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Does "gold ammo" mean "good player"?


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Gynette76 #1 Posted 17 January 2020 - 09:31 PM

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Hello there, fellow tankers! 

I have been thinking for quite some time about what everyone still calls gold ammunitions and I am a fervent defender of the removal of them from the game. I will explain why down below but first, you have to know that I am open to a lot of discussion about it, as we all have a different point of view. 

 

1) World of tanks is a strategic war game for sure and I think the entire player community will agree about this. Depending on the tank you play, the tiers you're in, the composition of both teams but also the map itself, you have to play differently and in a way to help your allies into winning, whether by capturing the enemy base or destroying your targets (and 90% of the battles end with the second option applied). You need to think about which type of ammunition you are going to fire (mostly explosive ones on poorly armored tanks and perforating ones on heavily armored tanks), which angles and which distance you have to take to hit your target, if you need backup or if you have one able to cover you... You have a lot of parameters to consider and act accordingly: if you are against a tank you are sure not to penetrate, you are not going to play the same as if you would have been able to; it would be more into destroying the tracks to immobilize the vehicles and let the players of your team who can penetrate the target do the job. BUT, "gold" change everything: if you aim correctly, you penetrate 99% of the time. Not like it's not great, it is. But if you are sure to penetrate, you play the game differently, you can lead your team into losing the battle, you focus more on your missions and your statistics than the teamplay and you also act selfishly. This strategic behavior you should have had for the game disappears.

 

2) How many times have I seen players shooting gold with premium tanks while most of them have preferential matchmaking? How many tiers VIII, tiers IX and tiers X tanks _and I mean a majority of the last category_ have I seen gamers playing these ammunitions as well? Sometimes even artillery tanks shoot gold, which is completely insane! Not everyone can afford restocking their tanks with the high-cost gold ammunitions, sometimes convert gold coins you bought with your credit cards into game credits in order to pay them. People with money can already buy premium tanks in the shop, but I think people should have the same chance into playing the game. If only a "rich" player community can play with gold, you encourage "poor" players to either give up the game or pay to have the same opportunity. Or accept the fact that you will never have the privilege to play with the same weapons. 

 

3) Also, the gun mark system is false because of that. 99.99% of tanks with 2/3 gun marks are driven by players shooting with gold ammos. With the same accuracy and same strategic level, those with gold have more chances to penetrate and influence their efficiency in battle. Rare are the players, who can't afford paying for gold, able to reach this 85/95% efficiency with the same tank just because they don't shoot gold. Mostly, and I think everyone will agree, if you see one tank with 2/3 gun marks, you won't tell yourself "cool, here's a good player" but "ah, someone shooting with gold for sure". If you really want these gun marks without gold, you have to be what everyone here calls a "unicum". 

 

These are three main reasons for my proposition: REMOVE GOLD AMMUNITIONS. This will lead to players thinking twice about acting and rushing instead of coming with a strategy to win the battle. This will lead to players remembering the weak spots of a tank instead of saying to themselves "no worries, I play gold ammos which means that I can penetrate anyway". This will lead to players playing as a team again instead of their missions' accomplishments. 

I am pretty sure that removing the "indirect paying system" of gold ammunition OR reducing its price drastically to give everyone a chance to play with them won't be a drama for Wargaming at all; they already have the premium shop and the events to make money. 

 

 

What are your thoughts about it? Is it right? Is it wrong? Why? 

Before you can ask: I think that I am an average player and YES, I shoot with regular ammos (first or third ammos, not the "gold" second), YES I love playing artilleries too and YES, I am tired of these tiers X players shooting with gold. You are top tiers, you have very good guns but you still need gold to penetrate? I think like "gold players" are just people who can't penetrate the tanks in front of them because they don't know the weak spots of them or because they don't know the difference between HE and AP (or APCR regular ammos for some tanks), sometimes both. It's like the NEED gold ammos in order to do something and be useful for the team. Which is not true: even if you can't penetrate, you are still able to destroy the tracks, you still can find another ay to hit enemies by moving instead of staying in the same area. This is only my point of view about it and it concerns only me. But yes, I am a fervent defender of people who plays "fairly" and with regular shells (mostly because they can't afford anything else). 



MrEdweird #2 Posted 17 January 2020 - 09:35 PM

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In my eyes, the situation is rather simple. Premium rounds should never have been a thing and should instead have been a viable alternative, like AW and it's multitudes of situationally useful ammo types.

Wait for the ammo changes that are coming up later this year and see where we go from there.

 

But I disagree that shooting gold somehow makes you a better player. It doesn't. But if you want to be competitive, you should need to use it from time to time because otherwise you're just gimping yourself. If you cannot afford to fire some prem rounds, I suggest sticking to tier 8 and below or until such time that you can afford premium time. The meta at the higher tiers is to fire lots of gold anyways, so you'd be playing at a natural disadvantage. Instead, hone your skills on lower tiers so that when you do get into higher ones, you can be more comfortable firing regular rounds. And don't worry about your stats.

 

Look up Taugrim as an example of an amazing player who does not fire gold.

I'd always take a good player with regular rounds over a bad player with premium rounds since positioning is vastly more important than penetration numbers. I don't personally think a 3marked tank means gold ammo. It usually does at tiers 9 and 10 but not necessarily so tier 8 and under. You don't magically get marks by sitting in the same spot and spamming prem rounds, it requires knowledge of maps and tanks, which is a trait of good players.



AeyT #3 Posted 17 January 2020 - 09:55 PM

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View PostGynette76, on 17 January 2020 - 09:31 PM, said:

tldr: gold ammo bad

Such a brave message. Never heard it before in my entire life.

 



barison1 #4 Posted 17 January 2020 - 10:03 PM

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View PostGynette76, on 17 January 2020 - 09:31 PM, said:

 

3) Also, the gun mark system is false because of that. 99.99% of tanks with 2/3 gun marks are driven by players shooting with gold ammos. With the same accuracy and same strategic level, those with gold have more chances to penetrate and influence their efficiency in battle. Rare are the players, who can't afford paying for gold, able to reach this 85/95% efficiency with the same tank just because they don't shoot gold. Mostly, and I think everyone will agree, if you see one tank with 2/3 gun marks, you won't tell yourself "cool, here's a good player" but "ah, someone shooting with gold for sure". If you really want these gun marks without gold, you have to be what everyone here calls a "unicum". 

 

you can do simple experiment and go full gold yourself and see how much you are able to 2/3 MoE.. or not

 

 



Bulldog_Drummond #5 Posted 17 January 2020 - 10:10 PM

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[edited]

Edited by Zapfhan, 18 January 2020 - 04:32 PM.
removed non-constructive content


apaleytos #6 Posted 18 January 2020 - 12:43 AM

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With the current maps,MM yes you need gold ammo sometimes.For example when i played abit my T-44 in frontlines i never shot gold.

 

Do that in randoms,end up in 5-10 filled with obj430s or bottom 3-5-7  you might actually need gold for cupola shots :trollface:.Yeah i forgot you can flank in these maps and get a majestic 500dmg shot in the face from a corridor w#nker.I guess playing tanks with high base penetration helps.

 

Taugrim and Sirfoch might be playing without shooting gold but they make up with their skill and map knowledge.They would probably see even better results with prem ammo. SKill4ltu goes full prem ammo when needed,does this make him "gold noob"?. Sometimes i watch "top replays" when im bored and the first comment is always "gold noob". Dude had a 10k dmg game and they stick to the type of ammo.I was playing my borsig trying the derp gun and 2shotted a defender with HEAT on his turret face. Have to admit that it felt nice.

 

 

Wait for the ammo rebalance or play paper tanks and laugh at them wasting credits.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by apaleytos, 18 January 2020 - 12:46 AM.


TomatoShooter #7 Posted 18 January 2020 - 01:02 AM

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Removing "gold ammo" will not make good players bad players and bad players good players...good players are good players because they can adapt to the game mechanics, nothing more to it really.

NekoPuffer_PPP #8 Posted 18 January 2020 - 01:24 AM

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View PostTomatoShooter, on 18 January 2020 - 01:02 AM, said:

Removing "gold ammo" will not make good players bad players and bad players good players...good players are good players because they can adapt to the game mechanics, nothing more to it really.

 

Removing it would make bad players worse and good players better. Bad players don't aim for weakspots, good ones do. Bad players won't pick their enemies and will keep bouncing off higher-tiered vehicles, good players will pick their enemies and take different, more advantageous positions, and pick enemies they can penetrate more reliably.

 

It would make the difference between good and bad player bigger. Considering everything WG's done, that is the opposite of what they want. They want bad players to do just as well as good players. A level playing field. A dumbed-down game where you can only rely on luck and RNG, and pray you roll a high number.

 



Schepel #9 Posted 18 January 2020 - 01:34 AM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 18 January 2020 - 01:24 AM, said:

 

Removing it would make bad players worse and good players better. Bad players don't aim for weakspots, good ones do. Bad players won't pick their enemies and will keep bouncing off higher-tiered vehicles, good players will pick their enemies and take different, more advantageous positions, and pick enemies they can penetrate more reliably.

 

It would make the difference between good and bad player bigger. Considering everything WG's done, that is the opposite of what they want. They want bad players to do just as well as good players. A level playing field. A dumbed-down game where you can only rely on luck and RNG, and pray you roll a high number.

 

 

The problem isn't premium ammo. If it weren't there, it would be something else that would be blamed. It is a human trait to try and find an external cause for things that do not work out. So, if you are not winning games, it is because other people use premium ammo, it is because other people play better tanks, it is because they got lucky or whatever other reason you care to mention. Obviously, sometimes these things are indeed a contributing factor, but more often, the primary issue is that one just didn't play well enough. However, that is a story most people do not like to tell (theirselves). So instead they come here and write a wall of text hoping to change something or other, when really the only fix to their problems is to get better at the game. However, that would require work and perhaps a bit of talent. Far easier to write that wall of text.



Inappropriate_noob #10 Posted 18 January 2020 - 02:53 AM

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No it means someone who is just very pissed off with the game, and hates all and everything in life

Oldtanker68 #11 Posted 18 January 2020 - 07:21 AM

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Its not that simple, good players are good players because they understand the core concepts of the game.

 

A bad player that spams gold will never be a good player, only a player with "some" inflated stats.

A good player spamming gold is still a good player that has some inflated stats.

 

For that reason I never like whatching streamers that has full gold loadout on their tanks on steam, but they are still good players.

Lets hope they can balance it somehow, but i doubt it.

 

 


Edited by Oldtanker68, 18 January 2020 - 07:23 AM.


1ucky #12 Posted 18 January 2020 - 07:32 AM

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It doesn't.

fwhaatpiraat #13 Posted 18 January 2020 - 08:32 AM

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"3) Also, the gun mark system is false because of that. 99.99% of tanks with 2/3 gun marks are driven by players shooting with gold ammos. With the same accuracy and same strategic level, those with gold have more chances to penetrate and influence their efficiency in battle. Rare are the players, who can't afford paying for gold, able to reach this 85/95% efficiency with the same tank just because they don't shoot gold. Mostly, and I think everyone will agree, if you see one tank with 2/3 gun marks, you won't tell yourself "cool, here's a good player" but "ah, someone shooting with gold for sure". If you really want these gun marks without gold, you have to be what everyone here calls a "unicum". "

I must be doing something wrong then. Not gonna lie, very often gold ammo is just plain superior, besides costing more and thus basically requiring a premium account. Yesterday I played 50b, I aimed for the weakspots of enemy 705A and 60TP, couldn't pen. Then I loaded apcr shells and I penned my shots. Much skill, you see?

Your post has quite some flaws, but indeed the current concept of gold ammo is retrded. Just paying more credits for a superior shell is terrible, balance wise. However keep in mind that banning all gold ammo would be a massive buff for all Mauses, Type 5s and Russian tanks in general. And so is nerfing the alpha damage of gold rounds. It will be a buff for the well armoured tanks, since it will cost more time to kill them with lower alpha (and dpm). So is limiting the amount of gold shells a tank can carry.

Nerfing gold ammo might also push more people into artillery of TDs with big guns, that's not a good thing. It would be much better to give all tanks proper weaknesses. If you don't get what I mean go play tanks like 121 or E50M, and see how well those tanks perform against Chieftains, 430Us and other tanks that are basically invincible when hull down. Good game design, comrade. Also, the 'heavium' tanks in general are just too strong. Heavy-medium hybrid that is. Chieftain, 113, Wz-5a, 260, 277, 430U and such can go ±50kph, have good armor and have good guns. Where's the weakness? First of all they replace mediums, since they aren't much faster anymore but do have less armor. Their turrets are quite gold ammo-proof, so good luck dealing with them if they rush to hull down positions. Good game design, da. The 'old' heavy tanks like E100, IS-4 have big weaknesses: sluggish, low dpm, bad gun handling, vulnerable for gold ammo. The E50M, the OG 'heavium' or kinda well-armored medium has glaring weak spots and bad dpm, clear weaknesses that are real drawbacks on the battlefield. If one could point out the real weaknesses of the 430U, which btw is not much higher than just the hull of the E50M, that would be nice.

Tldr: if you are still here and don't get it or if you're just a lazy botch: balance of tanks and ammo will never happen.

Edited by fwhaatpiraat, 18 January 2020 - 08:35 AM.


Suurpolskija #14 Posted 18 January 2020 - 08:35 AM

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The few only-standard-ammo experiments I've read about and heard about have gone pretty well. So at least in these cases, it's the player, not the ammo. 

 

Then again, I wouldn't play a heavy tank at tier10 without a healthy amount of premium ammo. The simple fact is that the other tanks will probably shoot premium at you if you make your armor invulnerable to standard. The key is to use your armor to make it also immune to premium ammo. 

 

It's easier to dab 2 key than abandon a key position on the map and bugger off. 



Oldtanker68 #15 Posted 18 January 2020 - 08:51 AM

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View Postfwhaatpiraat, on 18 January 2020 - 08:32 AM, said:

I must be doing something wrong then. Not gonna lie, very often gold ammo is just plain superior, besides costing more and thus basically requiring a premium account. Yesterday I played 50b, I aimed for the weakspots of enemy 705A and 60TP, couldn't pen. Then I loaded apcr shells and I penned my shots. Much skill, you see?
 

 

I love those moments where i start of with standard ammo and get rewarded with a couple of bounces and the other guy removes half Your Health With Premium ammo.

 

I try to use standard ammo and hit weakspots as much as possible, but its regrettingly getting more and more easy to push "2" in this game.

 

 



TankkiPoju #16 Posted 18 January 2020 - 08:59 AM

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OPs favorite vehicle is M53/55. In this context, he certainly knows what is best for the game.

shikaka9 #17 Posted 18 January 2020 - 09:06 AM

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If you say its fair, not OP and balanced, so this is decision how to make this problem go away

 

Reduce it's price to Standard shell level, so even hardcore no-pay player can afford it to anythime anywhere.

 

And voila. And its not special anymore. Everyone uses, everyone is happy.

 

Plus its solves other problems:

Faster games (as WG wants)

Blocked damage missions removed from the game (happy players)

Less P2R players :hiding: (ye its not really good for WG money balance, but who cares they deserve it)

MM gets bit of balance (teams more equal than ever before existed in this game)

etc..

 

 

:honoring:

 

 



splash_time #18 Posted 18 January 2020 - 09:16 AM

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Gold ammo is a part of the game which is not gonna be removed anyway, deal with it.

And gold ammo is necessary because of all these Objs and crazy bobjects that can block your shells even from rear. 


Edited by splash_time, 18 January 2020 - 09:17 AM.


Cobra6 #19 Posted 18 January 2020 - 09:21 AM

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Premium ammo, instead of having been made available for credits, should have been removed entirely from the game.

 

It's impossible to properly balance armor for two vastly different penetration numbers.

 

- Either the armor becomes viable for the lowest number and insta-pen for the highest number.

*OR*

- It becomes viable/tricky for the highest number and impossible for the lowest number.

 

Example:

There is NO WAY to balance armor properly for both 250mm of pen AND 330mm of pen at the same time. It's simply not possible.

 

Cobra 6



Pansenmann #20 Posted 18 January 2020 - 09:36 AM

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View PostMrEdweird, on 17 January 2020 - 09:35 PM, said:

 

 

You don't magically get marks by sitting in the same spot and spamming prem rounds, it requires knowledge of maps and tanks, which is a trait of good players.

 

* unless we talk about some TD that statement is correct.

 

cheers!

Pansenmann






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