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Proposal on balancing of the entire list of tanks


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Aleo #1 Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:46 PM

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WG has the last year conducted several sandbox tests to rebalance the ammunition, to make it more a player choice and not just P2W. In the same tests they have proposed to increase the HP pool of the lower tier tanks, to increase the life expectancy and thus the length of the battle.

 

These changes have not been without problems, most notably the perceived issue that the premium rounds on premium tanks can not be changes as that would be a change to the product after sale (I guess WGs lawyers foresee a rush of complaints and claims for refund…;)

 

So why not go just a bit further? They have an opportunity to make good some of the mistakes that they have made.

 

My suggestion has two basic premises about the players and their willingness to spend money in the game:

  1. We want a game based more on skill, experience and fair play. We really hate it when we see other players just blatantly flaunts wealth to get a superior tank despite being a horrible player.
  2. Premium vehicles are fine and dandy, if they are not superior to a TT tank of the same level and make. I don’t mind other people buying tanks if they don’t buy an advantage as well.

 

While I might be wrong on both, its how I interpret most of the players that voices their concern in the forum and other sites.

 

My suggestion is simply as follows:

  1. Rebalance all the tank lines around (most of) the premium vehicles. Increase the HP, damage and penetration of the techtree tanks so that the premium ones become the baseline, and once more are equal to, or marginally worse to, their TT counterparts.
  2. Those premiums that fall way below the baseline ought to get a small buff to fit better.
  3. Make it possible to rent some of the old and all new premium tanks for a shorter period, payable only with gold, make that the preferred option.

 

My suggestion is not that huge, although it might take some manpower to fix the databases. It’s my opinion that most players are ok with the old concept that premium tanks gain more credits and xp for the crew, so there is no need to abandon that principle. Our biggest gripe is that we perceive that WG are laughing at us all the way to the bank with the money they have made selling OP tanks to sub-par players, or the scorn we have for them.

 

With the introduction of tank rentals instead of permanent purchase as the main method of getting a premium tank, WG is more at liberty to adjust the parameters of the premium tanks, both old and new, if there are issues with the tanks that needs to be fixed.  

 

There are some 210 premium tanks listed at tanks.gg and that ought to be more than enough to create a baseline for all the nations. 

Do any of you have any constructive feedback to this suggestion? 


Edited by Aleo, 16 January 2020 - 03:15 PM.


Nethraniel #2 Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:54 PM

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A full overhaul of everything would be phenomenal, if done right.

 

However, this is a monumental task for the hundreds of tanks in one go.

 

Additionally, touching the power balance of premiums... let's say WG maneuvered themselves in a tricky situation there, as most players will demand compensation if their precious little premium tank gets (indirectly) nerfed.



shikaka9 #3 Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:59 PM

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And skill should be based on how much you buy on this game. More you buy better MM, stats, tanks you have. No buy - you are trampled on buy "skilled" players . :)

 

 

 

Oh wait

 

 

 



Aleo #4 Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:06 PM

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View PostNethraniel, on 16 January 2020 - 03:54 PM, said:

A full overhaul of everything would be phenomenal, if done right.

 

However, this is a monumental task for the hundreds of tanks in one go.

 

Additionally, touching the power balance of premiums... let's say WG maneuvered themselves in a tricky situation there, as most players will demand compensation if their precious little premium tank gets (indirectly) nerfed.



I would think that most of the changes could be done as easy as running a script in the database adjusting the HPs for all the tanks without a specific permium tag. I'm not at tech-guy, but I hope that WG has some kind of uniform structure of their model DB. After that there would be some fine tuning. They could do two or three tiers pr update. 

As for the Premiums; yeah.. people tend to buy a perception of an item, not the item its self. If I bought a car that my inner Ego told me that I'd be happy and admired in (No, I'm not that shallow) My perception of that purchase would be greatly diminished if my neighbour bought a better car than me... Even if my car had not changed at all.  

14:09 Added after 3 minute

View Postshikaka9, on 16 January 2020 - 03:59 PM, said:

And skill should be based on how much you buy on this game. More you buy better MM, stats, tanks you have. No buy - you are trampled on buy "skilled" players . :)

 

 

 

Oh wait

 

 

 


:trollface:



Strappster #5 Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:17 PM

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View PostAleo, on 16 January 2020 - 01:46 PM, said:

These changes have not been without problems, most notably the perceived issue that the premium rounds on premium tanks can not be changes as that would be a change to the product after sale (I guess WGs lawyers foresee a rush of complaints and claims for refund… 

 

I don't see how that's the case. Premium shells have been available for credits since I started playing and when these changes were first proposed, the option to buy with gold was removed altogether. While there are probably still some players who have a stock of premium shells purchased for gold, that has to be a minimal part of the playerbase and any refunds due to those players wouldn't have a huge impact on WG's coffers.

 

Moving on from that, your post is based on the premise that the game is pay-to-win. I don't see how that's the case. While there are some strong premium tanks in the game, once their weaknesses are identified they don't tend to be a major problem except for those players who don't know or are unable to exploit those weaknesses (e.g. Chrysler K, Defender). I see far more complaints about tanks being OP that are free to earn (Obj. 260, Obj. 279, Chieftain-a-like, Obj. 907, etc.).

 

View PostAleo, on 16 January 2020 - 01:46 PM, said:

My suggestion is simply as follows:

  1. Rebalance all the tank lines around (most of) the premium vehicles. Increase the HP, damage and penetration of the techtree tanks so that the premium ones become the baseline, and once more are equal to, or marginally worse to, their TT counterparts.
  2. Those premiums that fall way below the baseline ought to get a small buff to fit better.
  3. Make it possible to rent some of the old and all new premium tanks for a shorter period, payable only with gold, make that the preferred option. 

 

Implement that and say goodbye to player goodwill, shortly followed by a large part of the playerbase. That's not because people have paid money for an advantage, it's because they've paid money for a product that has been significantly devalued. You could argue that this is already being done, I traded my IS-6 because it's nearly useless when not top tier but I remember when it was a tank to fear on the enemy team. The gradual change we have now is a lot easier to accept than the blanket sweep you're proposing.

 

View PostAleo, on 16 January 2020 - 01:46 PM, said:

Our biggest gripe is that we perceive that WG are laughing at us all the way to the bank with the money they have made selling OP tanks to sub-par players, or the scorn we have for them. 

 

Is it? Do we? Have you asked everyone? :unsure:

 

Seems that your issue here is more about players who buy tanks they're not ready for. You can't blame WG (a business) for wanting to make money and while it's annoying to have potatoes on your team, you have to accept that when your team wins a walkover it's likely that the other team had the potatoes rather than your personal brilliance carried your team to victory.

 



NekoPuffer_PPP #6 Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:17 PM

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Reload times should be increased globally in order to increase TTK (Time-To-Kill) and lengthen battles and roflstomps. Along with HP buffs ofc.

Aleo #7 Posted 16 January 2020 - 04:00 PM

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View PostBrinklyWollox, on 16 January 2020 - 04:17 PM, said:

 

I don't see how that's the case. Premium shells have been available for credits since I started playing and when these changes were first proposed, the option to buy with gold was removed altogether. While there are probably still some players who have a stock of premium shells purchased for gold, that has to be a minimal part of the playerbase and any refunds due to those players wouldn't have a huge impact on WG's coffers.

 

Moving on from that, your post is based on the premise that the game is pay-to-win. I don't see how that's the case. While there are some strong premium tanks in the game, once their weaknesses are identified they don't tend to be a major problem except for those players who don't know or are unable to exploit those weaknesses (e.g. Chrysler K, Defender). I see far more complaints about tanks being OP that are free to earn (Obj. 260, Obj. 279, Chieftain-a-like, Obj. 907, etc.).

 

 

I thought so too, so I can't really understand the difficulties WG has in re-balancing the ammotypes. My premise IS that the game has become P2W, if you throw your wallet at the game you can get superior tanks and crews compared to an F2P player. 

View PostBrinklyWollox, on 16 January 2020 - 04:17 PM, said:

Is it? Do we? Have you asked everyone? :unsure:

 

Seems that your issue here is more about players who buy tanks they're not ready for. You can't blame WG (a business) for wanting to make money and while it's annoying to have potatoes on your team, you have to accept that when your team wins a walkover it's likely that the other team had the potatoes rather than your personal brilliance carried your team to victory.

 

Yes, Through my many disguises and reincarnations throughout the years I have, I'v not always got an answer back though... I don't blame WG. I hope they make enough money too keep this game alive and developing for many more years. I have a lot of premium tanks in my garage that I'd be sad to loose once they shut down the servers. I do however have a problem with the attitude that sometimes pops up; that if you only have enough money you can have the best of the best no questions asked.

 

Sometimes I'd really like for some game developer actually put some limits on players spending. Like for instance blocking buying a tier 8 tank until you actually have unlocked that tier on that line of that country. So no Scorp G to players with 200 battles until they have a RhB Waffle. But that is beside the point. 



Strappster #8 Posted 16 January 2020 - 04:22 PM

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View PostAleo, on 16 January 2020 - 03:00 PM, said:

My premise IS that the game has become P2W, if you throw your wallet at the game you can get superior tanks and crews compared to an F2P player. 

 

That's pay-to-progress, not pay-to-win. While some of those premium tanks are stronger than regular tech tree vehicles on the same tier, it only takes the free player time to match or exceed that level. There's also the argument that the paying player is quickly going to be out of their depth and will suffer for it - that certainly happened to me when I bought my Löwe and faced tier 10 tanks played by experienced players with multi-skilled crews.

 

We've all seen the inexperienced Skorpion players sitting at the back in a bush, scoring one or two shots of damage per battle, but we've seen them on both teams. I'm more concerned that their negative experience could stop them playing the game than any pay-to-win aspect that might be introduced.

 

If anything, these shouts about the game being pay-to-win are partly responsible for those players failing hard. They expect to do well because they've paid good money for a pixel tank only to find they're getting stuffed by a free-to-play guy who knows to switch to HE when he sees their Skorpion.

 

View PostAleo, on 16 January 2020 - 03:00 PM, said:

Sometimes I'd really like for some game developer actually put some limits on players spending. Like for instance blocking buying a tier 8 tank until you actually have unlocked that tier on that line of that country. So no Scorp G to players with 200 battles until they have a RhB Waffle. But that is beside the point. 

 

I wouldn't object to such measures and don't think I would have had a problem with it as a new player, though I can understand why it's not favoured from a business perspective. "Wait, you want to prevent them from spending money?!" :amazed:



unclexray #9 Posted 16 January 2020 - 04:29 PM

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NO PAY NO WIN     KIDS IN THA HOUSE DONT KNOW WHAT THEY DO. MOST WURTS IS WHERE IS THE TEAM PLAY.

SINCE A VIEW YEARS  YOU PLAY 1 TO 29 IN THIS GAME 
ITS ALBOUT EGO

REDLINE CAMPERS
BLAME OTHERS
AND BUY T8 PREM AND HAVE T4 IN GAR


Edited by unclexray, 16 January 2020 - 05:03 PM.


Gixxer66 #10 Posted 16 January 2020 - 05:15 PM

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View PostAleo, on 16 January 2020 - 03:00 PM, said:

 

I thought so too, so I can't really understand the difficulties WG has in re-balancing the ammotypes. My premise IS that the game has become P2W, if you throw your wallet at the game you can get superior tanks and crews compared to an F2P player. 

 

279e, T95/FV. Obj260, Bobject, 430U are all avaiable to anyone.

 

There have been numerous marathons that give away Premium Tanks, T-34/85, T-44/100, Progetto, STA2 ( Bond Shop / FL ) etc etc. None of those required cash to get and are all borderline OP at their Tiers. If you count tanks in the Bond shop then the 121B, M60 count as freebies. Crews can be boosted for credits via crew books, which even on a F2P account aren't that hard to generate, plenty of boosters are given away. My F2P account is sitting on 100's of them.



Inappropriate_noob #11 Posted 16 January 2020 - 08:23 PM

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Pulling the plug on the game would be much better, load the gold or die

WindSplitter1 #12 Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:43 PM

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View PostGixxer66, on 16 January 2020 - 04:15 PM, said:

 

279e, T95/FV. Obj260, Bobject, 430U are all avaiable to anyone.

 

There have been numerous marathons that give away Premium Tanks, T-34/85, T-44/100, Progetto, STA2 ( Bond Shop / FL ) etc etc. None of those required cash to get and are all borderline OP at their Tiers. If you count tanks in the Bond shop then the 121B, M60 count as freebies. Crews can be boosted for credits via crew books, which even on a F2P account aren't that hard to generate, plenty of boosters are given away. My F2P account is sitting on 100's of them.

 

STA-2 isn't OP.

Neither is the Progetto (it's the Pantera that has .5+ intra clip reload for no reason, and bounces less).



Jumping_Turtle #13 Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:03 PM

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View PostBrinklyWollox, on 16 January 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

 

While there are probably still some players who have a stock of premium shells purchased for gold, that has to be a minimal part of the playerbase and any refunds due to those players wouldn't have a huge impact on WG's coffers.

 

I once heard that there are huge amounts of old acounts where there are millions and millions of gold ammo on purchased with gold. And that is one of the reasons why they arent just nerfing the gold ammo. If the news gets out and a lot of those old acounts have to be compensated with money it would be a huge setback. And paying money back isnt Wargamings favorite thing to do.



Floppy_Lobster #14 Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:04 PM

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View Postunclexray, on 16 January 2020 - 03:29 PM, said:

NO PAY NO WIN     KIDS IN THA HOUSE DONT KNOW WHAT THEY DO. MOST WURTS IS WHERE IS THE TEAM PLAY.

SINCE A VIEW YEARS  YOU PLAY 1 TO 29 IN THIS GAME 
ITS ALBOUT EGO

REDLINE CAMPERS
BLAME OTHERS
AND BUY T8 PREM AND HAVE T4 IN GAR




killer999death #15 Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:05 PM

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They said they are going to completely change health pool of tanks which I think is an important change to make battles last longer as well as having less situations where full HP tanks don't want to go forward because taking 1 hit from a TD will result in 80% lost HP. 

Health rebalance first, shell rebalance after and once that is done WG needs to fix their damn physics and fall damage because it's bugged to hell.

Alzamon #16 Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:20 PM

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View Postkiller999death, on 16 January 2020 - 10:05 PM, said:

They said they are going to completely change health pool of tanks which I think is an important change to make battles last longer as well as having less situations where full HP tanks don't want to go forward because taking 1 hit from a TD will result in 80% lost HP. 

Health rebalance first, shell rebalance after and once that is done WG needs to fix their damn physics and fall damage because it's bugged to hell.


This^ Also reintroduce some off road reality, or else they might just add [edited]dragons at this point because it will be as realistic as a armored car going 100km/h off road.



Strappster #17 Posted 17 January 2020 - 12:01 PM

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View Postkiller999death, on 16 January 2020 - 10:05 PM, said:

They said they are going to completely change health pool of tanks which I think is an important change to make battles last longer as well as having less situations where full HP tanks don't want to go forward because taking 1 hit from a TD will result in 80% lost HP. 

 

It'll be interesting to see how this gets implemented. As far as I can see (I haven't played it), the point of the FV4005 is to deliver those 80% punches and the lack of armour means it'll get punished in return, which it will be because it doesn't have the accuracy to sit back and hope-snipe. At least the JPE100 has enough armour to withstand brawling range shots.

 

BTW, I'm not suggesting the game gets balanced around a single monster TD, I'm only expressing an interest in how that particular example could be affected. :)



Aleo #18 Posted 17 January 2020 - 12:02 PM

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View PostBrinklyWollox, on 16 January 2020 - 05:22 PM, said:

 

That's pay-to-progress, not pay-to-win. While some of those premium tanks are stronger than regular tech tree vehicles on the same tier, it only takes the free player time to match or exceed that level. There's also the argument that the paying player is quickly going to be out of their depth and will suffer for it - that certainly happened to me when I bought my Löwe and faced tier 10 tanks played by experienced players with multi-skilled crews.

 

We've all seen the inexperienced Skorpion players sitting at the back in a bush, scoring one or two shots of damage per battle, but we've seen them on both teams. I'm more concerned that their negative experience could stop them playing the game than any pay-to-win aspect that might be introduced.

 

If anything, these shouts about the game being pay-to-win are partly responsible for those players failing hard. They expect to do well because they've paid good money for a pixel tank only to find they're getting stuffed by a free-to-play guy who knows to switch to HE when he sees their Skorpion.

 

I agree with most of your reply. I might have been a tad too wound up over the P2W aspects, especially the fact that you can waltz inn with you newly purchased tier 8 tank with no regards for your own team and more or less be active in its defeat. You are right, its more a "pay to progress"

Although I don't directly suffer from the pay to win, more of my friends have stopped playing the game, or wont even touch it, due to the "pay to progress" factor that you mention. I feel that WG has an opportunity to reevaluate their game and the content. If you are going to adjust the first two- three tiers of tanks then why not the rest as well? 

 

View PostAlzamon, on 17 January 2020 - 12:20 AM, said:


This^ Also reintroduce some off road reality, or else they might just add [edited]dragons at this point because it will be as realistic as a armored car going 100km/h off road.

That would be wonderful if they did... got rid of the corridors as well. Open up the map like it was right after the introduction of the new physics. Give us back boost and mountaingoats!

 

  



killer999death #19 Posted 17 January 2020 - 12:44 PM

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View PostBrinklyWollox, on 17 January 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

 

It'll be interesting to see how this gets implemented. As far as I can see (I haven't played it), the point of the FV4005 is to deliver those 80% punches and the lack of armour means it'll get punished in return, which it will be because it doesn't have the accuracy to sit back and hope-snipe. At least the JPE100 has enough armour to withstand brawling range shots.

 

BTW, I'm not suggesting the game gets balanced around a single monster TD, I'm only expressing an interest in how that particular example could be affected. :)




It's not just FV one shotting things but other examples such as JGP E100 shooting a tank for 90% of it's HP with a single shot just because that tank happens to be 2 tiers lower.  Time and time again I see full HP tanks refusing to advance into a bushy/forest part of the map because they know a TD is in there and one shot will leave them on critical HP.  I've often saw multiple tanks failing to kill the last 2 or 3 enemy tanks just because they were high caliber TD's in bushes around their cap. 


I guess I'm bringing up the problem of map design and health pool balance.


 



Balc0ra #20 Posted 17 January 2020 - 06:16 PM

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Considering most of the premiums are from an earlier balance. Not the greatest of ideas all around for most. As take the Type 64 or 13 57. Lights balanced never to be top tier, but fight +3. Or the Pak 40 or D-Max with pre-nerf TD view range and camo. As that balance was done for a reason tbh. I mean, do you want the all TD's to be balanced around the E25 again?

 

Nor do we need tier 8 to be full of Defenders. Tiger II should look to the Lowe vs that one tbh. 






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