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Learn those new players how and where to go on every map for each vehicle!

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Strappster #21 Posted 29 December 2019 - 04:21 PM

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Why do so many players complain about bots and then complain that no one's playing the game 'properly' by taking the same tank to the same place on each map? Playing by rote is the most bot-like behaviour I can think of short of going AFK in every battle. It's almost as though neither argument has been given any consideration at all but simply vomited on to the forum as the latest in a long line of never-my-fault excuses for poor gameplay.

OneShot_OneDollar #22 Posted 29 December 2019 - 08:13 PM

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View PostSpurtung, on 29 December 2019 - 01:44 AM, said:

There's no such thing as "HTs go here" and "TDs do this".

 

In fact, such ideas are counterproductive.

Yes there is, not in all maps but these things are exist. Do you really think that team and other players will be happy or will nothing say about some armory HTs staying in the base in Malinovka and then died fast after a good spoter on the other team? Or a only one LT will be in TD's postion? 


Edited by OneShot_OneDollar, 29 December 2019 - 08:39 PM.


Mr_Burrows #23 Posted 29 December 2019 - 08:19 PM

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...not to mention the few times someone bothers, those that would benefit from listening does not... 

The most obvious type of people that does not listen are those that come to the forum, whine about "bot aim haxx0r", have over 18K games and a WR of about 44%. 

 

Or to put it this way; people have tried. Most have given up. 

 

But if you want some advice, then stay low tier until you reliably do your own HP in damage. Only then move up. Where you go, how you do it and all that other jazz does not really matter much. If you cannot carry your own HP, then stay at that tier. 

View PostStimpeltje, on 29 December 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:


yea

 

If people want to be useless turds, let them be

 

They are. And so many of then have just died their way up the ranks. They will never listen to sound advice anyway. 



kaneloon #24 Posted 29 December 2019 - 08:36 PM

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View PostDesyatnik_Pansy, on 29 December 2019 - 01:19 AM, said:

 

No if I recall correctly it was mostly just the player continuing to insist he was at fault for throwing the game. It's long since locked and all and some of the images are no longer visible, but I still have the thread saved if you wanna see for yourself:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/485607-locked-how-can-a-unicum-get-5515-points-of-damage-and-lose-the-game/

 

I didn't read the 40 pages but the summary of the first pages is a tiers 8 player accusing a tiers X of throwing the victory (enemy caping) by rampaging the enemy camp to just farm its final 5.5k damage.

Before that the unicum took the "medium" path with its heavy.

 

Arguments of both sides were grounded imho.

The unicum said that he was expecting a better defence...

The t8 player is impressive by resisting the stats & results sniping ;)



OneShot_OneDollar #25 Posted 29 December 2019 - 08:37 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 29 December 2019 - 02:04 AM, said:

No perfect map tutorial will make them any better or react to a dynamic situation as "awesome" as you.

 

The best way for new players to learn is not by a silly tutorial telling you the how-to for that map for a meta that will change next week. But rather to die, crash, fail and make mistakes. And figure out what went wrong, so they learn how to react next time. No 20 min tutorial will learn them that.

 

 

Actually, most are losing because they are staying in base with their TD's and not reacting as is. And just because you are a HT, don't mean you will do best on the HT lane. As you have support HTs with no armor, or +2MM that will render it useless. And again... learning by failure is still a better tool there too for them to figure out that their VK 30.01 should not go first on a HT lane when the enemy has a T29 waiting for it.

 

Classes have subclasses that do different roles better. And learning when to use them vs what and where is not something you learn overnight. It took me thousands of battles to figure out most of it.... by failing.

 

View PostGixxer66, on 29 December 2019 - 08:17 AM, said:

Everything is situational - If I'm bottom Tier in my T-29 there's no way I'm going to try and brawl with T9 heavies in the "heavy lane" it would be suicide. I'm much better trying to find a position that I can use my tanks strengths against either same tier or +1 tier tanks. On the other hand as a top tier heavy, lets say in my KV3 I'm going to find a corner sidescrape and try punish anyone making mistakes, and hopefully act as a shield for my team.

 

Everyone makes mistakes with their initial read and positioning, even after nearly 20K games I screw up regularly, not as often as a new player but still too often.

 

No point in raging, people will never play the game the way  you think is right, as we all play with different motivation / reasons, skill levels. Sure it can be frustrating, at which point it's best to take a break.

View PostTheJ4ckal, on 29 December 2019 - 04:17 AM, said:

You do realise what you want will never happen.

This is a game that ANYONE can play. Most of the players will be in the medium to low category. People that really know what they are doing are a tiny percentage in this game. Those tiny percentage are in the best position to teach strategy on each map during the game but they dont.

To get good is very hard and longwinded and most players dont even have the time to go off and learn, they play a few hours a week cos they like how tanks look.

Even if WG fixed MM to your own specifications, gave everyone free gold ammo and strong armour, you will still get people that dont know the map on your team. You as the more experienced player are the only one who can change that in game. Tell people where to go, when to hold back, where the enemy will come from. Then these people will get better....SLOWLY.

Bitching about players will never improve anything, because there will be a constant supply of new players.

Also bear in mind that the enemy is saying exactly the same thing about their own team. 

Soo much energy is wasted moaning about stuff that will never change, it is human nature, you cant change it. Noobs will always exist, especially in a game with such large teams. The few good players in each team need to change more than the noobs do.

You are half the problem too. Thats not an insult just trying to expand your thinking.

The thing is, compare a game with a rules on the road, no really, just compare. What we learn when we pass a school to get a driver's license? Not only how to drive a vehicle but also how to drive on the road and where you are allowed to drive and where you are not allowed, and where you must think with your own brain, (mostly in Belgium a lot of roads without traffic light). Where motos can drive and where cannot, etc etc.

And after that, I dont say that there must have rules like that, just at least there must be something saying about a logic "how to play the game" and after, player must make choices himself to try help the team and do reasonable things to try not only have some dmg but also to win the battle.

 

Like I did in Kharkov, I had a MT and I went to the city, and after I looked at the map and seen that all of Heavys went to the city and some meds and TDs were on the hill, so I went to the hill, because they were less and more because one light tank was behind destroying houses, maybe he was testing his new hardware to see how physics work in this game, but anyway, I thought about my team and about to try to win the battle and not like others, do some dmg and die and take other tank after. 

 

So, what I was saying is, they can just add a some sort of a tutorial, at least an image illustrating the logic of the game, like I said before.


Edited by OneShot_OneDollar, 29 December 2019 - 09:09 PM.


OneShot_OneDollar #26 Posted 29 December 2019 - 08:57 PM

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I can give just a little exemple you know. "In open maps like Malinovka, Province, Overlord etc. lights must make a good spot on the map because only light have such higher "spot" than other tanks (and pls dont say about HTs which have a higher meters of spot 'thing', new players must thing and know that only Lights have must spot not the Heavy tank, they have it only when they have one HT in the team and he can help himself, spotting other etc etc.) and what I was saying is after a good spot from light/s, other tanks must Efficiently USE it, use the time when other team is visible and make must efficient and effective results to approach a victory! After we have TD, usually they must stay in postions where we have a good concealement, but that depends of some TDs and maps too, and why they most stay there, because imagine some of lights will try to spot our team so we have ours, and TD can destroy them without spotting all our team." Or something like that, That was just an EXEMPLE, because I seen you wrote somme off topic things, just, an, exemple, OK? 

 

This is just my idea.



iuytr #27 Posted 29 December 2019 - 08:58 PM

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Is there a mod so we can program in what we do for each tank on each map? Combine with an autoaim mod and then all we have to do then is let the mods play it! What a great idea!

Edited by iuytr, 29 December 2019 - 08:59 PM.


nakkipeppu #28 Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:00 PM

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View PostOneShot_OneDollar, on 29 December 2019 - 09:13 PM, said:

Yes there is, not in all maps but these things are exist. Do you really think that team and other players will be happy or will nothing say about some armory HTs staying in the base on Malinovka and then died fast after a good spoter on the other team? Or a only one LT will be in TD's postion? 


These are the myths that people keep on spinning and seem to get everybody riled up for nothing - there just isn't a set way to play most of the maps.

 

You pretty much win the game by doing smart things over dumb things whenever a opportunity for a choice is given. An armored HT should go do whatever gives his team the best mileage out of his gun and resiliency. And a team that does smart things should win over a team that just deploys with a paint by numbers scheme, by, for example, just overpowering a single flank while the opposing heavies durdle uselessly in their supposed traditional HT positions. In case like that, just bleeding HP and dealing damage to opposing heavies at "heavy lane" doesn't really do give any mileage to the team, as they were basically at useless position to start with, it just allows opponents to get mileage out of their heavies.

 

And then there are "heavies" like IS-3, which can pretty much just do what-the-bleep-ever the player feels like, and be useful.

 

 



OneShot_OneDollar #29 Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:02 PM

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View Postiuytr, on 29 December 2019 - 08:58 PM, said:

Is there a mod so we can program in what we do for each tank on each map? Combine with an autoaim mod and then all we have to do then is let the mods play it! What a great idea!

You said that, not me.



kaneloon #30 Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:18 PM

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So many factors can motivate a player to go somewhere with its tank ... 

- do I have the speed to go there unspotted ?

- do I have the depression to go there ?

- am I top tiers or not ?

- is there arty, how many ?

- will I have a chance in town regarding their and our heavy/tanking td combo ?

- can I spot for others, will I have support ?

=> there are no rules other than experience and thinking.

 

This said it's often where/when you decide to shift from one side to the other that brings victory.

20:23 Added after 5 minute
I asked a long time ago to Skill4ltu why he went there and not the other side, he couldn't really explain. He did the thinking without thinking ;)

Karasu_Hidesuke #31 Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:26 PM

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Could someone put together like a spreadsheet for this? Pretty please. :hiding:

kaneloon #32 Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:34 PM

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Simple : just watch hours of streamers and download all the replays for each tank.

 

Then compile all the data, including their teams. You have your excel file.

 

Now refresh it every patch.



Robbie_T #33 Posted 30 December 2019 - 04:34 AM

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Gameplay experience went down hill in 2019 in rapid speed!

And will get worse in 2020.

I sayd it the whole year that xp boosting gonna be a problem and TADA here it is.

biggest problems are

 

-Lt's bring back LT always bottom tier so there main roll is spotting!

now its or you have a suicide LT...or a backline sniping one(now that they can do some dmg)

the in between LT that serve his team is gone

 

-Wheelys..should be changed

1 there hitbox 

2 rework every map (make them bigger)

 

-Meds playing sniper.....if you ahve paper tds and some meds expect in 2019 half your team is on the backline sniping and annoying each other,

With the problem that one flank is completly open.And than they come with ther excuse meds are good snipers........

Plz explain why Wg gave ya 55kmh+ to beat paper tds to there spot???

 

T3485M is not a sniper especially when they are top tier !!!!!

Progetto aint a sniper especially top tier!!

Obj 430 aint no sniper!!!!

German meds i can somewhat understand they  holding back and some others also

.

Example Murovanka how many battles i had these holidays where there was not a single med and Lt to be found in forrest!

flank completly open other team meds  did go forrest battle LOST>.

 

-Heavy's the starting class but Russian,Japanese,and Polish heavys are no snipers so plz move from the backline!

 

-Tds Paper tds when we have 3/4 of the map and we trying to get the burries in snipers of the enemy team plz move and not stay on a useless spot the whole game.

Assault tds.....T95 plz dont snipe (maybe some occasions )but on city maps plz move with the heavys!.

 

-Arty remove 3 a side and make sure they cant drown anymore!want to type more but would get a ban 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Robbie_T, 30 December 2019 - 04:56 AM.


AlexTheRieur #34 Posted 30 December 2019 - 10:06 AM

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View Postkaneloon, on 29 December 2019 - 09:18 PM, said:

I asked a long time ago to Skill4ltu why he went there and not the other side, he couldn't really explain. He did the thinking without thinking ;)

Skill4ltu: Let's pretend it never happened...The cheap person is paying twice... Everything is fine let's take this position... Ok so...Let's keep punishing them for their mistakes and bad decisions...


Edited by AlexTheRieur, 30 December 2019 - 10:16 AM.


evilchaosmonkey #35 Posted 30 December 2019 - 10:54 AM

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Little surprised to hear people imply there's no set way to play the maps (if I've understood them correctly).

All the maps are designed by WG to be played in a certain way, though of course each battle being filled with random numps means that anything can and frequently does happen.

 

More often than not both teams position themselves in accordance with what the map layout suggests and await the fight.

 

So IMO a basic assistance tool to indicate to new players the areas on the map intended for their tank would be good.

Switch it off at tier 6 game play perhaps, that should allow for "specialist" tanks like the leopard to be learnt from experience.

 

ps. there are bigger problems than this (which is fairly rare) that need fixing - AFK and red line heavy tank players being two.



Karasu_Hidesuke #36 Posted 30 December 2019 - 11:48 AM

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View Postevilchaosmonkey, on 30 December 2019 - 09:54 AM, said:

Little surprised to hear people imply there's no set way to play the maps (if I've understood them correctly).

All the maps are designed by WG to be played in a certain way, though of course each battle being filled with random numps means that anything can and frequently does happen.

 

More often than not both teams position themselves in accordance with what the map layout suggests and await the fight.

 

So IMO a basic assistance tool to indicate to new players the areas on the map intended for their tank would be good.

Switch it off at tier 6 game play perhaps, that should allow for "specialist" tanks like the leopard to be learnt from experience.

 

ps. there are bigger problems than this (which is fairly rare) that need fixing - AFK and red line heavy tank players being two.

 

Good ideas. The heavy tanks, though... can you blame them for not wanting to push into the unknown. Without spotting, all they can do is try and guess what and where they are up against. The biggest threats are always the 'invisible' back line snipers, the TD's. Even a cautiously advancing HT can quickly be caught in crossfire, made worse by those wheeled things and come out of nowhere like hornets out of their nest.


Edited by Karasu_Hidesuke, 30 December 2019 - 11:48 AM.


tajj7 #37 Posted 30 December 2019 - 12:03 PM

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View PostSpurtung, on 29 December 2019 - 12:44 AM, said:

There's no such thing as "HTs go here" and "TDs do this".

 

In fact, such ideas are counterproductive.

 

This 

 

View PostDesyatnik_Pansy, on 29 December 2019 - 12:55 AM, said:

 

To add onto this, there is a significant difference in how a lot of vehicles within a same class play. A Leopard 1 Is obviously designed to be more passive than a 430U, or a Strv 103B vs. a T110E3. Add onto that, based on match-up, you may be able to/be unable to use a position you might normally use in the vehicle you're in. Even further, you might get a game where your tank is perfectly designed to go position x, but your entire team is going the other way, so you would be doing nothing more than willingly throwing your tank away to go there even though it's where your vehicle is most suited.

 

These threads though always make me think of a certain NA Thread that I always love to look back to, with a bad player basically going full reeeee at a unicum for taking his Heavy (113) to what the OP Described as the "medium flank" rather than fight an outnumbered battle against enemy Heavies, something like 1 vs. 4. :teethhappy:

 

And this

 

(and yes that thread was hilarious and pretty much summed up the whole 'x tank most go here' attitude)

 

'TDs must camp' causes assault TDs like E3s and Torties camping on the red line when the team needs their armour and firepower at the front, plus it means full HP TDs don't use their HP end game and you have players in their Waffles or Strvs etc. demanding one shot tanks spot for them when they have all the teams hit points.

 

'Heavy flank and medium flank' is also pretty much nonsense, most maps there are actually key map positions and flanks, and less important ones and you lead to situations like we had in a game last night where in a game with barely any heavies and no arty our IS7 player went round the hill on mines, when we needed him to hold the middle and he would have dominated. Other examples are like heavies going city on Live Oaks when the south flank along the train tracks most of the time decides the game and if too many go city you basically lose. 

 

Where you go on a map is about reading your team's line up, the enemy team's line up, how your team deploys, how the enemy team deploys and your tank's characteristics. 

 

You might be in a Leo 1 on Ruinberg, but if your team has more armour and invests in the city you are better off playing support in the city than dying alone or camping the field. 

 

Thing is decisions like that require people to engage the brain, read the mini-map, look at the line ups, plan etc. and we know that the vast majority of players just basically press W and do the same thing they have done for the last 200 games on this map, it's why WVs have caused such a problem IMO because they shake up the meta and challenge players early, challenge their deployment, where they go and people don't have a clue what to do.

 

Teaching new players about 'heavy flanks' and 'medium flanks' is counter productive because it's teaching them to not think for themselves and to not be pro-active, you can't rote learn the game because every match is different, you have players do different things, different tactics in multiple different tanks.  Much better to teach them to read the mini-map, read the line ups and try to predict what is going to happen and how they best can position themselves to counter the enemy or take advantage of their mistakes, not just default going to the same spot. 



Strappster #38 Posted 30 December 2019 - 01:56 PM

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View Postevilchaosmonkey, on 30 December 2019 - 09:54 AM, said:

Little surprised to hear people imply there's no set way to play the maps (if I've understood them correctly).

All the maps are designed by WG to be played in a certain way, though of course each battle being filled with random numps means that anything can and frequently does happen.

 

More often than not both teams position themselves in accordance with what the map layout suggests and await the fight.

 

So IMO a basic assistance tool to indicate to new players the areas on the map intended for their tank would be good.

Switch it off at tier 6 game play perhaps, that should allow for "specialist" tanks like the leopard to be learnt from experience.

 

ps. there are bigger problems than this (which is fairly rare) that need fixing - AFK and red line heavy tank players being two.

 

Paris was designed as you suggest - heavy brawling area, TD shelf on each side of the field, direct sight lines to the central point, etc. and it's one of the most commonly blocked maps as a result. Players like options, not dictated gameplay. 



evilchaosmonkey #39 Posted 30 December 2019 - 01:59 PM

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View PostBrinklyWollox, on 30 December 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

 

Paris was designed as you suggest - heavy brawling area, TD shelf on each side of the field, direct sight lines to the central point, etc. and it's one of the most commonly blocked maps as a result. Players like options, not dictated gameplay. 

 

They do indeed, nevertheless options or otherwise that's not how the maps are generally designed - not all perhaps, but most.

That doesn't mean I don't advocate looking at teams, anticipating actions and going where it's needed - just that in general tank positioning tends to follow set patterns in accordance with the maps.



unhappy__bunny #40 Posted 30 December 2019 - 02:38 PM

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Just before Christmas, playing with 2 clan mate in T7 heavies in a T8 battle, on the map with the Zeppelins and spawning in the south base, we decided to go left to the castle. Half way there and our armchair general was pinging us and screaming things like "OMG We lose" and "Heavies aint Meds". We ignored him and continued. Now, the broken zeppelin is know as a spot for Heavies to go and brawl, which is fine, but often if you win that fight you have to cross a killing zone guarded by TD's and spotted from the hill in the centre. Our decision was based on that and the fact that the most likely opposition at the castle would be meds, so being bottom tier we pushed the castle, destroyed the meds allowing our meds to attack the hill from the rear. We cleaned up the arty and a couple of TD's, pushed past the base, took out the TD's guarding the kill zone and fell upon the enemy heavies from behind. The battle was won, the arm chair general survived and all he could say was "Why did you go with the meds? We needed you to fight their heavies". You just can't please some people.

 

To the OP. 

I challenge you to write a tutorial covering every tank, every map, and every possible combination of tiers and distribution of tanks. 

Covering everything you say should be taught to players. Then find a way to get every player to read or watch it. Can you do that? 







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