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Thoughts after 2 hours in sandbox


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_Anarchistic_ #1 Posted 13 February 2020 - 04:24 AM

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overall, just no.  This is a hugely complicated non solution to the issues WG is 'trying' to address but I feel they will achieve the opposite and I will say why.

 

Arty, HE, HESH, HEP  

 

the changes being proposed will mean that arty is having a big buff, especially with the bigger splash radius and now it is averaging far more damage than HE/HESH based tanks like Shitbarn which in this proposal is now useless.  ONLY the KV2 is being left alone.  

I feel that removing the HE pen without giving it a new mechanic is flawed.  I accept that HE/HESH/HEP ammo works differently to APCR etc so it needs a properly designed game mechanic to reflect this, an overmatch style probably best fit, but under the current testing the changes fail totally.

Also hull down tanks like the Chieftan will be even more OP without an HE based shell that can seriously pressure them and stop them just taking the mick.

 

So I think if WG wants to change HE it needs to make a new HE mechanic so that it can become realistic.  For example a Panther tank with its sloped armour was more effective than a Tiger 1 tank verses ammunition based on penetrating the tank, because although its armour was thinner its sloping added effectiveness, however tanks like the Tiger 1 and Ferdinand with their thicker but less sloped armour were more effective versus HE shells, indeed the Russians developed a special HE shell to deal with these tanks.  I propose a kinetic weight calculation to see if the HE shell can break the armour, similar to a tennis ball bouncing off a pane of glass but a brick smashing it.

 

Gold Ammo

 

Although this MIGHT make players think about changing their load out from full gold I am not convinced.  The reason is simple, buffing the damage on standard ammo makes no difference if you cannot pen anything and I am suspicious this is just another money grab.  Also going back to arty a second WG say they want 3 types of ammo to be used in different circumstances, so why not try a similar ammo rework?

 

so, balance armour the old fashioned way, against std ammo instead of against gold ammo and have the different types of ammo have different properties

Std ammo is a base line good pen, good damage, good speed, loses pen over range, needs a bit of aiming and has a trajectory that might require thinking when aiming at long range

APCR is a higher pen ammo, faster, flatter trajectory but lower damage as a subcalibre and less accurate at long range  higher cost

HEAT  has slightly higher pen, much slower speed and higher trajectory requiring more aim. does not lose pen over range but has real problems with spaced armour, tracks etc  higher cost

HE/HESH/HEP as in  previous comment

 

this gives a more varied ammo than current game play 

 

Now I might be guilty here of making the same mistake as WG and creating a complicated answer to a simple question, but as WG will not just remove arty, or balance tanks properly I thought these might be worth suggesting as an attempt to offer a positive idea rather than just complain

 

edit   forgot, buffing HP and all the changes in sandbox will be hugely risky and from my quick go on the sandbox probably not worth the risk and certainly not all at once and overall I would abandon the HE changes instantly

 

 


Edited by _Anarchistic_, 13 February 2020 - 04:26 AM.


1ucky #2 Posted 13 February 2020 - 05:21 AM

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Thanks for taking one for the team. :)

Marcus_Helius #3 Posted 13 February 2020 - 05:35 AM

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I agree with your idea for ammo types apart from accuracy changing.
The only values that should change with ammo are PENETRATION, DAMAGE and VELOCITY.

_Anarchistic_ #4 Posted 13 February 2020 - 06:41 AM

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just one extra thought I did not add

 

at he moment HE against tanks that have no armour (eg grille) is effective, in the sandbox it is not effective because of the removal of the penetration, this makes absolutely no sense at all and needs to be totally abandoned because this is totally removing the usefulness of HE ammo

 

honestly the more I think about the changes to HE being tested the  less sense they make



Marcus_Helius #5 Posted 13 February 2020 - 07:17 AM

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Seems AP all the way then... it does the most damage...
Maybe some APCR for trying to kill a hull down heavy in a choke point, but otherwise HE is totally useless...

Slyspy #6 Posted 13 February 2020 - 10:03 AM

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View Post_Anarchistic_, on 13 February 2020 - 06:41 AM, said:

just one extra thought I did not add

 

at he moment HE against tanks that have no armour (eg grille) is effective, in the sandbox it is not effective because of the removal of the penetration, this makes absolutely no sense at all and needs to be totally abandoned because this is totally removing the usefulness of HE ammo

 

honestly the more I think about the changes to HE being tested the  less sense they make

 

Personally I've always thought that HE should have zero penetration, relying simply on the blast damage. And not only because I own a CDC!



_Anarchistic_ #7 Posted 13 February 2020 - 10:18 AM

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View PostSlyspy, on 13 February 2020 - 10:03 AM, said:

 

Personally I've always thought that HE should have zero penetration, relying simply on the blast damage. And not only because I own a CDC!


whilst I except that pen is a bad mechanic re HE there needs to be some kind of replacement as the simple removal of the pen but the continued use of the following damage calculations makes the whole thing stupidly useless, especially as KV2 keeps the pen mechanic

 

HE works by destroying armour (or anything else !!), that's why HESH is so popular and why we always had it  breech loaded when I served in the British Army forces, its works against anything whereas other ammos are not always correct, eg APDS can over pen and go right though a lightly armoured vehicle leaving it still combat effective



Flicka #8 Posted 13 February 2020 - 10:18 AM

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Funny how some other players that tested out arty much more on the sandbox see the update as a clear nerf to artillery.

 

They do less dmg with shells that are the most common, or do more dmg without the stun for a shitload more cash.

Making art the most defective vehicle financially.

 

And if you can not penetrate a tank, did you ever try making that tank come a bit out of position to be able to pen him.

Or is there a problem with him just standing in that 1 position in a stalemate?



Homer_J #9 Posted 13 February 2020 - 10:21 AM

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View Post_Anarchistic_, on 13 February 2020 - 09:18 AM, said:


whilst I except that pen is a bad mechanic re HE there needs to be some kind of replacement as the simple removal of the pen but the continued use of the following damage calculations makes the whole thing stupidly useless,

 

And that's why they changed the damage calculations.



_Anarchistic_ #10 Posted 13 February 2020 - 10:27 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 13 February 2020 - 10:21 AM, said:

 

And that's why they changed the damage calculations.


really?  I missed that when reading the patch note, can you point me in the right direction please



Homer_J #11 Posted 13 February 2020 - 10:37 AM

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View Post_Anarchistic_, on 13 February 2020 - 09:27 AM, said:


really?  I missed that when reading the patch note, can you point me in the right direction please

 

If you go back to the last sandbox announcement.

 

They cut alpha, removed pen, removed the 50% reduction in alpha for a non penetrating hit, and then added some complicated 3 way damage formula I forget the exact details of.

 

Details here


Edited by Homer_J, 13 February 2020 - 10:39 AM.


FatigueGalaxy #12 Posted 13 February 2020 - 11:45 AM

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View Post_Anarchistic_, on 13 February 2020 - 04:24 AM, said:

 

 

the changes being proposed will mean that arty is having a big buff, especially with the bigger splash radius and now it is averaging far more damage

 

Sorry, but what?

Standard HE for arty remains unchanged while everybody has 10-20% more HP so effectively it's a DPM nerf.

Premium HE has higher damage and +1 m of splash while everybody has 10-20% more HP so effectively you keep the same DPM as you have now BUT there is no stun and you usually do as much stun damage as normal damage on live server (higher tiers) and you get 25% of XP for it (same as tracking) so it's worse than standard HE now but you have to pay premium price for it (p2w).

AP/HEAT are useless because you can splash tanks with premium HE for nearly the same damage and there is no need to hit and penetrate (p2w).

 

And remember that arty still has penetrating HE shells that use old mechanics and it's still not sure if they will change it. If they will, then arty's damage will go down even more because with new HE you have to hit weakspots/weak armour to do listed damage (which is basically a half of the current damage).

 

If you want arty dead, then you should be happy with those changes. They will either do 20% less damage, same damage but with no stun or similar damage to a tank with 105 mm gun - maybe with 1 of 3 shots that have 30+ s reload...



SirTogII #13 Posted 13 February 2020 - 12:10 PM

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Spent about the same time trying stuff out and I think they’re pretty much accomplishing what they set out to do. Way less gold and HE spam. A buff to high pen paper meds like Leo and slow super heavies. Nerf to the wheelies and hesh tanks in general. All in all there’s no huge difference tbh but players now have the incentive to consider what ammo type to use rather than press 2 twice, and perhaps even consider using mobility to find better angles.
It’s not a night and day change in general and the toys out of pram drama ppl can relax. Fv4005 is dead but that’s about it.




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