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Penetration stat is a lie ?


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murn123 #1 Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:06 PM

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Look at those penetration probabilities at type 5 heavy side armor at 50 meter range. Why does patriot tank (he calls it trump tank) have 10% lower probability to pen than tanks with the same penetration stat and ammo type like. t-100lt and amx 13 105. Why does panzerwagen light tank have such bad penetration probability compared to wz-132-1.

If your penetration is 1mm lower you get around 1% less probability to pen. And dont say this is some rng "luck". If that was true for 100 shots the t-100lt had +5% penetration probability and patriot had -5% penetration probability. That means after 100 shots t-100lt average penetration was 235mm and patriot's averge penetrtion was 225mm. That seems like huge variance for 100 shots. I mean that would be some extra terrible number generator.



ilmavarvas #2 Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:11 PM

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Git gud & rigged. 

Shacou #3 Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:15 PM

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shikaka9 #4 Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:24 PM

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rigged .. nothing else :)

Sir_Grzegorz #5 Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:25 PM

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I have no idea who this guy is, but had he just figured out that there are hidden stats in this game?

 

Point is valid that we would prefer to know everything, but that would made unicums even more unicum?



ilmavarvas #6 Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:36 PM

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View PostSir_Grzegorz, on 21 January 2020 - 12:25 PM, said:

I have no idea who this guy is, but had he just figured out that there are hidden stats in this game?

 

Point is valid that we would prefer to know everything, but that would made unicums even more unicum?

 

If WG would want to make some serious money, they should sell new premium account, could be called Unicum-Premium, 2x price but guaranteed +/-5 rng, instead of +/-25 that we mortal tomatoes get. 



Cobra6 #7 Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:42 PM

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APCR has a higher pen drop-off range compared to AP.

 

But that *REALLY* should not matter at 50m distance.

 

Fun fact, the T92 light tanks standard ammo is APCR which (unicum in the game) only suffers 2mm penetration drop over 500m making it basically HEAT ammo. Kind of cool.

 

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Homer_J #8 Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:03 PM

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Tanking with science?  Lest just hold down the fire Key and see how many penetrations we get at 400m.  Lets not worry about any other factors like aim reticule size or the fact that you won't have fully aimed again before the next shot.  Errmmm sorry, what science?

 

How is he testing dropoff with so many other variables?

 

He doesn't show how he does the 50m test but if it's anything like the 435m test then it's worse than useless.


Edited by Homer_J, 21 January 2020 - 01:09 PM.


samuelx43a #9 Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:12 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 21 January 2020 - 12:42 PM, said:

APCR has a higher pen drop-off range compared to AP.

 

But that *REALLY* should not matter at 50m distance.

 

Fun fact, the T92 light tanks standard ammo is APCR which (unicum in the game) only suffers 2mm penetration drop over 500m making it basically HEAT ammo. Kind of cool.

 

Cobra 6

ye, some shells have totally different values, even with the same gun. what is interesting is that the T92 is premium, so maybe they didn't nerf the pen drop off that all lights now have, apparently.

 

On topic though, it will help if you think about the pen values as the "average", much like how you do in statistics and probability. 



Homer_J #10 Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:14 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 21 January 2020 - 11:42 AM, said:

APCR has a higher pen drop-off range compared to AP.

 

But that *REALLY* should not matter at 50m distance.

 

That's not what it is testing though.  It's not really testing penetration at all, it's testing luck and I'm not sure 100 shots is enough to test luck with.  Where's Balders when you need him?



murn123 #11 Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:30 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 21 January 2020 - 01:03 PM, said:

Tanking with science?  Lest just hold down the fire Key and see how many penetrations we get at 400m.  Lets not worry about any other factors like aim reticule size or the fact that you won't have fully aimed again before the next shot.  Errmmm sorry, what science?

 

How is he testing dropoff with so many other variables?

 

He doesn't show how he does the 50m test but if it's anything like the 435m test then it's worse than useless.

I am talking about his test at 50 meters. Did you not read what I wrote. The numbers for 50m test are just ways off.



Homer_J #12 Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:38 PM

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View Postmurn123, on 21 January 2020 - 12:30 PM, said:

I am talking about his test at 50 meters. Did you not read what I wrote. The numbers for 50m test are just ways off.

 

Did you not read what I wrote.

 

View PostHomer_J, on 21 January 2020 - 12:03 PM, said:

 

He doesn't show how he does the 50m test but if it's anything like the 435m test then it's worse than useless.

 

For all we know he was hitting spaced armour and tracks a lot of the time.

 

He is not testing shots which hit the point he aims at, he just shoots wildly as fast as he can and tests how lucky he gets with the accuracy.



Homer_J #13 Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:53 PM

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View Postmurn123, on 21 January 2020 - 11:06 AM, said:

Why does patriot tank (he calls it trump tank) have 10% lower probability to pen than tanks with the same penetration stat and ammo type like. t-100lt and amx 13 105.

 

That can be explained here.

 

Paytriot has a higher ROF and worse aim time than T-100 LT so will miss more often.  AMX has a clip so every 3rd shot will be fully aimed, artificially boosting it's accuracy.

 

It's not a test of penetration at all.



murn123 #14 Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:57 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 21 January 2020 - 01:38 PM, said:

 

Did you not read what I wrote.

 

 

For all we know he was hitting spaced armour and tracks a lot of the time.

 

He is not testing shots which hit the point he aims at, he just shoots wildly as fast as he can and tests how lucky he gets with the accuracy.

Have you even watched the video??

What are you talking about. He shows type 5 heavy test at 17:40. He also explains that he is aiming at the flag on the turret.

Again what are you talking about he does not shoot wildly, that footage is speed up like crazy, since when does wz-132-1 shoot every second. Also if you actually watched the video you would know that he preemptively addressed exactly that point due to some friend telling him some myths about the game at 12:20. And look at that the penetration probability for bc-12t is almost identical. It did not matter meaning his shooting is superb. He also explains that he is selecting only hits, meaning misses due to bad accuracy are taken out.

View PostHomer_J, on 21 January 2020 - 01:53 PM, said:

 

That can be explained here.

 

Paytriot has a higher ROF and worse aim time than T-100 LT so will miss more often.  AMX has a clip so every 3rd shot will be fully aimed, artificially boosting it's accuracy.

 

It's not a test of penetration at all

Again wrong he preemptively addressed exactly that point at 12:20.

 

 

Please don't embarrass yourself like this when you can easily watch the video. I know you did not watch it, because there is no way you would make those kinds of comments.

 


Edited by murn123, 21 January 2020 - 02:09 PM.


Cobra6 #15 Posted 21 January 2020 - 02:30 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 21 January 2020 - 12:14 PM, said:

 

That's not what it is testing though.  It's not really testing penetration at all, it's testing luck and I'm not sure 100 shots is enough to test luck with.  Where's Balders when you need him?


Didn't watch the entire video but it normally does explain penetration discrepancies at range between AP and APCR.

 

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Homer_J #16 Posted 21 January 2020 - 02:42 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 21 January 2020 - 01:30 PM, said:


Didn't watch the entire video but it normally does explain penetration discrepancies at range between AP and APCR.

 

Cobra 6

 

You only need to wind it back to near the beginning and watch the "test" he does shooting at a target about half his reticule size to see the issue.



wsatnutter #17 Posted 21 January 2020 - 02:44 PM

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BR33K1_PAWAH #18 Posted 21 January 2020 - 03:16 PM

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Penetration stat is a cake  :hiding:

DuncaN_101 #19 Posted 21 January 2020 - 03:21 PM

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I thought cake was a lie... Now I don't know what to think anymore :(

Balc0ra #20 Posted 21 January 2020 - 03:28 PM

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View Postmurn123, on 21 January 2020 - 12:06 PM, said:

 That means after 100 shots t-100lt average penetration was 235mm and patriot's averge penetrtion was 225mm. That seems like huge variance for 100 shots. I mean that would be some extra terrible number generator.

 

When you have a 50% difference in pen at the most on a high and low pen. The variance will differ on the 100 next shots. Even with 50% chance to pen, you won't bounce 50% of the shots exactly pr 100 will it? As every single topic like this all boil down to the exact same thing. People expecting the % change to reflect the shots they get. But that's not how random works.

 

If you have a bowl of 200 M&M's. 50% blue and 50% red. You won't get 50/50 if you blind pick 100 will you? You can... but the odds of it are not great. Just as pens. As again... arcade game.

 

 

Then again we can bring up that slow-mo video of a tank shell spinning in the air. And how unstable it is. It did not fly straight. Thus the impact angle when it did reach armor could differentiate. Even so much that it could bounce right off and the next shot did pen. Much like here. Or the slow-mo 152mm shot at 10m that... missed.


Edited by Balc0ra, 21 January 2020 - 03:31 PM.





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