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Fjords - Why is the H3 "bush-spot" still in the game?

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Ratriq #1 Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:00 AM

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So in a match earlier on fjords, I hid in the bush location at H3 and managed to fend off 4 enemies by (mostly) myself and they literally can't spot me and if they did yolo and push right into me. It would almost be suicide for them cause an O-Ni hid further away and another fellow KV-2 later came to help so they'd expose themself while rushing a hidden KV-2 behind cover and other in their eyes, rightfully so, other unknowns tanks hiding. 

It got me thinking, how is this spot still in the game?
The spot not only has so that many bushes that the enemy can't even spot tanks hiding in this location, but it also have a big rock as cover and even then the tanks in hiding can go in reverse and hide in a ditch if the rock is starting to get flanked.
What are they actually supposed to do in a situation like this? while also losing all other sides, they have to push through this flank to not get surrounded but that would be suicide. 
http://wotreplays.eu/site/5169523#stats
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Edited by Ratriq, 05 January 2020 - 12:11 AM.


TungstenHitman #2 Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:03 AM

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Better question, why is Fjords still in the game?

Ratriq #3 Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:06 AM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 04 January 2020 - 11:03 PM, said:

Better question, why is Fjords still in the game?

Honestly, while I know this map is hated, as long as I'm not the tank who has to yolo into that bush-location to dig out a hidden enemy, I mostly enjoy fjords



TomatoShooter #4 Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:30 AM

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If that bush becomes an important bush both teams are doing it wrong...

Ratriq #5 Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:58 AM

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View PostTomatoShooter, on 04 January 2020 - 11:30 PM, said:

If that bush becomes an important bush both teams are doing it wrong...

Care to explain how it should be played then?
Cause from I see it, the north team got an extremely strong defensive position so, what you are saying is that it shouldn't be used for its actual purpose? The north team can either chose to camp and wait for the enemy to push in thinking in the flank is abandoned or fall back you get pushed out. Either way, it's a very powerful spot to defend in.

And what exactly should the enemy team do? Just ignore it and camp, thus just waiting for who will push first and not help your team in doing any dmg or anything? Or should you push through another flank while later getting attacked from behind cause you just left the flank unprotected?
The enemy team have to push through that bush if they want or not, but because it is such an extremely strong position sometimes it becomes close to impossible, even if you outnumber your enemy.
It would also be foolish by the north team to not try to use the bush location at first to wait and lure in the enemies into pushing to later ambush them or just using it as a fallback point.



TomatoShooter #6 Posted 05 January 2020 - 01:20 AM

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In all my games + the 50k games I watched my big brother play I never ever saw a game on Fjords where that bush on H3 was game winning.. Fights normally take place at J4/5, shooting eachother at the F-line, the middle of the map around E4/5, campers  in bushes on 4 and 8 line.

 

From wotguru:

World of Tanks Fjords Strategy


Edited by TomatoShooter, 05 January 2020 - 01:22 AM.


Ratriq #7 Posted 05 January 2020 - 02:37 AM

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View PostTomatoShooter, on 05 January 2020 - 12:20 AM, said:

In all my games + the 50k games I watched my big brother play I never ever saw a game on Fjords where that bush on H3 was game winning.. Fights normally take place at J4/5, shooting eachother at the F-line, the middle of the map around E4/5, campers  in bushes on 4 and 8 line.

 

From wotguru:

Just cause it normally happens doesn't mean that it's wrong to not use it and I'm pretty sure you haven't sat behind your brother watching all of his 50k games, you might have seen some of them, but I think you are overreacting a little bit. 
I mean if you watch my replay I posted, while we were winning, thanks to the fact that I was hiding in the bushes I made it so the enemy team couldn't push through which made it impossible for them to win cause they later got surrounded because of that.
In my few 6k games I've had this happen numerous times, I've both been in the bushes holding off enemies and gotten killed by having to push into the suicidal zone getting killed by tanks hiding in the bushes.

This bush, if it's used, can become a game-changer even if you have seen it or not. Of course not all players know or care about either being careful when approaching the bush or using it to their own gain but when used it can be what can turn a losing game into a win. You can fight multiple enemies, outnumbered while putting in shot after shot on your enemies while they can't do a single thing besides blind firing and hoping they hit you until they are literally in front of you.

It's foolish to think this bush in of nothing importance, a team that has to push and will push no matter what, they have no choice and you can just stay in the bushes preventing the enemy team from pushing and yolo you thanks to both the cover, the ditch and all the bushes which makes you invisible.



LethalWalou #8 Posted 05 January 2020 - 04:48 AM

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That bush and such positions are in the game so the defense for example can be ''layered'' if that's the right word. Since your team didn't bother to go to the south to the ''right'' HT brawling area you could use this position to defend the enemies and create an engagement where you were. If there wasn't this kind of positions, then losing that one designated position where teams fight on that flank would mean that the winning team could easily just waltz forwards and snowballing would be even more apparent than what the mechanics make it be now. This kind of positions help with battling against snowballing. You can choose, as you did, different points of engagement on the map so that every match is not the same old same old. This kind of positions are useful when you decide to go to a flank with no real help but you still want to defend that side.


Edited by LethalWalou, 05 January 2020 - 04:50 AM.


_Anarchistic_ #9 Posted 05 January 2020 - 07:15 AM

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better question

 

why is this pigs ear of a map still in the game

 

another better question

 

why is this pigs ear of a rework still in the game instead of just giving us the old map back

 

another better question

 

how can the developers make a poor map so much worse?  it seems impossible but they managed it somehow


Edited by _Anarchistic_, 05 January 2020 - 07:17 AM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #10 Posted 05 January 2020 - 07:25 AM

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So you had one, presumably good, game using that bush location. Good for you but that doesn't make it OP.

 

What are you actually going to do from that position other than cover one narrow angle while the enemy team take the rest of the entire map behind you? It's not a game winning position and for you to even have occupied that position the enemy team would have to give up that corner to you from the beginning because you certainly can't get there before the enemy team does in a KV2. 



fwhaatpiraat #11 Posted 05 January 2020 - 07:27 AM

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If you spawn west and camp in the south you only make it easier for the enemy team. From the east spawn you just go to the middle, take control over there and kill the enemy tanks going north. Then you go towards the base and eventually kill the campers for an easy gg.

Ratriq #12 Posted 05 January 2020 - 08:04 AM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 05 January 2020 - 06:25 AM, said:

So you had one, presumably good, game using that bush location. Good for you but that doesn't make it OP.

 

What are you actually going to do from that position other than cover one narrow angle while the enemy team take the rest of the entire map behind you? It's not a game winning position and for you to even have occupied that position the enemy team would have to give up that corner to you from the beginning because you certainly can't get there before the enemy team does in a KV2. 

I showed one good game to give you an idea, this "one" good game have happened plenty of times, I had managed to both kill a full hp enemy and dmg another enemy until they even spotted me. So I don't know with you but for me, it can be the thing that is the reason some people win/lose games, it doesn't happen often but it certainly happens. 
I've both hidden in this spot multiple times and destroyed tanks cluelessly rushing in and not even managing to spot me and getting destroyed by people hiding in these bushes.
 

View PostLethalWalou, on 05 January 2020 - 03:48 AM, said:

That bush and such positions are in the game so the defense for example can be ''layered'' if that's the right word. Since your team didn't bother to go to the south to the ''right'' HT brawling area you could use this position to defend the enemies and create an engagement where you were. If there wasn't this kind of positions, then losing that one designated position where teams fight on that flank would mean that the winning team could easily just waltz forwards and snowballing would be even more apparent than what the mechanics make it be now. This kind of positions help with battling against snowballing. You can choose, as you did, different points of engagement on the map so that every match is not the same old same old. This kind of positions are useful when you decide to go to a flank with no real help but you still want to defend that side.

If it is so helpful for the gameplay, what would happen if to example you manage to push your enemies out after 8 minutes of close fighting and only you and another tank survived but are on low HP. What are you supposed to do now? Rush in hoping for no one hiding in the bushes? In the time you fought either one enemy could have fallen back into the bush or one or several enemies could simply have wanted to help defend and moved location. 
Are you just supposed to give up on the flank you fought so hard on and allowing free entrance for the enemy team or are you just going to camp there waiting/hoping for some enemy thinking it's been abandoned or simply rush in hoping for the best?

For all you know there could be a Jagdpanzers E-100 hiding there and you'd die instantly, there could also be a Progetto loaded with 3 shells, there are so many things hiding there that could easily kill you in seconds.

Again, what are you supposed to do in a situation like this? Push, flee or just camp hoping for the enemy to come to you? I mean if they manage to push you out of the flank and you have to fall back, it's a completely different story, they'll be mostly protected by a bunch of building allowing cover when push it's not like both sides have this luxury defensive position either.



snowlywhite #13 Posted 05 January 2020 - 08:14 AM

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yeah, I also use it when there are few hts and I happen to play heavy. If the rest of the team is sensible enough not to push further. It's much easier to pretend you're the special team, let them push and farm them there. Instead of that boring corner which takes 3 years to be solved.

 

it's a check: east should rotate back mid instead of pushing that. When they don't(and in 90% of the time they don't)... you farm them.

 

it's the new 1.0 philosophy where they make on all maps another layer of defense to fall back to if you lose the "brawling" point on a given flank. But yeah, the position is op.

 

Otoh, given west is the losing spawn anyway... guess some help doesn't hurt. Mid is very heavily in favor of east while south is heavily in favor of west(even at the corner). Too bad mid is way more important than south, hence west being the losing spawn.



Mr_Burrows #14 Posted 05 January 2020 - 08:24 AM

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I think that spot remains because it is the only redeeming thing for the team spawning W. The E spawn has the incredibly forceful TD camp at their base that can fire almost unhindered at the flank of an advancing enemy force that has made it around the corner at J5, pushing into town. The W has no such covering support point other than that rock/bush combo. 

 

What really amazes me about that map is how much worse it became with HD, and why on earth E team never seems to utilize their TD position more to their advantage, taking up position in town rather than at the J5 corner. The enemy would have to drive into flanking fire to advance...

 



gunslingerXXX #15 Posted 05 January 2020 - 08:55 AM

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I'm quite sure the game will die soon if both teams decide to just stay in the base camping OP positions and wait for the other team to move. 

With decent teams to give away map control means you will lose. (I know I'm not a good player, thats not the argument here). However with the amount of stupid stuff going on lately basecamping seems a good way to win.... and ruin the game by doing so.



tajj7 #16 Posted 05 January 2020 - 11:39 AM

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There are lots of stupid bush positions like that, that look into heavy brawl areas but can't actually be spotted until proxy range. Two such bushes on Steppes on the 8 line are an example that make that flank completely useless (A8 and D0), another is on the other side of Steppes for the south team (J2). 

 

Redshire B8 is another, for the north team if South heavies win the brawl they just get farmed by that stupid position, as is B9 for the east spawn on Airfield, completely unbalances the heavy brawl area because east team can push around the outside but west team can't because of that stupid base camping spot.  

 

They just generally add to the stupidly easy camping positions that you never have to fight for that now litter the game, part of the general dumbing down of the game, meaning some completely terrible player gets to farm damage with zero effort and knowledge, camp base and have OP position that can barely be flanked.  Examples are B0 on Live Oaks, A5 and K5 on Cliff, The corners on Pilsen, most of Artic Regions bases, the stupid spots behind the bases on Steppes, A line and K lines on Erlenberg, 1 line corners on Fishermans bay, etc. etc. They are on almost every map, they usually have concealment, elevation, hard cover and are approached by open ground making them very hard if not near impossible to counter without basically have a big numbers advantage or HP advantage. Yet these players did literally nothing for some of the most powerful spots on the map and the further stupid thing is the supposed mechanic to draw campers out of hidey holes and actually force them to do something, capping, these spots often overlook the cap as well. 

 

If you look at who the top damage dealers often are on most teams, its base campers, people who do nothing but sit in positions they drive 50-100m from spawn and just sit in, but are far too powerful and just reward passive players who are too dumb to attack. 

 

Many maps are now the team who pushes first -> loses. 


Edited by tajj7, 05 January 2020 - 11:41 AM.


gunslingerXXX #17 Posted 05 January 2020 - 11:45 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 January 2020 - 11:39 AM, said:

There are lots of stupid bush positions like that, 

Agree. 

Maybe remove the actual positions from your post to not increase the problem?



LethalWalou #18 Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:18 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 January 2020 - 10:39 AM, said:

There are lots of stupid bush positions like that, that look into heavy brawl areas but can't actually be spotted until proxy range. Two such bushes on Steppes on the 8 line are an example that make that flank completely useless (A8 and D0), another is on the other side of Steppes for the south team (J2). 

 

Redshire B8 is another, for the north team if South heavies win the brawl they just get farmed by that stupid position, as is B9 for the east spawn on Airfield, completely unbalances the heavy brawl area because east team can push around the outside but west team can't because of that stupid base camping spot.  

 

The game needs the layered positions like this H3 bush on Fjords. It isn't even a position that you started ranting about. It doesn't overlook to a heavy brawling area. You can't go there from west spawn and support your heavies. It's either defensive or offensive location for the next section of that flank or a brawling area if the ''normal'' spot isn't used to brawl.

 

If you can't find a work around for these bushes and you think they are somehow OP, you still need to learn quite a bit. Only one I can agree with is the B9 bushes of Airfield so that west side can't push. But that still is just one option that gets taken away if there is someone at B9. Rest of these examples can be easily avoided and they combat the snowball effect.



LethalWalou #19 Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:32 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 05 January 2020 - 07:04 AM, said:

 

If it is so helpful for the gameplay, what would happen if to example you manage to push your enemies out after 8 minutes of close fighting and only you and another tank survived but are on low HP. What are you supposed to do now? Rush in hoping for no one hiding in the bushes? In the time you fought either one enemy could have fallen back into the bush or one or several enemies could simply have wanted to help defend and moved location. 
Are you just supposed to give up on the flank you fought so hard on and allowing free entrance for the enemy team or are you just going to camp there waiting/hoping for some enemy thinking it's been abandoned or simply rush in hoping for the best?

 

Why would you yolo push forwards with low hitpoints. And you can see what tanks have been spotted and who is left to see if someone actually just fell back to those bushes and created an ambush for you. Are you really asking how to deal with ambushes? Don't drive in them. If you win the ''normal'' brawling area, you are not forced by anyone to keep driving forwards on that flank. Make an estimation if it's safe, or test it by seeing if you get spotted, if you have a tank that can sidescrape for example. If you get the feeling that it's an ambush, then don't go and find another way. You have the buildings as cover to let you rotate if you are from east spawn.

 

The Frjords south peak isn't for example Mines hill. It's not something you have to hold. (And frankly, Mines hill isn't even always something you have to hold, you just have to make the enemies don't take it.) You go to the Fjords south position to clear it, kill the enemies and/or do more damage than they do to you. Not every flank and position is an important one to hold and you can give them away, as long as you understand what enemies can do with it. Fjords south is used for flanking the middle and west can push towards the east spawn through it.

 

Block Quote

 For all you know there could be a Jagdpanzers E-100 hiding there and you'd die instantly, there could also be a Progetto loaded with 3 shells, there are so many things hiding there that could easily kill you in seconds.

 

All this you can see from the team lists. There isn't going to be a random JPE100 there if one team doesn't have that tank. You can see where they have been spotted, keep an eye if they killed anyone. This is what knowledge of the game and situational awareness help you with.

 

Block Quote

 Again, what are you supposed to do in a situation like this? Push, flee or just camp hoping for the enemy to come to you? I mean if they manage to push you out of the flank and you have to fall back, it's a completely different story, they'll be mostly protected by a bunch of building allowing cover when push it's not like both sides have this luxury defensive position either.

 

Again, don't push blindly if you have no idea what is there. Look at the minimap and teamlists to see who is where and make a call. Too many people indeed push blindly and then they rage and call you hacker post game when you manage to ambush them and not get spotted because you know the mechanics and they don't. The amount of times I've created an ambush, shot the enemy from an obvious location, and they just sit there, or keep driving, not shooting back to that one and only bush or tree next to them, is just astonishing...

 


Edited by LethalWalou, 05 January 2020 - 12:35 PM.


BR33K1_PAWAH #20 Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:50 PM

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View PostLethalWalou, on 05 January 2020 - 02:18 PM, said:

 

The game needs the layered positions like this H3 bush on Fjords. It isn't even a position that you started ranting about. It doesn't overlook to a heavy brawling area. You can't go there from west spawn and support your heavies. It's either defensive or offensive location for the next section of that flank or a brawling area if the ''normal'' spot isn't used to brawl.

 

This :great:

 

View Posttajj7, on 05 January 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

 

 

As though i agree with your opinion on overall map thing, positions you're talking about are different from that bush that Ratriq brought up. Those positions used by campers from the start and they do make pushing a flank suicidal. But this particular bush is fall-back position on which you can try hold off enemy heavies when your heavy flank crumbles.

 

Also, the funny thing is that this atrocious map design is the way WG battles infamous roflstomps that we complained so much about.

Which kinda makes players themselves responsible for maps getting to this poor state.


Edited by BR33K1_PAWAH, 05 January 2020 - 12:51 PM.






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