention they really break some maps, esp if one team gets one and the other does not.

 

 


Edited by RaxipIx, 25 December 2019 - 03:17 PM.


24doom24 #51 Posted 25 December 2019 - 03:19 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 24 December 2019 - 08:39 AM, said:

Dear OP

I went to your account and looked up the tanks that you have played. In particular I went to the french light tanks and WV.

Your highest tier french light is the tier IX AMX 13 90 (your other high tier light is the tier IX Spahpanzer). So no tier X lights on your account whatsoever.

You have played a mere 74 battles with the AMX ELC bis with frankly horrible results. I would therefore assume you sold it when you moved up to the tier VI AMX 12t.

But the fact is you have no Wheeled Vehicles on your account.

In my view any one who expresses a deeply held view on a class of vehicle in this game that they have not themselves played through is not talking from a position of strength or knowledge.

 

In comparison to you I have been playing through the WV line;

 

Panhard AMD 178B - played 46 battles, then sold it. 47,83% win rate and WN8 of 1911,60. -Difficult to effect the outcome of matches. I was not impressed with it enought to keep it.

Hotchkiss EBR - played 46 battles, then sold it. 56,52% win rate and WN8 of 1629,86. - Really awkward to play with the rear mounted turret.

Lynx 6x6 - played 63 battles. Still playing this as I have not yet researched the tier IX and all the radios for the tier IX. Win rate = 44,44% with WN8 of 1382,60. I am doing badly with it and not really enjoying it. In no way would I describe it as OP. I own an LT-432 premium USSR tier VIII light tank. In comparison with that I have a 71,43% win rate and WN8 of 2222,39.

 

Once I own the tier X wheeled vehicle and have played it a while I might venture an opinion on it. I already have AMX 13 105 and T-100LT so at least my comparison of the tier X WV will be compared to my experience of the tier X lights, unlike you OP.

 

TD:LR OP does not own any WV and has insufficient experience of them to comment.

So the experience of playing against them isn't valid?

 

ok buddy



TheJumpMaster #52 Posted 25 December 2019 - 03:21 PM

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OP, there is a pinned thread for suggestions.

 

This thread will be closed.

 

Cheers,

 

Jumpy







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