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Improving British Light Tanks

Light tanks Buffs Manticore British Tanks

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Poll: Options (56 members have cast votes)

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Which area would you buff

  1. Gun dispersion soft stats. (12 votes [9.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.30%

  2. View range. (19 votes [14.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.73%

  3. Terrain resistance. (9 votes [6.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.98%

  4. Ammo count. (34 votes [26.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.36%

  5. Gun alpha (more damage per shot). (26 votes [20.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.16%

  6. DPM (Same damage but faster re-load). (29 votes [22.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.48%

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DangerMouse #1 Posted 08 January 2020 - 02:38 PM

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So played through to the Manticore and actually quite enjoyed the line, but they do feel like they need some love to bring them up to the level of some of the other light tanks.

 

Other than what I have thought of is there something else that you feel they need?

 

Spoiler

 



Cobra6 #2 Posted 08 January 2020 - 03:00 PM

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More DPM, when I play mine I have the same issue as I have with the EVEN90, at critical points in the match you are always reloading because the DPM is low. The rest seems fine so far.

 

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LethalWalou #3 Posted 08 January 2020 - 03:20 PM

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Well I voted for ammo count, even though they are capable with the current amount already. Another thing would be slightly more camo. Manticore sure has best camo but slightly more wouldn't hurt to make it that tiny bit better than others. The UK LTs are perfoming at balanced or very close to balanced state so if they were to get buffed in some way, I think they should lose something for it. Not sure what though. Or they could lose that slight camo advantage in order to get ammo count and gun handling buff.

 

Most importantly though, other tier 10 tracked LTs, and some tier 9s would need buffs or rebalancing more urgently. UK LTs indeed are in a balanced state so why should they get the first pick to buffs/rebalancing...?

 

E: before someone jumps on it again: The balanced state is not some opinion, it's a fact. No matter how much people complain that they feel they are bad or underpowered, the statistics speak the truth.


Edited by LethalWalou, 08 January 2020 - 03:23 PM.


DaddysLittlePrincess #4 Posted 08 January 2020 - 03:25 PM

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They were advertised as light tanks with big alpha and high penetration, so I'd say make them that way.

- higher alpha (but with the same rld time, so DPM goes higher as well) (420-440 for Manticore)

- higher "special ammo" pen (300-310)

- better accuracy (0.34)

Basically LT/TD hybrid which would be unique.



DangerMouse #5 Posted 08 January 2020 - 03:37 PM

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Not sure limited ammo should ever be used as a balancing factor.

Geno1isme #6 Posted 08 January 2020 - 03:44 PM

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Mainly minor buffs to ammo count and DPM, in general alpha should also be increased but that's a bit tricky with the brits in general having low alpha.

 

Setter: tricky as the Brits all have low alpha in the mid tiers, and it already has higher penetration than the BP. But at least increase the ammo capacity to over 7k damage potential.

LHMTV: gun is mostly fine, just improve the reload to like 8.5s and ammo capacity to 8k potential damage.

GSOR: should get at least 280 alpha like the Challenger (more like 320, but there is no british gun with such alpha) and ammo capacity to 9k potential damage.

Manticore: could get 420 alpha like the Leo 1 and better gun elevation. If necessary nerf the reload to like 15s.

 

Also just like other brits they should have high-penetration HE rounds (they can take them from the French Wheelies ...)



vasilinhorulezz #7 Posted 08 January 2020 - 03:51 PM

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View PostDangerMouse, on 08 January 2020 - 02:38 PM, said:

So played through to the Manticore and actually quite enjoyed the line, but they do feel like they need some love to bring them up to the level of some of the other light tanks.

 

Other than what I have thought of is there something else that you feel they need?

 

Spoiler

 


Fix the title to "Improve all light tanks" and we're OK.



tajj7 #8 Posted 08 January 2020 - 03:58 PM

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Alpha, pen, view range and ammo count.

 

I'd make them like WG said they were supposed to be, high camo/high view range lights, that are bad at firing on the move, have bad DPM, fast in a straight line but not very agile. That then have high pen and high alpha guns. 

 

For example give the Manticore it's APCR round as a standard round, 300 pen HEAT, 450 alpha, same reload, 420m view range, a high pen HE round and some more ammo.

 

Maybe some more gun elevation as well as that seems unnecessarily awkward. 

 

The you'd have a light tank that was good at long range one off shots, passive scouting, but bad at active scouting, circling and any close range fighting dogfighting. 


Edited by tajj7, 08 January 2020 - 04:07 PM.


DangerMouse #9 Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:05 PM

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I was hoping for a WV counter with something like the 30mm Rarden Autocannon a bit like a high tier Luchs :)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RARDEN

 

 



AngelofAwe #10 Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:11 PM

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View PostLethalWalou, on 08 January 2020 - 04:20 PM, said:

E: before someone jumps on it again: The balanced state is not some opinion, it's a fact. No matter how much people complain that they feel they are bad or underpowered, the statistics speak the truth.


Which statistics?

To be completely transparent here, I have not played the British LTs and I won't because they look like the absolute worst garbage in this entire game. And that's in competition with things like the Sturer Emil and AMX 65t.
I would like to play them as I love LTs and MTs so please do convince me.



LethalWalou #11 Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:18 PM

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View PostAngelofAwe, on 08 January 2020 - 03:11 PM, said:

Which statistics?

 

Winrate curves and them performing as well as other LTs in damage dealt and assisted. If they look so terrible on paper, how are they then performing in a balanced way? They are nowhere near the worst tanks in the game, or even close to bad tanks either.


Go play them yourself and stop listening to people who haven't played them telling how bad they are and stop looking at the numbers about the tanks characteristics.



Geno1isme #12 Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:24 PM

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View PostAngelofAwe, on 08 January 2020 - 05:11 PM, said:

Which statistics?

To be completely transparent here, I have not played the British LTs and I won't because they look like the absolute worst garbage in this entire game. And that's in competition with things like the Sturer Emil and AMX 65t.
I would like to play them as I love LTs and MTs so please do convince me.

People also thought the same thing about the EVEN 90 initially. Some things just can't be seen on paper stats.



AngelofAwe #13 Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:27 PM

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View PostLethalWalou, on 08 January 2020 - 05:18 PM, said:

 

Winrate curves and them performing as well as other LTs in damage dealt and assisted. If they look so terrible on paper, how are they then performing in a balanced way? They are nowhere near the worst tanks in the game, or even close to bad tanks either.


Go play them yourself and stop listening to people who haven't played them telling how bad they are and stop looking at the numbers about the tanks characteristics.


Do you have a link to winrate curves? I do not know where to find them.
Can you also link a source on the assisted numbers being equal? Same for them.

In damage they are (according to wot life) more or less average compared to the other LTs, but that is of course skewed by them being played by primarily good players just like with every new line.
There are 5-10% as many owners of the British LTs as the LTs of other tech trees. 
A more interesting comparison would be to look at how older lines looked in WR/damage when they were introduced compared to what these ones look like. Have you tried that?

I'm pretty good at judging tanks on the numbers and gameplay without playing them myself even if I'm not perfect either. I asked you to convince me so give me the facts.

Their stats seem awful, they have absolutely no apparent strengths and every player I know despises them. Many of those players are far superior to me in skill and still cannot make them work in any way at all.
Therefore I consider their opinions quite valid. 


Edited by AngelofAwe, 08 January 2020 - 04:33 PM.


DangerMouse #14 Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:34 PM

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View PostAngelofAwe, on 08 January 2020 - 03:27 PM, said:


Do you have a link to winrate curves? I do not know where to find them.
Can you also link a source on the assisted numbers being equal? Same for them.

In damage they are (according to wot life) more or less average compared to the other LTs, but that is of course skewed by them being played by primarily good players just like with every new line.
There are 5-10% as many owners of the British LTs as the LTs of other tech trees. 
A more interesting comparison would be to look at how older lines looked in WR/damage when they were introduced compared to what these ones do. Have you tried that?

I'm pretty good at judging tanks on the numbers and gameplay without playing them myself even if I'm not perfect either. I asked you to convince me so give me the facts.

Their stats seem awful, they have absolutely no apparent strengths and every player I know despises them. Many of those players are far superior to me in skill and still cannot make them work in any way at all.
Therefore I consider their opinions quite valid. 

 

Started playing the Manticore and the T100TL at the same time and certainly the T100LT is a far more rounded performer, even with the 2 skill crew I have in it compared to the 4/5 skilled crew I used in the Manticore.



tajj7 #15 Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:48 PM

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View PostLethalWalou, on 08 January 2020 - 03:18 PM, said:

 

Winrate curves and them performing as well as other LTs in damage dealt and assisted. If they look so terrible on paper, how are they then performing in a balanced way? They are nowhere near the worst tanks in the game, or even close to bad tanks either.


Go play them yourself and stop listening to people who haven't played them telling how bad they are and stop looking at the numbers about the tanks characteristics.

 

Because they are the least played tanks in the game pretty much, at all tiers, even some rare premiums and reward tanks are seeing more play. Only 6k people on the whole EU server own the Manticore and barely 30% of those owners have bothered playing it over the last month.

 

There are 4k more T95/FV4201 Chieftains than Manticores, that is telling. 

 

Barely 15k people have the tier 8, a tier 8 tech tree FFs that has been out months and you only need to grind through a tier 6 and 7 to get it, so it's not even a full tech tree. I mean 10k people paid 30k for that awful Raumpanzer premium but barely 5k more have a ground out a free light tank that you could pre-earn XP on the Cromwell from. 

 

TWICE as many people have got the Emil 1951 from Frontlines than the tier 8 British light, even though that took more grinding. 

 

Which means two things, the samples sizes are not really there for an accurate picture and the playerbase are not really used to it and have little knowledge of them so probably treat them with more respect than they need to.

 

Tanks like the Kranvagn, TVP and 705A had over performing WR curves for the first 6 months or so of their lives IIRC because not many people had them and not many people therefore faced them and didn't know how to deal with them.

 

Give it 6 months to a year and those WR curves will drop IMO, you need at least 30-40k players to have a tank to start getting accurate WR curves IMO. 

 

The few people that own and are still playing these tanks are hardcore players, I mean currently when you click on the WR curve for the Manticore says this lol - 

 

"Bad arguments: Too few coordinates" 


Edited by tajj7, 08 January 2020 - 04:51 PM.


LethalWalou #16 Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:49 PM

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View PostAngelofAwe, on 08 January 2020 - 03:27 PM, said:

Do you have a link to winrate curves? I do not know where to find them.
Can you also link a source on the assisted numbers being equal? Same for them.

 

Here and here

You can find the winrate curves yourself from wot-news.

Regarding the damage numbers there was comments made by the staff on the forums some time after they came, Eek talked about it recently on stream when asked and I did my own checking of several players as well as my own performance and experience in them. So I'm not able to deliver those ''stats'' per se for you as we don't get ''official'' stats like that released for any tank afaik.

 

Block Quote

 In damage they are (according to wot life) more or less average compared to the other LTs, but that is of course skewed by them being played by primarily good players just like with every new line.
A more interesting comparison would be to look at how older lines looked in WR/damage when they were introduced compared to what these ones do. Have you tried that?

 

Wot-life still shows just the global stats, it not useful for anything other than number of tanks really.

I have no idea where to find historical data of damage numbers as afaik we don't get such statistics from an official source. For winrate you can visit wot-news and play around with the tanks and timelines as you like to see.

 

Block Quote

 I'm pretty good at judging tanks on the numbers and gameplay without playing them myself even if I'm not perfect either. I asked you to convince me so give me the facts.

 

Well, as said by Geno1sme, people perceived EVEN 90 as a terrible tank when it came and see how it turned out to be in reality. Just because you see some stats are worse than others, it doesn't automatically mean that the tank is going to be bad, it just doesn't have exactly the same playstyle of the tank you are comparing it to.

 

Try them yourself, honestly. Cobra tried and his opinion did change even though he still would prefer more DPM. I personally don't mind the DPM and would welcome more ammo as I'm a person who blindfires a lot. It's the play style differences and preferences 

 

Block Quote

 Their stats seem awful, they have absolutely no apparent strengths and every player I know despises them. Many of those players are far superior to me in skill and still cannot make them work in any way at all.
Therefore I consider their opinions quite valid. 

 

Have you checked their results in them? How did they perform? CCs for example perform really well in them, for Skill Manticore is his best performing LT. I don't know of his opinion about it, but he is not performing badly in it. And if someone is going to say that ''good players will perform well in everything'', it doesn't mean anything when the tank is called bad yet it's the best performing tank of that class for a good player. For me UK LTs are best performing LTs, comparing to the most recent lines I've grinded, but then again I didn't use to play LTs in past even. Imagine if it was better, would it suddenly perform worse or better? Better of course, so since it's performing in a balanced way, there really is no point to demand huge buffs to it with no nerfs. If something is going to be done, it has to be rebalancing, a trade-off.



Cobra6 #17 Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:53 PM

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View PostDangerMouse, on 08 January 2020 - 02:37 PM, said:

Not sure limited ammo should ever be used as a balancing factor.


It should not, no.

 

Maybe in 2012 but in 2020 WoT, every tank should have enough ammo, basically the same as it's peers of the tier.

 

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Technocrat_Prime #18 Posted 08 January 2020 - 05:00 PM

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No buffs needed, but did not find such an option in the poll. That makes the whole poll senseless, don't you think?



LethalWalou #19 Posted 08 January 2020 - 05:01 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 08 January 2020 - 03:48 PM, said:

Because they are the least played tanks in the game pretty much, at all tiers, even some rare premiums and reward tanks are seeing more play. Only 6k people on the whole EU server played the Manticore and barely 30% of those owners have bothered playing it over the last month.

 

There are 4k more T95/FV4201 Chieftains than Manticores, that is telling. 

 

Barely 15k people have the tier 8, a tier 8 tech tree FFs that has been out months and you only need to grind through a tier 6 and 7 to get it, so it's not even a full tech tree.

 

TWICE as many people have got the Emil 1951 from Frontlines than the tier 8 British light, even though that took more grinding. 

 

Give it 6 months to a year and those WR curves will drop IMO, you need at least 30-40k players to have a tank to start getting accurate WR curves IMO. 

 

The few people that own and are still playing these tanks are hardcore players, I mean currently when you click on the WR curve for the Manticore says this lol - 

 

"Bad arguments: Too few coordinates" 

 

And where did you get your ''6k played''? Wot-news shows that but as I said in another thread, those numbers aren't actually the number of players playing them, it's the number of mastery badges gotten on them, or something along those lines. When checking T-22 stats, it says number of vehicles played was 1 in last two weeks and then there was number of 2nd class mastery gotten and it was 1 as well. Wot-life at least shows 14610 of them and it is growing. Amount of Chieftains is actually 34k, not 10k...

 

The other amounts go

T7: 94k

T8: 41k

T9: 22k

Emil 1951: 111k

 

Get your facts straight ffs.

 

Block Quote

 Which means two things, the samples sizes are not really there for an accurate picture and the playerbase are not really used to it and have little knowledge of them so probably treat them with more respect than they need to.

 

What new did they bring to the game for people to not be used to them?

 

Block Quote

 "Bad arguments: Too few coordinates" 

 

I already debunked this as it was obviously a bug. T-22 a tank that is owned less and played much less was able to draw a winrate curve. I was also able to bypass the bug by drawing the Manticore winrate curve in the T-22 graph. I posted everything to the forums.

 

You've been ignoring the whole topic and just posted feels for a while now. You are happy to use winrate curves for everything else but when it comes to UK LTs, you mistakenly claim that they are not valid and then quote some wrong numbers and just trust on your feels. They are performing in a balanced state, like it or not. Demanding big buffs to them without giving nerfs is moronic and it would make them perform too well.


Edited by LethalWalou, 08 January 2020 - 05:04 PM.


ValkyrionX #20 Posted 08 January 2020 - 05:02 PM

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Improving British Light Tanks :P







Also tagged with Light tanks, Buffs, Manticore, British Tanks

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