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Pay to win?


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SOROS_SCHWARTZ_GYORGY #1 Posted 24 January 2020 - 10:10 AM

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I am at work and therefore I have a lot of time on my hands to write a post like this. [removed]

It seems to me that there is a general consensus this game has became increasingly pay to win over time, and it that it became increasingly hard for a f2p player to play over time.

I believe that statement is false. I started playing in 2011, and remember quite well how it was back then.

 

While I agree that the tier 8 premiums which WG are releasing are increasingly powerful, and are indeed better than tech tree tanks, there are many other aspects which make it easier for the f2p player to play the game in 2020 than it was back in 2011-2012.

 

1) In those early years you could only get gold from CW, or by buying it.

Now you can get gold through frontlines and ranked too, 1-2-3k/season. Useful for demounting, but if you are patient, a decent player, and accumulate enough, you can even buy a premium tank from the tech tree from that. While most tech tree premiums are much worse than non-tech tree premiums, there are some decent tanks there (e.g. patriot, löwe, ELC even, t-54 prototype)

 

2) In those early years there were no tank marathons.

Period. The only way you could get a credit paying premium tank without paying money was to get the T34 which used to be a tier 9 heavy that was later changed into what it is now. If you had it in your garage, you received it as a premium, additionally you received M103 (which wasn't as bad of a tank back then as it is now).

There are marathons now, if you grind your [edited]off, you can get a tier 8 premium for free. If you don't want to or can't pay (e.g. you are still underaged and your parents won't buy you a prem tank) a dime, this can be a valid option for you.

 

3) In those early years there was no bonds shop.

You can buy a credit printing machine now for 8k bonds. Play ranked or frontline, and you will be able to afford a patriot. Lots of grind, but if you don't want to pay a dime, a valid option.

 

4) In those early years premium ammo was only available for gold.

Yes, probably a lot less was flying around back then, but as a f2p player you couldn't use it. I remember how I hated facing hordes of type 59-s (which was an OP tier 8 premium back then) in my IS with only 175 pen. If they angle that hull armor a little bit, you just can't pen.

 

5) In those early years there were no credit reserves.

You get those from various events now which definitely helps with grinding credits - usually the largest issue for f2p players.

 

6) In those early years there were no personal missions.

You can get loads of credits by completing missions, also premium days. Overall more than 2 months of premium if you are good. If you are smart, you complete the missions which give you premium right on a friday so you can grind your [edited]off on the weekend (if you work regular schedule, or still go to school).

 

7) In those early years premium consumables were only available for gold.

You can buy automatic extinguisher for 20k credits now, if you are smart, you buy it in advance for 10k. Believe me, it is much better than manual ones. It took me a while to get used to pressing 5 key to extuingish fire - even at my best efforts, I suffered at least 2 ticks of fire with those.

 

8) In those early years there were fewer events and they were much less generous.

Christmas event with credit boost? Piece of cake events such as tankrewards where you can get 3-7 days of premium just for playing a few battles every day?

Not even close. In those early years, we only had x3/x5 first victory events, (x4 became a thing much later), and during major celebrations like christmas we got 1 day of premium for free. That was about it.

 

So even if you are an f2p player, you can get:

- decent (altough not the most OP) tier 8 premiums without actually paying for it.

- premium days on the regular to help you grind credits (so that you can afford running tier 9 and 10 tanks and premium ammo)

- credit reserves on the regular to help you grind credits (see above)

 

You can argue that some of the current tier 8 premiums are indeed better than their tech tree equivalents, which really is an issue.

While that does make tier 8 pay to win, you can still jump in your tier 9 or tier 10 vehicles and stomp them. It would be a much larger issue if WG introduced buyable OP tier 10 tanks.

Also, in a way, it has been the case in the early days too, see type 59. While that tank is not so great anymore, back then its tech tree competition was the t-44, the pershing and the panther II. Just imagine that.

 

To add on top of that (and this is not about the pay2win topic anymore) the MM spread was 4 tiers. I remember being in the same battle with IS-3s in my A20, or meeting Maus in my M6 heavy. In those early years arty could oneshot you.

Sure there were no wheelies, progrettos, defenders (stone me, I am guilty of purchasing one too), obj 279 (e)-s and cheftains.  But believe me, overall, the game was much worse back then, it was more difficult for f2p players. I argue it was more pay to win too, because paying players had access to tools (gold ammo and consumables) which f2p players didn't have access to.

 

 

 

 


Edited by Homer_J, 25 January 2020 - 05:44 PM.
Impersonation


shikaka9 #2 Posted 24 January 2020 - 10:26 AM

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is this Abe Simpson story ? :teethhappy:

Edited by shikaka9, 24 January 2020 - 10:26 AM.


Zmago5000 #3 Posted 24 January 2020 - 10:36 AM

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View PostSOROS_SCHWARTZ_GYORGY, on 24 January 2020 - 10:10 AM, said:

..... [removed].....

 

EHM,.....:B



tajj7 #4 Posted 24 January 2020 - 10:42 AM

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The only pay to win things in the game are blatantly over performing premiums like the Defender. That is a vehicle that is behind a pay wall, that makes most players perform better than their skill level, thus it fits pay to win exactly. 

 

The rest of the pay to win stuff is largely whinging from people who want things easier, without putting in either the money/time/effort/skill. 

 

We have clear free to play players showing they can clearly do well on tier 10, with no premium ammo, and can afford to do that free to play. 

 

Of course those players are very highly skilled, if you are not as highly skilled then you either get better OR drop to a level where you can compete well and make profit, OR you put more time in to grind credits/marathons/frontline/Skirmishes etc. that allows you to afford tier 10 OR you put some money into the game.

 

What you actually see though is that many people want to play badly on tier 10 spamming premium consumables and premium ammo, without paying and then weirdly complain its unfair when they can't. 

 

The game is not designed to allow you to do that otherwise WG would struggle to make money and that is what premium time and premium tanks are for. 



mateyflip #5 Posted 24 January 2020 - 11:00 AM

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The OP chatting correct stuff there. I remember most of what they are going on about.

 

WP OP, and done in a constructive manner. 

 

Would like to know more about the agent part - but that's me being noisy :teethhappy:

 

What what

 

Ps - after writing all that you would have thought that the OP would have liked to see the replies. Maybe they have.


Edited by mateyflip, 24 January 2020 - 11:02 AM.


splash_time #6 Posted 24 January 2020 - 11:04 AM

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I started playing in 2018, and haven't spend a single coin on this game. And I managed to learn, reach and buy T10s with my skills. When I compare what older players say about the past and now? I just feel happy and understand that it's true that WG is doing some foolish moves sometimes, but it also true that they are trying hard to fix the game.

 

I managed to reach 1450 WN8, and still improving my skills (idc about WN8 tho but I like to see if I'm improving or not) without having any OP tanks. :D

I do suffer in training crews or starting with fresh crew, but overall? It's a good game until now. :)



SOROS_SCHWARTZ_GYORGY #7 Posted 24 January 2020 - 11:14 AM

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View Postmateyflip, on 24 January 2020 - 10:00 AM, said:

 

 

Would like to know more about the agent part 

 

:B

I would like to know more about the shrewd-mouse (?) profile pictures that are around this forum. 

For example, UrQuan has one, but I've seen others have them too. Is that some anime kind of thing, or does it have to do something with WoT?

 

Element6 too.


Edited by SOROS_SCHWARTZ_GYORGY, 24 January 2020 - 11:16 AM.


mateyflip #8 Posted 24 January 2020 - 11:24 AM

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View PostSOROS_SCHWARTZ_GYORGY, on 24 January 2020 - 10:14 AM, said:

:B

I would like to know more about the shrewd-mouse (?) profile pictures that are around this forum. 

For example, UrQuan has one, but I've seen others have them too. Is that some anime kind of thing, or does it have to do something with WoT?

 

Element6 too.

 

Fantastic! I'm totally lost now :).  You have a great day mate.

 

What what



Badz360 #9 Posted 24 January 2020 - 11:32 AM

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For me the game is 'Play to Win', but 'pay to progress faster'.

 

Apart from some individual tanks, most other stuff is available to all players, but at a slower rate to accumulate. Crew skills, bonds accumulated through playing, and premium ammo, equipment etc. all available for silver.

 

Who has the advantage? A Skorp G player with a noob crew and no 'Sixth Sense' (I use this example as I bought that tank and used it like that before I had a real clue how the game worked), or a free to play player with a Charioteer and 5-skill crew?


Edited by Badz360, 24 January 2020 - 11:34 AM.


Balc0ra #10 Posted 24 January 2020 - 01:54 PM

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View PostSOROS_SCHWARTZ_GYORGY, on 24 January 2020 - 10:10 AM, said:

To add on top of that (and this is not about the pay2win topic anymore) the MM spread was 4 tiers. I remember being in the same battle with IS-3s in my A20,

 

I actually miss the old days of my Luchs bullying Tiger II's and IS-3 and doing hit and runs on those to distract.



UrQuan #11 Posted 25 January 2020 - 11:41 AM

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View PostSOROS_SCHWARTZ_GYORGY, on 24 January 2020 - 11:14 AM, said:

:B

I would like to know more about the shrewd-mouse (?) profile pictures that are around this forum.

 

They're seals & they were made by Bowser_nl (Seal Avatars! ). Once in a while, other artists pop in & honour his legacy. What made the seals so popular was Bowser's creativity with it & attention to details.

 

Also you had cross team chat which could lead to some gems of chats:

When the enemy does not enter town with their toptier HT's, because you are there with your bottomtier HT:

I was so alone in town (old Fisherman's bay). No reds, no greens... The red HT's rather ran across the field into our TD's then face poor little me

 

Also: super-balanced MM (not)

If you think MM is unbalanced now, check how MM balanced this match (count the TX & T9 tanks on each side)

 

Looking back how it was, the game is less P2W nowadays, even regarding credit gain, as there's quite some events that generate extra credits. That said, some prem tanks are problematic as they do make engagements harder simply by being there.

Lucky skill can solve alot of things still. Harder against OP tanks, yet game knowledge can still be a great boon in those fights. 

 

Going smart with your expenses also helps, grinding one line helps your credit situation alot. I was a F2P player for a long time & never ran into credit issues. Got prem account now as I do enjoy the bonus (crew) XP & credits but I was self sufficient in credits long before I went prem account. The KV-4 used to be my moneymaker. Didn't earn as much as a prem tank sure, but the sheer games in it + my drive to improve in it more then compensated for it. Wanted to play KV-4 better, so I could play it more (better play -> more income due to better performance + less expenses due to less damage sustained & less shells missed/prem shells needed)


Edited by UrQuan, 25 January 2020 - 12:40 PM.


PowJay #12 Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:54 PM

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I think that there is a huge question mark over the advantage of OP, P2W Premium tanks. I have been unable to play a number of Premium vehicles even as well as I have their various tech-tree counterparts or similar vehicles. I have seen players do very well in "OP" tanks and players who do badly in the same vehicles. There are two players with garages full of Premium tanks who do frequent the forums, and both have (quite frankly) laughable stats.


A very good Premium tank gives an advantage in stats that it is never played stock, but poor crews- or poor skill selection/training- can still put these players at a disadvantage, and- of course- the key aspect to winning more than you lose is not the OP tank, but knowing where and when to go and how to confront the enemies so that you (generally) survive longer and more often than they do.

 

So, to other advantages of paying:

 

1. Faster grinds. So you don't have to play a vehicle stock, and can roll out with an upgraded vehicle sooner. This is great, but I see that a lot of players- with and without Premium tanks/time- rush to higher tiers without any statistical demonstration that they have learned anything at all. An idiot with a Premium account is an idiot who is at tier VIII to X with 2,000 games and a 43% WR. Running Premium to avoid tanks- or shorten the grind to the next vehicle- offers little advantage. I included converting XP from Elite/Premium tanks in this category of "P2W" as well.

 

2. Crew training. There are a number of ways that paying has an advantage- 100% crew training from new/transfer. Creating and converting Free XP to boost skills. Being able to afford crew books at liberty for boosting skills. Still and all, see the original point. A number of skills are genuinely useful and others are not. Also, having BIA will not make you a better player if you are redline camping and only seeing enemies when the battle is over (win or lose).

 

3. The ability to spam Premium ammo. This is, perhaps, a key advantage of having a lot of credits. You are able to afford to increase your Premium ammo loadout. Nonetheless, bad players at higher tiers- even with a Premium account-  will still struggle to make substantial profits if they are losing, dying, and spamming Premium ammo without actually doing any credible damage. Again, if you are a redline player you will still die and lose more often than you win- most likely.

 

Paying gives certain advantages that a free to play player will struggle with, but- with time- they can all be negated with patience and good play.

 

I currently have 49 prize and Premium tanks in my garage. Many are tier II and III gift tanks. Some have been received from Loot Boxes. Many are from tank marathons, or Tank Rewards, or are higher tier gifts such as the Super Hellcat and T-50-2. I don't really play most of them very much at all, either for crew training or for credit making. The most played, by a country mile, is the E25. The main reason is that I am good with it, and it is great for many mission types. Even as my most-played Premium vehicle, I still only have 439 battles in it, or just over 1%. My next most-played is the Churchill III which I have owned since 2013, and only has 388 battles.

 

I don't buy Premium time. I invested in Loot Boxes the last two years and pretty much have more than enough Gold that I shouldn't need to spend any this year, even if I want to. I had a big chunk (around four weeks) of Premium time both years, and I used this, with the festive bonuses, to boost my credits as much as possible for the coming year. At this moment, I have close to 39,500,000 credits.


 You can save credits by waiting for discounts. It also gives you time to play Elite vehicles for fun, Free XP, credits and crew training instead of simply jumping into the next tank that you can't play.


The sad truth is that many players who come here moaning about P2W are, quite frankly, losers. The fact that they can't even do tier IV levels of damage in their tier VIII vehicles clearly demonstrates their lack of ability, and yet they bring out the old argument about pay to win. Well, this is my Skorpion G with a four-skill female crew. Stick that in your P2W tail-pipe. That's 20 wins, to save you working it out. My Rhm B WT has 484 battles and 54.75% WR. I may just about hold my head above water with lost battles in the Skorpion, but I probably make at least as many credits overall with the Rhm B WT.


 



stingray379 #13 Posted 14 July 2020 - 08:26 AM

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Easy answer, try playing only with premium ammunition.
You WILL go bankrupt.

 



StronkiTonki #14 Posted 14 July 2020 - 09:01 AM

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The game is definitely a lot easier for f2p players compared to the past.

In some ways even too easy.

However, OP premium tanks still exist, and are pay to win.

Prem ammo, consumables and directives are all more easily accessible for paying players. Sure "everyone" can buy these things for credits, but the difference in credit earning between a f2p player and a paying player is big enough to still call it pay to win. Sure not as bad as restricting it for gold, but it's still pay to win in my eyes.

Even equipment could technically be called pay to win. Again, anyone can buy gun rammers etc, but a paying player will have a way easier time equipping their tanks all with equipment.

 

In my eyes, pay to win is gaining any kind of advantage from paying real money compared to if you would have not paid money.

If I made 2 new accounts:

-One without paying money, i'd have to play with a tier 1 tank without equipment, a 100% crew and probably without consumables. Maybe the small ones.

-One with paying money: I could convert gold into credits, buy full equipment on my tier 1 tank, buy crew books to give my crew 5 crew skills and run premium consumables like food and spam prem ammo right off the bat.

 

Clear as day that the account that I spent money on has an instant advantage right off the getgo. Which is pay to win imho.

Not saying all of these things are bad of course. I am not bothered by slight pay to win elements like this, and there's loads of ways to get free premium tanks, be it, lower tier ones. Boosters are given out generously etc as well.

I'm fine with most of the pay to win stuff. All I want is that all tanks, be it normal ones, reward tanks or prems, would all just be balanced properly. No OP tanks and no UP tanks. Oh an prem ammo shouldn't really be a thing, and tanks should have proper weakspots. Like I said, all balanced where even as a bottom tier you can still have a chance against higher tier tanks without anything like prem ammo.



PowJay #15 Posted 14 July 2020 - 11:50 AM

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View PostStronkiTonki, on 14 July 2020 - 08:01 AM, said:

The game is definitely a lot easier for f2p players compared to the past.

In some ways even too easy.

However, OP premium tanks still exist, and are pay to win.

Prem ammo, consumables and directives are all more easily accessible for paying players. Sure "everyone" can buy these things for credits, but the difference in credit earning between a f2p player and a paying player is big enough to still call it pay to win. Sure not as bad as restricting it for gold, but it's still pay to win in my eyes.

Even equipment could technically be called pay to win. Again, anyone can buy gun rammers etc, but a paying player will have a way easier time equipping their tanks all with equipment.

 

In my eyes, pay to win is gaining any kind of advantage from paying real money compared to if you would have not paid money.

If I made 2 new accounts:

-One without paying money, i'd have to play with a tier 1 tank without equipment, a 100% crew and probably without consumables. Maybe the small ones.

-One with paying money: I could convert gold into credits, buy full equipment on my tier 1 tank, buy crew books to give my crew 5 crew skills and run premium consumables like food and spam prem ammo right off the bat.

 

Clear as day that the account that I spent money on has an instant advantage right off the getgo. Which is pay to win imho.

Not saying all of these things are bad of course. I am not bothered by slight pay to win elements like this, and there's loads of ways to get free premium tanks, be it, lower tier ones. Boosters are given out generously etc as well.

I'm fine with most of the pay to win stuff. All I want is that all tanks, be it normal ones, reward tanks or prems, would all just be balanced properly. No OP tanks and no UP tanks. Oh an prem ammo shouldn't really be a thing, and tanks should have proper weakspots. Like I said, all balanced where even as a bottom tier you can still have a chance against higher tier tanks without anything like prem ammo.

For a good player to completely upgrade their vehicles and crew from the start by- for example- using a Premium vehicle to generate Free XP and using various methods to boost crew training would allow him to get to the higher tier tanks he wants more quickly and then play them upgraded.

 

For me to start again with a P2W account I wouldn't see the point. If I was really honest with myself then all I would do as a reroll is get as far as tier V at most and seal-club with Premium ammo and four-skill crews all day. It wouldn't be worth me paying to get to tier VIII just to suck all over again.

 

I only have ONE vehicle out of all of mine that is NOT Elite- but it is fully upgraded and played like that from the start (yesterday). The Panhard AMD 178B. Because- why not?


EVERY other vehicle of every tier is Elite and EVERY one has AT LEAST first skill complete. Many of the higher tiers are on two complete. 

 

I can't play them. 


Some days it does not matter what I do, I win. Others I lose. Often, I admit, I can be the best of a BAD team, but today I can't even manage that. 

 

I decided to play tier IX to get 20 and (possibly) 30 tokens today for Tank Rewards. Seven battles in and I had won two. Only TWO battles counted for Tank Rewards (top 10 on XP). One was a pathetic loss where my team must have been AWFUL for me to get into the top ten. The other was a draw where I did have over 2K HP damage in the T30.

 

For a complete break from top tiers I decided to drop down to tier IV and forego Battle Pass as well. I have played ten battles in my Marder 38T and my Hetzer (7 and 3) EVERY one counted for TR tokens and I have won five and two respectively.


I had an OK morning in the Marder 38T getting a High Calibre and Confederate in a tier V battle. I had Top Gun and Invader in the Hetzer at tier V and Top Gun in a III/IV battle with 3,295 HP damage and EIGHT kills. I HAD FUN!

 

I cannot translate any of that into higher tiers and it seems that many, many others can't- or don't even manage to do well in the low tiers. P2W is fallacy. Pay to progress is true enough and pay to spam Premium ammo is true enough, but pay to win? We all know players who simply cannot win no matter how much money they throw at the game. 



StronkiTonki #16 Posted 14 July 2020 - 08:21 PM

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View PostPowJay, on 14 July 2020 - 10:50 AM, said:

We all know players who simply cannot win no matter how much money they throw at the game. 

 

Yeah but that's not the point of "pay to win". At least from my perspective.

It is true that if a bad player could spend money on a game and instawin, the game would be pay to win. A very high level of pay to win in fact.

But even something as small as gaining a statistical advantage is also pay to win in my eyes.

 

A lot of people take the phrase "pay to win" in a literal sense: You pay, so that you win. So if paying does not result in an instant win, it's not pay to win.

But I see it as: You pay, so that you can win easier. A guaranteed win being the easiest way to win. However, not guaranteeing a win, but still having an easier time to win compared to a free to play player, is still pay to win in my eyes. It's just not as easy to win like a guaranteed win.

 

If I could make 2 exact clones of myself, one plays on a new free to play account, and the other plays on a new account with unlimited money to spend, I guarantee you that the account with the money to spend will get a higher win rate, because he will have access to premium consumables like food, crew books for better crews, equipment and prem ammo.


Edited by StronkiTonki, 14 July 2020 - 08:27 PM.


p6kk #17 Posted 14 July 2020 - 08:27 PM

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wot is pure pay2win game, number one the world. u pay and u win games. I haven't seen another game where for money (shoot gold ammo) you can beat other players.

Edited by p6kk, 14 July 2020 - 08:28 PM.


Bucifel #18 Posted 14 July 2020 - 08:42 PM

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View PostStronkiTonki, on 14 July 2020 - 08:21 PM, said:

 

Yeah but that's not the point of "pay to win". At least from my perspective.

It is true that if a bad player could spend money on a game and instawin, the game would be pay to win. A very high level of pay to win in fact.

But even something as small as gaining a statistical advantage is also pay to win in my eyes.

 

A lot of people take the phrase "pay to win" in a literal sense: You pay, so that you win. So if paying does not result in an instant win, it's not pay to win.

But I see it as: You pay, so that you can win easier. A guaranteed win being the easiest way to win. However, not guaranteeing a win, but still having an easier time to win compared to a free to play player, is still pay to win in my eyes. It's just not as easy to win like a guaranteed win.

 

If I could make 2 exact clones of myself, one plays on a new free to play account, and the other plays on a new account with unlimited money to spend, I guarantee you that the account with the money to spend will get a higher win rate, because he will have access to premium consumables like food, crew books for better crews, equipment and prem ammo.

finally someone lucid and healthy on his mind here...

 

the p2w concept misery is misunderstood by most players here unfortunately...

it's not about winning more games directly...but about winning everything else what in the end helps you to win the game, win your chances if you pay !

 

most relevant and common example : ammo misery

with standard against some tanks you have close to 0 chances

IF YOU PAY, you have good chances

 

good chances are always > than close to 0 chances

 

that translated, you pay - you win more ! Not guaranteed (because you can meet another gold user too! ) but forsure more than the standard "close to 0" player.

And yes, you need to pay this, because you can't afford it in other way as a normal player.

:facepalm:



Warzey #19 Posted 14 July 2020 - 09:39 PM

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Why are some people under impression that players with premium tank/account can just fire full gold ammo 24/7 and free to play players can't afford more than 2 shells per week?!

 

I can say from personal experience that worrying about credit income while playing is a terrible way to play. Just use everything at your disposal in given situation and worry about credits later. There are ways to earn credits without shelling out to WG. 

 



Japualtah #20 Posted 14 July 2020 - 09:44 PM

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Why would you play for free?

 

Stop leeching and contribute, there is no pride in being a cheapskate.






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