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VK 45.03 is a Tiger III concept?

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Ratriq #1 Posted 12 January 2020 - 12:20 PM

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Wait, hold on, I just saw that the tank description on the VK 45.03 says it was "designated the Tiger III".

I've always had the impression this was the Tiger II "P", the one which was made by Porsche, thus why it has the Porsche turret.
I thought the E 100 was supposed to be the Tiger III. Also, why does the "Tiger III" VK 45.03 have the Porsche turret? since this turret was a prototype turret for the Tiger II, why would they want to upgrade the Tiger II with an older prototype turret of an older tank?
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Edited by Ratriq, 12 January 2020 - 12:22 PM.


MeetriX #2 Posted 12 January 2020 - 12:49 PM

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Porsche turret is a myth.

Ratriq #3 Posted 12 January 2020 - 12:58 PM

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View PostMeetriX, on 12 January 2020 - 11:49 AM, said:

Porsche turret is a myth.

Hm, care to elaborate?



MeetriX #4 Posted 12 January 2020 - 01:10 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 12 January 2020 - 12:58 PM, said:

Hm, care to elaborate?

https://blog.tiger-t...e-news/turrets/

"Krupp had been given a contract to design and build turrets for the VK.45.02(P) – the Porsche version. They completed fifty, and, as there were now no Porsche hulls to fit them to, delivered them to Henschel. These became the Tiger IIs with the curved front turret."

 

"The ‘Porsche turret’ is so named because it was intended for (but never fitted to) a tank hull designed by Porsche, and the ‘Henschel turret’ because it was fitted to a hull designed by that firm."

 

Both build by coffee maker company.



Ratriq #5 Posted 12 January 2020 - 02:02 PM

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View PostMeetriX, on 12 January 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

https://blog.tiger-t...e-news/turrets/

"Krupp had been given a contract to design and build turrets for the VK.45.02(P) – the Porsche version. They completed fifty, and, as there were now no Porsche hulls to fit them to, delivered them to Henschel. These became the Tiger IIs with the curved front turret."

 

"The ‘Porsche turret’ is so named because it was intended for (but never fitted to) a tank hull designed by Porsche, and the ‘Henschel turret’ because it was fitted to a hull designed by that firm."

 

Both build by coffee maker company.

Oh yeah, I actually completely forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me on that one.



_cro_magnon #6 Posted 12 January 2020 - 02:23 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 12 January 2020 - 12:58 PM, said:

Hm, care to elaborate?

 

Most people refer it to Porsche turret because you see, it is designed by Porsche. Nothing wrong with your post.



Nishi_Kinuyo #7 Posted 12 January 2020 - 02:38 PM

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View Post_cro_magnon, on 12 January 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

 

Most people refer it to Porsche turret because you see, it is designed by Porsche. Nothing wrong with your post.

No, it was designed and built by Krupp...

It was for the Porsche-built Tiger II prototypes...

 

Also, I doubt that Tiger III was an actual thing, considering that it is almost identical to the Tiger II, and the Germans were working on the Entwicklung series after (E-50, E-75, etc.)



_cro_magnon #8 Posted 12 January 2020 - 02:45 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 12 January 2020 - 02:38 PM, said:

No, it was designed and built by Krupp...

It was for the Porsche-built Tiger II prototypes...

 

Yes, whatever honestly, when most people call it Porsche turret. Nothing wrong with that, except historical accuracy nitpicking.



Ratriq #9 Posted 12 January 2020 - 03:01 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 12 January 2020 - 01:38 PM, said:

Also, I doubt that Tiger III was an actual thing, considering that it is almost identical to the Tiger II, and the Germans were working on the Entwicklung series after (E-50, E-75, etc.)

Yeah, that's a weird thing though, the most I've read about the "Tiger III" was the E-100, they even managed to complete the E-100 hull. But why would this earlier concept of the Tiger III have an older, already rejected turret design which is the one a lot call the "Porsche" turret.

I mean shouldn't the Tiger "III" be an improved version of the Tiger II? Why put a rejected prototype turret from an older model to the newest model then?



Karasu_Hidesuke #10 Posted 12 January 2020 - 03:08 PM

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View PostMeetriX, on 12 January 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

 

Both build by coffee maker company.

 

:unsure:

 

Now I finally understand a few things...



Nishi_Kinuyo #11 Posted 12 January 2020 - 03:11 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 12 January 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Yeah, that's a weird thing though, the most I've read about the "Tiger III" was the E-100, they even managed to complete the E-100 hull. But why would this earlier concept of the Tiger III have an older, already rejected turret design which is the one a lot call the "Porsche" turret.

I mean shouldn't the Tiger "III" be an improved version of the Tiger II? Why put a rejected prototype turret from an older model to the newest model then?

Yes, but the thing is, the Tiger II prototypes were the VK45 designs, making the VK45.03 the third design by some company, but we don't know which since it is missing the company designation letter.

Now, there is a VK45.03(H) design for the Tiger II, so it could be that, also considering that the VK45.03 we have in-game has the pre-production Krupp turret on it, and the VK45.03(H) prototypes were indeed fitted with those turrets.

 

So suffice to say, all evidence points to the VK45.03 being the VK45.03(H) and thus being a Tiger II prototype, not Tiger III.



Ratriq #12 Posted 12 January 2020 - 03:15 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 12 January 2020 - 02:11 PM, said:

Yes, but the thing is, the Tiger II prototypes were the VK45 designs, making the VK45.03 the third design by some company, but we don't know which since it is missing the company designation letter.

Now, there is a VK45.03(H) design for the Tiger II, so it could be that, also considering that the VK45.03 we have in-game has the pre-production Krupp turret on it, and the VK45.03(H) prototypes were indeed fitted with those turrets.

 

So suffice to say, all evidence points to the VK45.03 being the VK45.03(H) and thus being a Tiger II prototype, not Tiger III.

Yeah, that's what I thought but still thought it is weird why WG would say themself that it was a Tiger III project. Could be them being wrong I suppose, since this company isn't the best when it comes to historical accuracy.



Nishi_Kinuyo #13 Posted 12 January 2020 - 03:17 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 12 January 2020 - 03:15 PM, said:

Yeah, that's what I thought but still thought it is weird why WG would say themself that it was a Tiger III project. Could be them being wrong I suppose, since this company isn't the best when it comes to historical accuracy.

Sorry, read a bit further into it since my last post, and they did initially refer to it as the Tiger III project, only to rename it to Tiger II like half a year later, with the VK45.02(H) having been called the Tiger II before being abandoned late 1942.



Ratriq #14 Posted 12 January 2020 - 03:22 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 12 January 2020 - 02:17 PM, said:

Sorry, read a bit further into it since my last post, and they did initially refer to it as the Tiger III project, only to rename it to Tiger II like half a year later, with the VK45.02(H) having been called the Tiger II before being abandoned late 1942.

Wait, let me see if I get this right. So you mean, it was initially supposed to be an "upgraded" Tiger II, thus why it was called "Tiger III" but they then renamed the project to "Tiger II" which I suppose they then did cause they didn't want it to be a whole new tiger model. And thus, they later scrapped the project completely?



Balc0ra #15 Posted 12 January 2020 - 04:48 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 12 January 2020 - 03:15 PM, said:

Yeah, that's what I thought but still thought it is weird why WG would say themself that it was a Tiger III project. Could be them being wrong I suppose, since this company isn't the best when it comes to historical accuracy.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that WG have made a few tanks on their own true. Or rather mixed a few prints together, or made tanks out of real parts and their own designs to fill the gaps to make a complete line. Like on the Jap HTs. But on the other hand, they also use historians that have access to vaults with info not easily found online to prove differently. But that doesn't mean that their historians have not found other VK 45.03 variants or Tiger III plans or designs that never left paper and was rejected due to politics or financial reasons. Again, as we don't have access to such vaults. Who knows.

 

View PostRatriq, on 12 January 2020 - 03:22 PM, said:

Wait, let me see if I get this right. So you mean, it was initially supposed to be an "upgraded" Tiger II, thus why it was called "Tiger III" but they then renamed the project to "Tiger II" which I suppose they then did cause they didn't want it to be a whole new tiger model. And thus, they later scrapped the project completely?

 

As taken from one of my digital books that might explain it a bit better.

 

Block Quote

 

After a great deal of political maneuvering, Krupp was given a contract to develop a new high-performance 8.8cm tank gun, the KwK43. They also designed a turret that would fit the next Porsche design for a heavy tank, the VK45.02 (P). This second Porsche design also failed because its’ many innovative features couldn’t be made to work reliably. Meanwhile, the Henschel company was given a contract to design a heavy tank that became the Tiger I. It entered service in the late summer of 1942. The Porsche Tiger project was canceled in November 1942 and Henschel was then instructed to design an upgraded tank that could carry the gun and turret designed for the VK45.02 (P). This tank was given the development designation VK45.03 (H) and was to be produced as quickly as possible.

 

The first 50 Tiger II tanks were fitted with the Krupp turret designed for the Porsche VK45.02 (P). These are sometimes (inaccurately) called ‘Porsche’ turrets. The original design of turret had a rounded front and mantlet that proved to be a shot trap and was expensive to produce. A total of 1,500 Tiger II tanks were ordered. Henschel only managed to produce 489 gun tanks between November 1943 and March 1945..

 

As was pointed out above, the in game 45.03 doesn't have a P or an H behind it to name one. Thus not the same as the 45.03 talked about here.


Edited by Balc0ra, 12 January 2020 - 04:52 PM.


DuncaN_101 #16 Posted 12 January 2020 - 05:38 PM

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View PostKarasu_Hidesuke, on 12 January 2020 - 03:08 PM, said:

 

:unsure:

 

Now I finally understand a few things...

Hence the weak armour... The coffee needs to be filtered well. 



Nishi_Kinuyo #17 Posted 12 January 2020 - 05:48 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 12 January 2020 - 03:22 PM, said:

Wait, let me see if I get this right. So you mean, it was initially supposed to be an "upgraded" Tiger II, thus why it was called "Tiger III" but they then renamed the project to "Tiger II" which I suppose they then did cause they didn't want it to be a whole new tiger model. And thus, they later scrapped the project completely?

Well, in november 1942 they scrapped the VK45.02(H) Tiger II project, and in march or may 1943 they renamed the VK45.03(H) Tiger III project to Tiger II as not to leave gaps in numbering I guess.

The VK45.03(H) Project was then refined into the production model of the Tiger II, afaik, complete with updated turret with no shot traps.

View PostBalc0ra, on 12 January 2020 - 04:48 PM, said:

As was pointed out above, the in game 45.03 doesn't have a P or an H behind it to name one. Thus not the same as the 45.03 talked about here.

Except I think it that the VK45.03 in-game is the VK45.03(H) project. The Tiger III naming in the description would fit with that, along with various other things of the VK45.03(H) Project such as the UFP's armour thickness and the fact it has the pre-production turret on it.







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