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Kingdom of Romania - Tech Tree Suggestion


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Bulldog_Drummond #41 Posted 10 January 2020 - 01:34 AM

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View PostCatalin9732, on 10 January 2020 - 12:27 AM, said:

By all means, Sir
If you have something to say just say it.
This is not what being specific means, do you have or do you not have something to point out that wikipedia paragraph is wrong? If you do, point out where and how, if you don't, you probably know how useful a blank statement is.

 

"In English, the name of the country was formerly spelt Rumania or Roumania, Romania became the predominant spelling around 1975."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania

 

There - Not so hard, was it?



Catalin9732 #42 Posted 10 January 2020 - 01:46 AM

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View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 10 January 2020 - 12:34 AM, said:

"In English, the name of the country was formerly spelt Rumania or Roumania, Romania became the predominant spelling around 1975."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania

 

There - Not so hard, was it?

The paragraph is from the Etymology of Romania wikipedia page, rather than the simply Romania page, and there is no mention of that there, so reading the page more carefully or checking the references as you suggest would have solved nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Romania

Being more specific on the other hand seems to have solved this issue, was it hard?



Bulldog_Drummond #43 Posted 10 January 2020 - 01:52 AM

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View PostCatalin9732, on 10 January 2020 - 12:46 AM, said:

The paragraph is from the Etymology of Romania wikipedia page, rather than the simply Romania page, and there is no mention of that there, so reading the page more carefully or checking the references as you suggest would have solved nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Romania

Being more specific on the other hand seems to have solved this issue, was it hard?

 

I am delighted that we have found common ground on the fact that I was correct all along.

We can congratulate ourselves on a most productive day's work



Catalin9732 #44 Posted 10 January 2020 - 02:11 AM

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View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 10 January 2020 - 12:52 AM, said:

I am delighted that we have found common ground on the fact that I was correct all along.

We can congratulate ourselves on a most productive day's work

I am delighted that you have realised the value of explaining yourself properly but saddened that you need to use internet arguments to boost your ego.
As for myself, I'm glad I learned something new, but if you want to get all technical, you didn't prove your original statement yet.

You said that most people in the West used Rumania until fairly recently.
One wikipedia link says: "In English, the name of the country was formerly spelt Rumania or Roumania, Romania became the predominant spelling around 1975."

This means Rumania and Romania were used interchangebly until Romania became predominant around 1975. It doesn't say that Rumania was predominant before 1975.
The other wikipedia link says: Roumanie, then evolved into Rumania, but was eventually replaced after World War II by the name used officially: Romania.
Again, not pointing out that that Rumania was predominant before 1975, while the Diplomacy game is merely anecdotal evidence.



Pulptenks #45 Posted 10 January 2020 - 05:11 AM

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lol romania, nice joke

Gardar7 #46 Posted 10 January 2020 - 09:37 AM

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I support implementing new nations but I think there are more relevant and more original tech trees and suggestions for new nations which should have priority over Romania. 

Catalin9732 #47 Posted 10 January 2020 - 10:39 AM

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View PostGardar7, on 10 January 2020 - 08:37 AM, said:

I support implementing new nations but I think there are more relevant and more original tech trees and suggestions for new nations which should have priority over Romania. 

What are those other nations? We have the 7 major powers: England, USA, France, Italy, Germany, Japan and USSR. We have China. And in Europe we have Czechoslovakia, Poland and Sweden. The nations that have more tanks than Romania are already in the game.
Spanish tanks are also full of modifications of other tanks like Romania and I seriously doubt someone would consider adding Switzerland in a World War II game.



Gardar7 #48 Posted 10 January 2020 - 03:10 PM

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View PostCatalin9732, on 10 January 2020 - 07:39 AM, said:

What are those other nations? We have the 7 major powers: England, USA, France, Italy, Germany, Japan and USSR. We have China. And in Europe we have Czechoslovakia, Poland and Sweden. The nations that have more tanks than Romania are already in the game.
Spanish tanks are also full of modifications of other tanks like Romania and I seriously doubt someone would consider adding Switzerland in a World War II game.

 

Hungary had more types of tanks and more researches/prototypes than Romania for example. But I like the idea of Israel, Yugoslavia, India or some South/Middle American tree as well.  


Edited by Gardar7, 10 January 2020 - 03:12 PM.


Bulldog_Drummond #49 Posted 10 January 2020 - 07:28 PM

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View PostCatalin9732, on 10 January 2020 - 01:11 AM, said:

I am delighted that you have realised the value of explaining yourself properly but saddened that you need to use internet arguments to boost your ego.
As for myself, I'm glad I learned something new, but if you want to get all technical, you didn't prove your original statement yet.

You said that most people in the West used Rumania until fairly recently.
One wikipedia link says: "In English, the name of the country was formerly spelt Rumania or Roumania, Romania became the predominant spelling around 1975."

This means Rumania and Romania were used interchangebly until Romania became predominant around 1975. It doesn't say that Rumania was predominant before 1975.
The other wikipedia link says: Roumanie, then evolved into Rumania, but was eventually replaced after World War II by the name used officially: Romania.
Again, not pointing out that that Rumania was predominant before 1975, while the Diplomacy game is merely anecdotal evidence.

 

You will find an extract at the link below from Margaret MacMillan's excellent history 'Peacemaers', which covers the Paris Peace Conference of 1919.  The book was published in 2003 but as you can see from the extract refers throughout to Rumania, not Romania.  A Commission was set up - The Commission on Rumanian and Yugoslav Affairs

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VSx37W6OtOUC&pg=PT295&lpg=PT295&dq=margaret+macmillan+peacemakers+rumania&source=bl&ots=nRMuv__oGP&sig=ACfU3U0TpCtPD9lRhDdCvG7m3WT-HdhLYQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnnoOp0fnmAhXORBUIHSYeALI4ChDoATABegQIChAB#v=onepage&q=margaret%20macmillan%20peacemakers%20rumania&f=false

 

I don't recall any references in English language literature or history to Romania until relatively recently, or anyone using that version on the rare occasions when it came up in conversation.  Certainly the new spelling looked very odd to me when I first came across it in newspapers.  Mind you, I still talk of Bombay, Peking, Burma and Ceylon, etc, seeing no point in the new and unhelpful invented names for these places.

 

I am not even sure that I understand why you think that the point is of any importance.

 


Edited by Bulldog_Drummond, 10 January 2020 - 07:34 PM.


Catalin9732 #50 Posted 11 January 2020 - 10:53 AM

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@Gardar7 I don't think Hungary has more tanks and prototypes than Romania. It has the Turdi tanks which are a modification of the Czechoslovak Skoda T-21 tanks like the Romanian R-3 tank. The Turan tanks which are a heavy tank upgrade of the Turdi. The V-4 light tank prototype and the Zrinky which are Turan with anti-tanks. But apart from that, Hungary used unmodified versions of foreign tanks, especially Panzers. You could argue that apart from Vânătorul de Care R-35, Maresal and TACAM lines, the Romanian tanks are also modified versions of already existing tanks, but they are heavy modifications and a lot more than what Hungary has.

 

Yugoslavia has a lot of interesting tanks though. Israel I think would be beyond the scope of the game as they didn't exist as a nation before 1947. I don't know much about Indian or South/Middle American tanks.

 

@Bulldog_Drummond This is again anecdotal evidence and from 1919, I could also point out how Churchill used "Romania" in his memories, but it will not prove that the Romania version was predominant.

 

I don't, just curiosity.


Edited by Catalin9732, 11 January 2020 - 11:00 AM.


Bulldog_Drummond #51 Posted 11 January 2020 - 01:41 PM

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View PostCatalin9732, on 11 January 2020 - 09:53 AM, said:

 

@Bulldog_Drummond This is again anecdotal evidence and from 1919, I could also point out how Churchill used "Romania" in his memories, but it will not prove that the Romania version was predominant.

 

 

I think we can agree that both versions were used.

In his handwritten 1944 note when meeting Stalin to discuss how the Balkans would be divided, Churchill spelled it "Roumania", which in English would be pronounced Rumania.

 

'Naughty document:' This 1944 scrap of paper shows Winston Churchill's secret pact with Josef Stalin to carve up post-war Europe between Russia and the Western allies


Edited by Bulldog_Drummond, 11 January 2020 - 01:42 PM.


Galladog #52 Posted 11 January 2020 - 03:15 PM

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In British, in my early 50's and at geography lessons in school we were taught Rumania.

Bulldog_Drummond #53 Posted 11 January 2020 - 03:43 PM

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View PostGalladog, on 11 January 2020 - 02:15 PM, said:

In British, in my early 50's and at geography lessons in school we were taught Rumania.

 

I think that part of it might be that Romania just sounds wrong in English pronunciation.  We have Bulgaria and Hungary - Bolgaria and Hongary would sound odd.

Also it makes the place sound as though it is inhabited by the Roma, which I suppose to an extent it is, whereas in the good old days it was seen as the France of the Balkans.



Frostilicus #54 Posted 11 January 2020 - 05:17 PM

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You there, Mr Drumond - I'd like to send this letter to the Prussian Consulate in Siam by aeromail. Am I too late for the 16:30 auto-gyro?

 

:hiding:

 



Bulldog_Drummond #55 Posted 11 January 2020 - 05:52 PM

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View PostFrostilicus, on 11 January 2020 - 04:17 PM, said:

You there, Mr Drumond - I'd like to send this letter to the Prussian Consulate in Siam by aeromail. Am I too late for the 16:30 auto-gyro?

 

:hiding:

 

 

There is a flying boat going there via Persia and German East Africa.

If you rush you might make it

The funny thing about these stupid new names is that educated Indians and Chinese themselves talk of Bombay and Peking and regard the new names as a joke.

And I have colleagues who are Persian emigrees who would be very upset if you called them Iranians

 

Image result for flying boat ad


Edited by Bulldog_Drummond, 11 January 2020 - 06:54 PM.


MeNoobTank #56 Posted 11 January 2020 - 07:05 PM

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View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 11 January 2020 - 03:43 PM, said:

 

I think that part of it might be that Romania just sounds wrong in English pronunciation.  We have Bulgaria and Hungary - Bolgaria and Hongary would sound odd.

Also it makes the place sound as though it is inhabited by the Roma, which I suppose to an extent it is, whereas in the good old days it was seen as the France of the Balkans.

 

I understand now. But what about places like Croatia or Slovenia, do they sound odd or sound better as Cruatia or Sluvenia ?

 

Edit: Also the abbreviation is RO, if it was Rumania then it had the same abbreviation as Russia (RU) and there would have been alot of confusion.

The name came from Roman Empire so if you say Ruman Empire then yeah, Rumania sounds about right :D


Edited by MeNoobTank, 11 January 2020 - 07:10 PM.


Bulldog_Drummond #57 Posted 11 January 2020 - 07:37 PM

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View PostMeNoobTank, on 11 January 2020 - 06:05 PM, said:

 

I understand now. But what about places like Croatia or Slovenia, do they sound odd or sound better as Cruatia or Sluvenia ?

 

Edit: Also the abbreviation is RO, if it was Rumania then it had the same abbreviation as Russia (RU) and there would have been alot of confusion.

The name came from Roman Empire so if you say Ruman Empire then yeah, Rumania sounds about right :D

 

No those names are all fine

I can't exactly put my finger on why it is but Romania sounds all wrong in English.

I think it could be the middle A.  Roman and Roma are fine but as soon as you add the IA it all goes askew.  Rumania is a far more natural pronunciation.

Note that Wiki says: most languages continue to prefer forms with u, e.g. French Roumanie, German and Swedish Rumänien, Spanish Rumania (the archaic form Rumanía is still in use in Spain), Polish Rumunia, Russian Румыния (Rumyniya), and Japanese ルーマニア (Rūmania).

 



MeNoobTank #58 Posted 11 January 2020 - 10:08 PM

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View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 11 January 2020 - 07:37 PM, said:

 

No those names are all fine

I can't exactly put my finger on why it is but Romania sounds all wrong in English.

I think it could be the middle A.  Roman and Roma are fine but as soon as you add the IA it all goes askew.  Rumania is a far more natural pronunciation.

Note that Wiki says: most languages continue to prefer forms with u, e.g. French Roumanie, German and Swedish Rumänien, Spanish Rumania (the archaic form Rumanía is still in use in Spain), Polish Rumunia, Russian Румыния (Rumyniya), and Japanese ルーマニア (Rūmania).

 

 

Yeah, I think it is because we spell it not with A but with  and that is a totally different sound but it is a sound that foreigners cannot pronounce so they preffer to use A or as you said U that are more convenient.. In romanian the name is România. :)



Bulldog_Drummond #59 Posted 11 January 2020 - 10:27 PM

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View PostMeNoobTank, on 11 January 2020 - 09:08 PM, said:

 

Yeah, I think it is because we spell it not with A but with  and that is a totally different sound but it is a sound that foreigners cannot pronounce so they preffer to use A or as you said U that are more convenient.. In romanian the name is România. :)

 

I wouldn't even attempt to pronounce a Rumanian circumflex.

One of the simple joys of English is that we have neither accents (except class ones) nor word genders

We do have ridiculous pronunciations designed to trip up foreigners, like Belvoir Castle, Conduit Street, Beauchamp Place, Mr Cholmondeley, etc

When I was doing Latin it was a mystery why sailors were female, similarly in French some cars were female and others masculine, depending on whether they were autos or voitures.  French also had those wretched cedilla things.



Catalin9732 #60 Posted 13 January 2020 - 02:45 PM

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View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 11 January 2020 - 12:41 PM, said:

I think we can agree that both versions were used.

In his handwritten 1944 note when meeting Stalin to discuss how the Balkans would be divided, Churchill spelled it "Roumania", which in English would be pronounced Rumania.

Yes, we can agree on that. I think MeNoobTank points out exactly why the Rumania version existed, the Romanians used â instead of a. România is a lot smoother to pronounce than Romania. Wikipedia says it sounds like /ɨ/ close central unrounded vowel and in international phonetic alphabet is known as barrel i, which is similar to the the way you pronounce "oo" when saying "good" except it's with "i" instead of "u".

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kf38DDGB_g

 

I also find it weird that languages, including my own, have genders for objects. Languages are full of "imprefections" so to speak because most were developed not like a project but were used by people throughout the ages and the most commonly used versions stuck. Which is why French has 420 for 80 and "qu'est-ce que c'est" for "what is it", fat chance and slim chance is the same thing in English while naked and baked are pronounced differently.






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