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Answer Me This Question About Premium Tanks Legal Protection


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TungstenHitman #1 Posted 14 February 2020 - 10:46 PM

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Hi guys, not a rant or another "HE change" thread it's just a question relating to altering premium tanks and their ammo damage values in general. Basically what I want to know is how is it ok for WG to alter one ammo type and apparently not the other? In other wards, why is it apparently NOT ok for WG to change premium ammo values but it is ok for them to change all other types? If this is a legal matter, consumer law, then why only does it apply to premium ammo values and not all of them? What's the difference here?

 

There must be something legally binding because it was when you factor messing up players stats with new hp values and altering pretty much everything in the game other than premium ammo, clearly it's far more easy to simply nerf premium ammo 20% rather than having to go to far greater effort of altering everything else. But what's the difference here? How is changing everything else not infringing on whatever legal status prevents WG from touching premium ammo values? Perhaps they could have altered premium ammo values all along if they really wanted too and this just coincidentally wasn't part of their grand plan which makes it appear as though there's some legal protection which prevents them from doing so? 



Balc0ra #2 Posted 14 February 2020 - 10:58 PM

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I suspect they are testing the water on that thing tbh considering the differences. Now most of the HE changes are a mechanic change. So that will affect everyone regardless. But the alpha reduction is a nerf. And on some prems like the EBR 75. The high HE alpha is an aspect they did advertise when selling it, and a reason why some bought it. You can search for all the KV-5 topics when they wanted to nerf that. As that did spark a few legal discussions regarding it.

 

 

 

 

 



callum347 #3 Posted 14 February 2020 - 10:58 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 14 February 2020 - 09:46 PM, said:

Hi guys, not a rant or another "HE change" thread it's just a question relating to altering premium tanks and their ammo damage values in general. Basically what I want to know is how is it ok for WG to alter one ammo type and apparently not the other? In other wards, why is it apparently NOT ok for WG to change premium ammo values but it is ok for them to change all other types? If this is a legal matter, consumer law, then why only does it apply to premium ammo values and not all of them? What's the difference here?

 

There must be something legally binding because it was when you factor messing up players stats with new hp values and altering pretty much everything in the game other than premium ammo, clearly it's far more easy to simply nerf premium ammo 20% rather than having to go to far greater effort of altering everything else. But what's the difference here? How is changing everything else not infringing on whatever legal status prevents WG from touching premium ammo values? Perhaps they could have altered premium ammo values all along if they really wanted too and this just coincidentally wasn't part of their grand plan which makes it appear as though there's some legal protection which prevents them from doing so? 

 

If you nerf premium ammo damage, then you buff every tank with armour, all they need to do is simply have a %% of premium ammo as a maximum you can carry in your tank, they are over-complicating a simple solution, buffing HP + increasing standard rounds will like you say mess up some stats, and also will feel like learning the game again when you don't know the new damage values



BravelyRanAway #4 Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:02 PM

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You bought a premium tank without the ammo loaded. The tank is still the same...but you choose to load the ammo....or not.

Element6 #5 Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:03 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 14 February 2020 - 10:46 PM, said:

Hi guys, not a rant or another "HE change" thread it's just a question relating to altering premium tanks and their ammo damage values in general. Basically what I want to know is how is it ok for WG to alter one ammo type and apparently not the other? In other wards, why is it apparently NOT ok for WG to change premium ammo values but it is ok for them to change all other types? If this is a legal matter, consumer law, then why only does it apply to premium ammo values and not all of them? What's the difference here?

 

There must be something legally binding because it was when you factor messing up players stats with new hp values and altering pretty much everything in the game other than premium ammo, clearly it's far more easy to simply nerf premium ammo 20% rather than having to go to far greater effort of altering everything else. But what's the difference here? How is changing everything else not infringing on whatever legal status prevents WG from touching premium ammo values? Perhaps they could have altered premium ammo values all along if they really wanted too and this just coincidentally wasn't part of their grand plan which makes it appear as though there's some legal protection which prevents them from doing so? 

Unless they have changed the EULA, they can terminate your account for any reason, or no reason, without even having to notify you. I would be very surprised if anything could stop them from doing anything they please, given that we sing this thing when we install the game and start it. So I doubt there is any legal binding at play here.

 

Have you not learned that when WG says something, you get the distinct feeling they are only telling you a fraction of what is really their plan?



Balc0ra #6 Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:09 PM

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View Postcallum347, on 14 February 2020 - 10:58 PM, said:

 

If you nerf premium ammo damage, then you buff every tank with armour

 

See. None of the tanks have gotten their premium ammo nerfed. All the premium tanks have the same alpha and pen as they do now. It's the normal ammo that got an alpha buff instead. That did cause some like the SU-100Y, that had a gun with less gold ammo pen as is, as he only got more alpha then. To have less pen and alpha on the gold AP.

 

View PostBravelyRanAway, on 14 February 2020 - 11:02 PM, said:

You bought a premium tank without the ammo loaded. The tank is still the same...but you choose to load the ammo....or not.

 

True. But even with no ammo loaded. The stats changes from one patch to the next on the gun module. Even if you choose not to use that ammo. It's still worse off vs the last time you could have used it. As per the point.


Edited by Balc0ra, 14 February 2020 - 11:12 PM.


NekoPuffer_PPP #7 Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:19 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 14 February 2020 - 11:09 PM, said:

That did cause some like the SU-100Y, that had a gun with less gold ammo pen as is, as he only got more alpha then. To have less pen and alpha on the gold AP.

 

...so you're saying, someone went and changed the standard ammo on the SU-100Y, giving it higher damage and pen than premium ammo, and thought "Yes, that's right. That's correct. Nothing wrong here. Job done."

 



Spammable_Lecter #8 Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:40 PM

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Here in Ireland any "Digital Goods bought cannot be changed without offering a REFUND in total " . It has been protected by law for years . 

To the naysayers saying good luck with that . Straight up WG will have no choice as well as losing all credibility by their own paying playerbase .  Don't get me wrong , they can change it but offering "GOLD/CREDITS" is a non starter .  It will have to be a Full cash refund if you bought it for cash.

 



Element6 #9 Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:58 PM

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View PostSteel_Patriot, on 14 February 2020 - 11:40 PM, said:

Here in Ireland any "Digital Goods bought cannot be changed without offering a REFUND in total " . It has been protected by law for years . 

To the naysayers saying good luck with that . Straight up WG will have no choice as well as losing all credibility by their own paying playerbase .  Don't get me wrong , they can change it but offering "GOLD/CREDITS" is a non starter .  It will have to be a Full cash refund if you bought it for cash.

Source?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



TungstenHitman #10 Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:04 AM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 14 February 2020 - 10:02 PM, said:

You bought a premium tank without the ammo loaded. The tank is still the same...but you choose to load the ammo....or not.

 

No I get that and you're not following my question. If ammo is considered a separate entity from the premium vehicle itself, then why not simply nerf premium ammo 20% instead of going to all this trouble, since premium ammo is still  just an ammo type and not the tank itself?

 

When you factor that WG are changing the HP of the premium tank, albeit a positive buff, they are STILL directly altering the purchased product and doing so without customer consent, and yet while this is far more "guilty" of infringing on consumable rights than altering ammo which is a separate consumable to the tank, this is what WG have found to be legally more acceptable than simply nerfing a consumable? I don't get it. I also have to reflect on when WG offered full refunds for the proposed change of certain pref MM premium tanks to a standard MM status. So why are the required to offer full refunds for altering pref MM tanks and not for altering the original HP of a premium tank, a separate matter to altering the ammo consumables? How is altering a set of parameters on a purchased product acceptable, regardless of a it being a positive change via increased hp? Surely this is still changing a sold product without permission or refund alternative they must be obliged to offer or else why did they offer a full refund to pref MM premiums that were going to be altered albeit in a different way?



Nishi_Kinuyo #11 Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:31 AM

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Afaik, there is no such thing as "premium" ammo anymore.

Not since they removed the gold cost from it.

And since there is as such no monetary value to it, it should not fall under customer protection laws.

 

So imo, people have no right to whine if it gets balanced.



Strappster #12 Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:45 AM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 14 February 2020 - 11:04 PM, said:

I also have to reflect on when WG offered full refunds for the proposed change of certain pref MM premium tanks to a standard MM status.

 

As I remember it, they didn't offer any refunds. The proposal was to buff tier 8 PMM tanks to cope with standard matchmaking and remove PMM to improve the MM functionality. It was abandoned after a large part of the playerbase responded by stating that this was a material change to an advertised feature of the tanks they'd bought and that they'd seek refunds.

 

Increasing the damage of standard shells is an interesting change. It's effectively a buff, which implies the removal of HE penetration has been evaluated as the lowest cause for complaint. Most tanks only carry a few HE rounds for resetting the cap so it's not as though most players would notice it (and therefore ask for refunds). The strength of the wheelies comes from their mobility more than their HE shells and I suspect the few players who'd demand a refund for their premium wheelie on the basis that one shell type has changed has been factored into the analysis.

 

View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 14 February 2020 - 11:31 PM, said:

Afaik, there is no such thing as "premium" ammo anymore.

Not since they removed the gold cost from it.

And since there is as such no monetary value to it, it should not fall under customer protection laws.

 

You're not wrong but the argument being made is that a tank is sold with given statistics - penetration values for each type of ammo. Changing the penetration is therefore a change to the parameters of the tank, how the ammo is purchased in game is immaterial to that.



callum347 #13 Posted 15 February 2020 - 01:22 AM

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View Postcallum347, on 14 February 2020 - 09:58 PM, said:

 

If you nerf premium ammo damage, then you buff every tank with armour

 

View PostBalc0ra, on 14 February 2020 - 10:09 PM, said:

 

See. None of the tanks have gotten their premium ammo nerfed. All the premium tanks have the same alpha and pen as they do now. It's the normal ammo that got an alpha buff instead. That did cause some like the SU-100Y, that had a gun with less gold ammo pen as is, as he only got more alpha then. To have less pen and alpha on the gold AP.

 

I'm not suggesting they reduce premium damage, I am saying it is a bad idea, along with they have currently tested, as I said, my suggestion is to just put a percentage cap like 40% prem ammo max or something, 

 



Overlord93 #14 Posted 15 February 2020 - 01:26 AM

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They probably had HP rework in mind for a long time and packaged it with prem ammo "nerf"

NUKLEAR_SLUG #15 Posted 15 February 2020 - 01:51 AM

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View Postcallum347, on 15 February 2020 - 01:22 AM, said:

I'm not suggesting they reduce premium damage, I am saying it is a bad idea, along with they have currently tested, as I said, my suggestion is to just put a percentage cap like 40% prem ammo max or something, 

 

You can go ahead and do that, but every time you're out with a tank that is hard to pen the enemy team will just dig into their 40% supply and plaster you in gold. So how has doing that changed your experience? 



jack_timber #16 Posted 15 February 2020 - 01:52 AM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 14 February 2020 - 10:02 PM, said:

You bought a premium tank without the ammo loaded. The tank is still the same...but you choose to load the ammo....or not.

Ere Bravely is your day job a lawyer by chance? :)



mtnm #17 Posted 15 February 2020 - 06:21 AM

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1. (Less likely) If someone will take WG to court and a judge orders an audit then it might be revealed that gold ammo was sustained by real money spending, hence they try to avoid a direct numerical change of a payed service.

 

2. (More likely) Because of a psychological reason: the average player does'nt know the health values of other tanks but he does know the damage value of his precious gold ammo. Less people noticing the nerf = less angry customers.



gitgud_cannot #18 Posted 15 February 2020 - 07:19 AM

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Even if they change the tank, you cant do anything as i thing they have changed the terms on which you are purchasing in-game items. You are only renting stuff, which can be changed at any given moment.

Edited by gitgud_cannot, 15 February 2020 - 07:19 AM.


snowlywhite #19 Posted 15 February 2020 - 07:41 AM

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legal protection? None.

 

it's WG marketing trying to convince you there's a legal protection and that's why they can't nerf OP tanks. But it's total [edited]. It's written in that eula that they can make changes at anytime for the "good of the game"(or some assorted crap).

 

I suppose that if you have nothing better to do with your time and actually make a complain to your whatever national consumer body you have... normally they should refund you. I mean, it's much cheaper for them to do so. And they know 99% of the player base won't bother. Ok, if you actually bought stuff for a couple of thousands or something, than maybe they'd fight. Though even then...

 

anyway, as far as know the eu directive regarding refunds(you know, you can get a refund in the 1st 2 weeks no questions asked) specifically excludes digital goods.

 

I mean, think logically: how could a parliament write a law that basically says ingame digital content cannot ever be changed? You bought something 5 years ago and now you want your money back? Really; how could such a stupidity ever be written in a law?



RaxipIx #20 Posted 15 February 2020 - 08:54 AM

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Digital content to be as described

(1)Every contract to supply digital content is to be treated as including a term that the digital content will match any description of it given by the trader to the consumer.

(2)Where the consumer examines a trial version before the contract is made, it is not sufficient that the digital content matches (or is better than) the trial version if the digital content does not also match any description of it given by the trader to the consumer.

(3)Any information that is provided by the trader about the digital content that is information mentioned in paragraph (a), (j) or (k) of Schedule 1 or paragraph (a), (v) or (w) of Schedule 2 (main characteristics, functionality and compatibility) to the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (SI 2013/3134) is to be treated as included as a term of the contract.

(4)A change to any of that information, made before entering into the contract or later, is not effective unless expressly agreed between the consumer and the trader.

(5)See section 42 for a consumer’s rights if the trader is in breach of a term that this section requires to be treated as included in a contract.

 

 

 

This is a paragraph from EU's consumer rights act. 2015.


Edited by RaxipIx, 15 February 2020 - 08:57 AM.





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