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top tier EBR base spot too high, breaks wheeled canon


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jaxx77 #1 Posted 07 January 2020 - 04:20 PM

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While tier 6-8 wheeled vehicles have indeed low spot range, they gain about 10m every 2 tiers, tier 9 and 10 gain it rapidly 20m per tier. That gives top of the tree EBR 350 base spot which is not that low, and not that big disadvantage to offset with skills and equipment while gaining all the benefits of that vehicle type.

That makes top tier EBR too powerful.

 

if tier 7-8 have 310 spot then tier 9-10 should have 320.


Edited by jaxx77, 07 January 2020 - 04:34 PM.


tajj7 #2 Posted 07 January 2020 - 04:31 PM

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350 base is literally the lowest view range on tier 10, everything else pretty much has 390 or 400, some have 410 and 420.

 

It's the same base view range as an IS-3, which is blind on tier 8, let alone tier 10. 



Ceeb #3 Posted 07 January 2020 - 04:39 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 07 January 2020 - 03:31 PM, said:

350 base is literally the lowest view range on tier 10, everything else pretty much has 390 or 400, some have 410 and 420.

 

It's the same base view range as an IS-3, which is blind on tier 8, let alone tier 10. 

 

An IS3 doesnt zip around the map, its not desiged to be a scout.

 

But the base is the problem, it should be a lot lower for the WVs, lower than what it is,  Normal lights should have high Base and high configured viewrange.

 

350 plus skills, plus optics etc etc (I haven't researched this) can put it well above 450+, and that is too high for these tanks.



tajj7 #4 Posted 07 January 2020 - 05:00 PM

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View PostCeeb, on 07 January 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:

 

An IS3 doesnt zip around the map, its not desiged to be a scout.

 

But the base is the problem, it should be a lot lower for the WVs, lower than what it is,  Normal lights should have high Base and high configured viewrange.

 

350 plus skills, plus optics etc etc (I haven't researched this) can put it well above 450+, and that is too high for these tanks.

 

If you can get 450 on the EBR than other tanks can get 520, equipment applies to all tanks. 



GodTank2 #5 Posted 07 January 2020 - 06:05 PM

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View PostCeeb, on 07 January 2020 - 04:39 PM, said:

 

An IS3 doesnt zip around the map, its not desiged to be a scout.

 

But the base is the problem, it should be a lot lower for the WVs, lower than what it is,  Normal lights should have high Base and high configured viewrange.

 

350 plus skills, plus optics etc etc (I haven't researched this) can put it well above 450+, and that is too high for these tanks.

 

In order to get 450+ you need improved coated optics , improved vents , food , all view range crew skills , BiA and a directive for view range. All that for 450 view range. If i put all those on lets say T-100 LT i get well above 500 meters view range.

So you can only break max view range if you literally have the tank maxed out. Everyone at tier 10, even heavy tanks has 445+ view range.



mrtvimarijan #6 Posted 07 January 2020 - 06:24 PM

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Tier X view range is oversaturated in general (a lot of tanks having 490+ m view range with good crews), and it makes the gameplay a lot more static and boring.

FatigueGalaxy #7 Posted 07 January 2020 - 07:02 PM

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How to fix EBRs and imo make them more fair:

- you are unable to fix wheels while moving. This means there is more risk if you drive aggressively with repair kit on cooldown and adds a meaning to shooting wheels since it makes EBRs an easier target and puts them out of action for a while because they have to play safe until they can use repair kit again.

 

- remove high penetration HE and as compensation give them similar penetration to other LTs. EBRs are supposed to have less firepower than standard light tanks but this is only true when they are firing AP/APCR/HEAT. Against paper tanks they have the same of better firepower than LTs but with even better gun handling and aiming time. EBRs are supposed to be a counter to slower tanks, TDs, arty while light tanks were supposed to counter EBRs with their increased vision, firepower and hitpoints. This doesn't happen because EBRs counter light tanks with their HE and extreme gun handling.

 

I'm only at tier 7 and I didn't play it much but I have nearly 3k DPM with HE - what standard light tanks can do to me when they have 1/3 less firepower? I pen them with HE maybe 8 out 10 times while they have less than 50% chance to pen me with HE because I have 40 mm of armour and HE on 75/76/85 mm guns barely have enough penetration to pen 40 mm. And once I get rid of enemy light tank, nothing can keep up with me at tier 7 - the battle is my playfield. If I die it's my mistake, bad luck or RNG.

Tbh, most light tanks are obsolete at this point with increasing number of EBRs in each battle. You either play EBR yourself or you play soviet LTs because only those have a chance with EBRs firing HE.

 



GodTank2 #8 Posted 07 January 2020 - 07:15 PM

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View PostFatigueGalaxy, on 07 January 2020 - 07:02 PM, said:

How to fix EBRs and imo make them more fair:

- you are unable to fix wheels while moving. This means there is more risk if you drive aggressively with repair kit on cooldown and adds a meaning to shooting wheels since it makes EBRs an easier target and puts them out of action for a while because they have to play safe until they can use repair kit again.

 

- remove high penetration HE and as compensation give them similar penetration to other LTs. EBRs are supposed to have less firepower than standard light tanks but this is only true when they are firing AP/APCR/HEAT. Against paper tanks they have the same of better firepower than LTs but with even better gun handling and aiming time. EBRs are supposed to be a counter to slower tanks, TDs, arty while light tanks were supposed to counter EBRs with their increased vision, firepower and hitpoints. This doesn't happen because EBRs counter light tanks with their HE and extreme gun handling.

 

I'm only at tier 7 and I didn't play it much but I have nearly 3k DPM with HE - what standard light tanks can do to me when they have 1/3 less firepower? I pen them with HE maybe 8 out 10 times while they have less than 50% chance to pen me with HE because I have 40 mm of armour and HE on 75/76/85 mm guns barely have enough penetration to pen 40 mm. And once I get rid of enemy light tank, nothing can keep up with me at tier 7 - the battle is my playfield. If I die it's my mistake, bad luck or RNG.

Tbh, most light tanks are obsolete at this point with increasing number of EBRs in each battle. You either play EBR yourself or you play soviet LTs because only those have a chance with EBRs firing HE.

 

 

The Sheridan has 3.5k dpm with the derp gun , does that mean its broken?

Lets see what light tanks you can pen with the EBR 105 HE.

AMX 13 105 = Pen unless you hit the tracks

Manticore = Pen unless you hit the tracks

Rheinmetall = Pen unless you hit the tracks

T-100 LT =  You cant even pen this with APCR rounds let alone HE

WZ-132-1= Pen unless you hit turret

Sheridan = Pen unless you hit the spaced armor which is everywhere around the tank



WindSplitter1 #9 Posted 07 January 2020 - 10:30 PM

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View PostCeeb, on 07 January 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:

 

An IS3 doesnt zip around the map, its not desiged to be a scout.

 

But the base is the problem, it should be a lot lower for the WVs, lower than what it is,  Normal lights should have high Base and high configured viewrange.

 

350 plus skills, plus optics etc etc (I haven't researched this) can put it well above 450+, and that is too high for these tanks.

 

~400m is also too high of a view range for Heavy Tanks, which are not required to scout, and yet there HTs with such view range.

One would question why, since most of them fight within 250m...



Thlurp #10 Posted 08 January 2020 - 07:57 AM

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OP hasnt even played t9 not even talking about t10 but he still manages to complain about t10.
hasnt played a light tank above t5

 

check my stats, i played ebr at t10 and i just suck at it. It is far from OP



tajj7 #11 Posted 08 January 2020 - 10:31 AM

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View PostFatigueGalaxy, on 07 January 2020 - 06:02 PM, said:

How to fix EBRs and imo make them more fair:

- you are unable to fix wheels while moving. This means there is more risk if you drive aggressively with repair kit on cooldown and adds a meaning to shooting wheels since it makes EBRs an easier target and puts them out of action for a while because they have to play safe until they can use repair kit again.

 

- remove high penetration HE and as compensation give them similar penetration to other LTs. EBRs are supposed to have less firepower than standard light tanks but this is only true when they are firing AP/APCR/HEAT. Against paper tanks they have the same of better firepower than LTs but with even better gun handling and aiming time. EBRs are supposed to be a counter to slower tanks, TDs, arty while light tanks were supposed to counter EBRs with their increased vision, firepower and hitpoints. This doesn't happen because EBRs counter light tanks with their HE and extreme gun handling.

 

I'm only at tier 7 and I didn't play it much but I have nearly 3k DPM with HE - what standard light tanks can do to me when they have 1/3 less firepower? I pen them with HE maybe 8 out 10 times while they have less than 50% chance to pen me with HE because I have 40 mm of armour and HE on 75/76/85 mm guns barely have enough penetration to pen 40 mm. And once I get rid of enemy light tank, nothing can keep up with me at tier 7 - the battle is my playfield. If I die it's my mistake, bad luck or RNG.

Tbh, most light tanks are obsolete at this point with increasing number of EBRs in each battle. You either play EBR yourself or you play soviet LTs because only those have a chance with EBRs firing HE.

 

 

The problem with light tanks is not WVs. The problem with light tanks is the 9.18 (IIRC) rebalance of them was bad, it made them too weak, especially at higher tiers.

 

This is the WR curve of the AMX 13-105, probably a middling tier 10 light, not the best, not the worst -

 

Posted Image

 

One curve is from 2018, one is from 2019, basically that is the performance of the 13-150 pre WVs and post WVs, there is very little difference.

 

WVs don't need changing (if anything the tech tree ones below the tier 10 need buffs).

 

What needs changing is the tier 8-10 lights, they need buffs, they are not very good and have not been very good for a long time. 

 

(also all lights have HE as well, several of them have high pen HE, but you don't need high pen HE to pen WVs as they are all paper, they have at best 40mm of armour which means lights can use HE back at WVs, but really lights shouldn't be driving around in the open having fights on the move against WVs)

 



Cobra6 #12 Posted 08 January 2020 - 11:14 AM

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View Postmrtvimarijan, on 07 January 2020 - 05:24 PM, said:

Tier X view range is oversaturated in general (a lot of tanks having 490+ m view range with good crews), and it makes the gameplay a lot more static and boring.

 

It's one of the reasons why the sweet spot for light tanks is on Tier 7, at that tier your view range and camo do actually make a huge difference.

The higher you get in the tiers, the less your view range actually matters since most tanks are at view range cap anyway.

 

Cobra 6



tajj7 #13 Posted 08 January 2020 - 11:21 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 08 January 2020 - 10:14 AM, said:

 

It's one of the reasons why the sweet spot for light tanks is on Tier 7, at that tier your view range and camo do actually make a huge difference.

The higher you get in the tiers, the less your view range actually matters since most tanks are at view range cap anyway.

 

Cobra 6

 

They also have guns pretty much comparable to tier 7 mediums, the higher you go, the worse light tank firepower becomes compared to it's tier, with bad DPM, bad accuracy, bad penetration and often still low alpha. 

 

I mean the SP1C is not a great tank but it still has 220 alpha and 158mm of penetration, that is comporable or even better than tier 7 meds, it;s accuracy is ok as well.  DPM is quite bad, but then it does have higher alpha than several tier 7 meds. 

 

But move to tier 9 and the RU251 and it's using 240 alpha when tier 9 mediums all have 390 or 320, it barely has 2k DPM when tier 9 meds with higher alpha, have like 2.5k +, and it has 215mm of penetration when most tier 9 meds have 240-250 plus. 



SIPU #14 Posted 08 January 2020 - 11:26 AM

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Yesterday when I checked EBR has current highest winrate among non-premium tier 10 vehicles so some kind of adjustments are likely needed.

Cobra6 #15 Posted 08 January 2020 - 11:50 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 08 January 2020 - 10:21 AM, said:

 

They also have guns pretty much comparable to tier 7 mediums, the higher you go, the worse light tank firepower becomes compared to it's tier, with bad DPM, bad accuracy, bad penetration and often still low alpha. 

 

I mean the SP1C is not a great tank but it still has 220 alpha and 158mm of penetration, that is comporable or even better than tier 7 meds, it;s accuracy is ok as well.  DPM is quite bad, but then it does have higher alpha than several tier 7 meds. 

 

But move to tier 9 and the RU251 and it's using 240 alpha when tier 9 mediums all have 390 or 320, it barely has 2k DPM when tier 9 meds with higher alpha, have like 2.5k +, and it has 215mm of penetration when most tier 9 meds have 240-250 plus. 


That as well indeed, lights become progressively more handicapped in all areas the further you move up the tiers.

 

But with good view range and camo (at tier 7) you can also get a lot closer without being spotted so your penetration drop-off starts to matter less.

At tier 9/10 you will have to keep quite some distance or you'll get spotted which only further exasperates the problem of the relatively low penetration.

 

Cobra 6



NUKLEAR_SLUG #16 Posted 08 January 2020 - 11:51 AM

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View PostSIPU, on 08 January 2020 - 11:26 AM, said:

Yesterday when I checked EBR has current highest winrate among non-premium tier 10 vehicles so some kind of adjustments are likely needed.

 

Something has to be top, that doesn't mean it needs fixing unless it's massively overperforming compared to everything else.



FatigueGalaxy #17 Posted 08 January 2020 - 08:22 PM

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View PostGodTank2, on 07 January 2020 - 07:15 PM, said:

 

The Sheridan has 3.5k dpm with the derp gun , does that mean its broken?

No, because it doesn't have 0.34 accuracy, ~1 s aiming time and the best gun handling in the game... That's the problem - EBR has ~500 DPM less and ~400 less alpha but it's not a derp gun. 152 mm derp is just bad compared to EBR's 105 mm gun firing HE.

View Posttajj7, on 08 January 2020 - 10:31 AM, said:

 

The problem with light tanks is not WVs. The problem with light tanks is the 9.18 (IIRC) rebalance of them was bad, it made them too weak, especially at higher tiers.

 

WVs don't need changing (if anything the tech tree ones below the tier 10 need buffs).

 

What needs changing is the tier 8-10 lights, they need buffs, they are not very good and have not been very good for a long time. 

 

(also all lights have HE as well, several of them have high pen HE, but you don't need high pen HE to pen WVs as they are all paper, they have at best 40mm of armour which means lights can use HE back at WVs, but really lights shouldn't be driving around in the open having fights on the move against WVs)

 


I agree that tier 10 LTs are not in a good situation, similar to tier 8 LTs. Tier 9s could use some adjustments but I think they are good enough because they still outclass mediums when it comes to mobility and view range (tier 10s - not so much and firepower gap is even bigger).

From my point of view, WVs were intended to be countered by standard light tanks because they can outspot them and have more firepower. But this doesn't happen because WVs wreck light tanks (except soviet ones) with HE and after LTs are dead, WVs can do whatever they want.

 

Sure, LTs have HE but good luck penetrating EBRs reliably with 38-50 mm of pen. Front plate (the biggest part) is actually 70-80 mm of armour against HE, LFP is small, sides are covered by wheels. Your best bet is a turret shot but even then your HE can be absorbed by their gun. And have fun trying to hit them with your slow HE and 0.40+ accuracy when they drive around at 70 kph+. Even RU 251 can bounce its HE with low pen roll while EBR 90 will pen RU every time.

I'm not talking about driving in the open chasing down WVs in your LT. You can sit in a bush or work the ridge and EBR will just drive up to you, deliver HE shell and run away or get you when you are busy with something else because extreme mobility allows WVs to respond to that kind of situation.

 

That's why IMO WVs counter (most) light tanks while it should be the other way around. You can't have a good game in your LT until enemy WVs are killed because you can't reach good positions since they are too risky with WVs driving around.



Spurtung #18 Posted 09 January 2020 - 04:59 AM

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View PostCeeb, on 07 January 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:

350 plus skills, plus optics etc etc (I haven't researched this) can put it well above 450+, and that is too high for these tanks.

 

In this case, "well above" turns out to be 20m.

470m is the most it will go, and that's with fully trained crew using improved optics, improved vents, food and optics directive.

 

I literally have more than that on the VK 100.01 (P), a tier 8 HT, with only scouting skills, BiA and optics, and no vents. Were I to make it undergo the same "treatment", its viewrange would go up to 538m (or even 585m with binocs, which the EBR can't mount).

 

Let that sink in.



tajj7 #19 Posted 09 January 2020 - 10:37 AM

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View PostFatigueGalaxy, on 08 January 2020 - 07:22 PM, said:

No, because it doesn't have 0.34 accuracy, ~1 s aiming time and the best gun handling in the game... That's the problem - EBR has ~500 DPM less and ~400 less alpha but it's not a derp gun. 152 mm derp is just bad compared to EBR's 105 mm gun firing HE.


I agree that tier 10 LTs are not in a good situation, similar to tier 8 LTs. Tier 9s could use some adjustments but I think they are good enough because they still outclass mediums when it comes to mobility and view range (tier 10s - not so much and firepower gap is even bigger).

From my point of view, WVs were intended to be countered by standard light tanks because they can outspot them and have more firepower. But this doesn't happen because WVs wreck light tanks (except soviet ones) with HE and after LTs are dead, WVs can do whatever they want.

 

Sure, LTs have HE but good luck penetrating EBRs reliably with 38-50 mm of pen. Front plate (the biggest part) is actually 70-80 mm of armour against HE, LFP is small, sides are covered by wheels. Your best bet is a turret shot but even then your HE can be absorbed by their gun. And have fun trying to hit them with your slow HE and 0.40+ accuracy when they drive around at 70 kph+. Even RU 251 can bounce its HE with low pen roll while EBR 90 will pen RU every time.

I'm not talking about driving in the open chasing down WVs in your LT. You can sit in a bush or work the ridge and EBR will just drive up to you, deliver HE shell and run away or get you when you are busy with something else because extreme mobility allows WVs to respond to that kind of situation.

 

That's why IMO WVs counter (most) light tanks while it should be the other way around. You can't have a good game in your LT until enemy WVs are killed because you can't reach good positions since they are too risky with WVs driving around.

 

I don't think lights were supposed to counter WVs or vice versa, and nor do they really, lights are pretty decent at dealing with WVs from my experience, you just need to keep them at arm's length, if one drives right up to you to hit you with HE and pen reliably, then you have done something wrong.  If you are using bushes and terrain then you keep them lit up for a long time, they will take hits and die or have to fall back, you can also add your shot from cover. 

 

I'd say basically WG decided normal lights best at passive spotting, WV best as active spotting. 

 

Also the only two tier 10 lights that the EBR 105 will reliably pen is the Rhm and AMX 13-105, the T-100 lt has too much armour unless you get a flush side shot, the Sheridan is plastered in spaced armour and the WZ has a decent turret that the EBR won't even pen with APCR. Which leaves the 13-105 which has a clip of 1170 damage, so it can pump that into an EBR that gets too close and the other is the terrible Rhm, which no one should play ever anyway and thus I have no sympathy for, but also has it's own high pen HE round as well, and has about a 2-3s better reload than the EBR so will be able to trade two HE shots for one, which is 840 damage to 510 damage, and the Rhm has 300 more hit points to use as well.

 

So really I am not seeing it as a problem unless the tier 10 light is driving around in the open doing auto-aim fights, if the EBR is driving around in the open and yolos the light tank with HE, and the light tank is using terrain, a bit of distance and concealment, it should easily win the trade, getting the first shot off (because it outspots the WV) then making it a hard shot in return if its peaking from cover or terrain and then even if does hit, the Sheridan, T-100, WZ it probably won't pen, and the other two can fight back with a clip or HE of their own. 

 

Plus at the whole time the WV is lit up in the open for your team and will be taking damage most of the time unless your team is terrible and if your team is terrible then you are going to have a bad game in a tier 10 light anyway because your vehicle is weak and relies on the team to do well. 

 

 

View PostSpurtung, on 09 January 2020 - 03:59 AM, said:

 

In this case, "well above" turns out to be 20m.

470m is the most it will go, and that's with fully trained crew using improved optics, improved vents, food and optics directive.

 

I literally have more than that on the VK 100.01 (P), a tier 8 HT, with only scouting skills, BiA and optics, and no vents. Were I to make it undergo the same "treatment", its viewrange would go up to 538m (or even 585m with binocs, which the EBR can't mount).

 

Let that sink in.

 

The binos is a good point that is often overlooked, if people want to max out their passive spotting ability they can get some absurd view ranges on the tier 10 lights. 


Edited by tajj7, 09 January 2020 - 10:38 AM.





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