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OnTheVerge #1 Posted 20 February 2020 - 02:35 AM

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I want to ask a question that has been on everyone's mind since day one of this game:


Why are the devs not sincere, and why are so many of the game's mechanics hidden?

For example: gun dispersion values. Without data miners we wouldn't know about these crucial values that define how the tank works, and how it should be played.

Why are some changes introduced, and others are not?

What are the probabilities, the spread, and chances of basically all of the game mechanics, from firing shells, to which blueprints you get when you get them?

 

To me it seems that since the big european union privacy laws were set in place, along with a ton of backlash tech giants got from their shady practices, the big companies started at least trying to be transparent about their practices, especially those directly impacting you, the consumer. Many small firms have gotten a market share from basically doing what everyone else does, but being sincere about it.

Many developers have changed in the past 10 or so years, and changes to the game meta & balance are openly discussed, and even when the community has no say it, at least everyone is aware of everything.

 

I don't understand why Wargaming refuses this model, when it is clearly making the game worse, and alienating a lot of players.

 

Here is my advice to Wargaming, from a personal, subjective perspective:

I play games so I can feel good. I feel good when presented with a challenge, that I through self-improvement overcome. I can't always win, as this is a multiplayer game. So it has to be fair, for an average player to have fun, when they fail or die, it should be because of their own fault, the enemies clear superiority, or the combination of the two. NOT because of pure chance. Example: My team is getting stomped, and I'm in my Skorpion, knowing I can't win, so I only want to farm some damage, to make the game worthwhile. An enemy comes out in the open, and thinking they are unspotted, they halt and take their time to aim. I am preaimed, and I fire. The shell dips, like it has so many times before. I fire again, it dips. On my fifth shot, after almost contemplating alt-f4-ing out of the game, I finally hit the 431 HP Pantera. And my hit low-rolls, so the enemy survives on less than 10 hp.

 

I feel like I did everything in my power to make the first, and every subsequent shot work. The enemy was rather close (350 meters or so), I was fully aimed, The enemy was completely exposed, and was not moving. After this happening (and similar things happen always, many times throughout the day), I was obviously upset, because I feel powerless, and not because I failed, not because enemy was outplaying me, but because my success depended on some random process that I don't even know the exact parameters of.

We don't even get actual data of the RNG that Wargaming uses

 

While many gaming and tech companies are becoming transparent and honest about their practices, Wargaming seems stuck in the soviet era of secrecy, uncertainty, and perpetual exploitation of the people.

BE HONEST. TELL US THE EXACT VALUES OF EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS, SO THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND THE GAME AND HOW TO PLAY IT.

There is no reason to do so, unless wargaming is doing something really shady, that would seriously jeopardize their business model if revealed. This could be a lot of things, but the most obvious one that everyone also talks about is: match rigging for various purposes. When you get a new tank (premium or normal, doesn't matter), you are never bottom tier the first game you play. What if you also win more when you spend money? Or when you have a premium account?


Does the sigma value differ from tank to tank?

What are the parameters of the RNG & how are shots, armor penetration and damage EXACTLY calculated.

Why are some changes introduced, while others are delayed?

Why is there not enough focus on the things that players are most vocal about?

Why isn't there skill balance in matchmaking (similar skill distribution, not skill based mm)?

Why are games getting more and more frustrating, and all you seem to do is make things worse with every change?

Why have some long-standing issues been consistently ignored, while others get fixed immediately?

What is the vision Wargaming has for the future of the game, what is there to look forward to?

 

The last question is really the second thing I want to talk about:

Tons of people (me included) spend tons of money on this game. I want to know how the game will change, so that I know if I should spend money or not. I don't want to invest time and money into something that I'm going to hate in a month or two. The game is already at the point when it's extremely frustrating to play 90% of the time, and the only reason I re-installed it is because of the ammo, and artillery changes. But they scraped that, and its going to take them half a year to come up with a new solution.

 

This used to be a game I loved, and now, when I'm at my best point (best performance), have many of the vehicles I always wanted (tier X and premiums both), with enough time to play the way I want to, and enough money to spend on further improving the experience, I find myself hating the game any time I play. I don't want that, I want to enjoy the game, and I want to keep playing it.

 

But the current situation is the worst it has ever been, and the only silver lining there was, was for unknown reasons removed. 

I am just a small player, and if the situation doesn't change drastically for the better, I'll just cut my losses, and quit. But I seriously expect massive liability lawsuits when the game starts spiraling down. So many people spent their money on this, but their investments have been made worthless by poor decision making, & now they want what they agreed on with the ToS- in-game goods they paid for. How are they going to keep receiving that when enough players quit so that WG can't pay for their serves, or that there aren't enough players for the matchmaker to create games?

 

I hope wargaming stops shooting themselves in the foot, and turn over a new leaf, otherwise heads will roll, and nobody will end up happy or satisfied in the end.



Spurtung #2 Posted 20 February 2020 - 04:08 AM

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View PostOnTheVerge, on 20 February 2020 - 01:35 AM, said:

I play games so I can feel good. I feel good when presented with a challenge, that I through self-improvement overcome. I can't always win, as this is a multiplayer game. So it has to be fair, for an average player to have fun, when they fail or die, it should be because of their own fault, the enemies clear superiority, or the combination of the two. NOT because of pure chance. Example: My team is getting stomped, and I'm in my Skorpion, knowing I can't win, so I only want to farm some damage, to make the game worthwhile. An enemy comes out in the open, and thinking they are unspotted, they halt and take their time to aim. I am preaimed, and I fire. The shell dips, like it has so many times before. I fire again, it dips. On my fifth shot, after almost contemplating alt-f4-ing out of the game, I finally hit the 431 HP Pantera. And my hit low-rolls, so the enemy survives on less than 10 hp.

 

I feel like I did everything in my power to make the first, and every subsequent shot work. The enemy was rather close (350 meters or so), I was fully aimed, The enemy was completely exposed, and was not moving. After this happening (and similar things happen always, many times throughout the day), I was obviously upset, because I feel powerless, and not because I failed, not because enemy was outplaying me, but because my success depended on some random process that I don't even know the exact parameters of.

 

I've highlighted some bits of this particular passage to ask you a very simple question:

Would you call self-improvement to learning, by experience, that the shells of a particular tank tends to dip and that you should aim higher to counter that tendency?

 

Because, if you are analytical about it, you did "fail because of your own fault" and you certainly did not do "everything in your power" to change the outcome you were getting.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #3 Posted 20 February 2020 - 05:09 AM

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The RNG elements in the game are applied equally for everyone.  For every time you've missed a shot that you thought you were justified in hitting, you've been saved by someone else missing a shot that was aimed at you. You are subject to the same low damage rolls as everyone else, the same dispersion values. Game mechanics aren't applied preferentially.

 

Skill comes from familiarity with those game mechanics and being able to make the correct decisions to mitigate the effects of randomness to turn a situation in your favour. That's how you change the outcome and win games. 



Nishi_Kinuyo #4 Posted 20 February 2020 - 07:40 AM

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OnTheVerge

 The enemy was rather close (350 meters or so)

 Yes, the game considers that long range...



ilmavarvas #5 Posted 20 February 2020 - 07:54 AM

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Oh dear OP... What have you done? You question the honesty of totally soviet-era business model company, that's no good... [removed] :trollface:

 

But for us normal people, you got some valid points there - no need to be shady if you're not doing anything shady. ATM no-one knows for certain how the mechanics work or does everyone get same rng or not or how teams are really made, so so far only guesses and some nice tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories and they will continue as WG isn't giving any info anyways.

 

So best thing to do is play if you like the game, but consider 2 times spending money on it.


Edited by Homer_J, 20 February 2020 - 12:14 PM.
Irrelevant comment removed


Cobra6 #6 Posted 20 February 2020 - 08:38 AM

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View PostOnTheVerge, on 20 February 2020 - 01:35 AM, said:

 

Why are the devs not sincere, and why are so many of the game's mechanics hidden?

 

 

 

If I remember correctly the reason given years and years back was:

" Because too much information would only be confusing to the players."

 

Think about that and how convenient that excuse is :)

 

Cobra 6 



Gruff_ #7 Posted 20 February 2020 - 08:43 AM

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Vey interesting topic :honoring:

shikaka9 #8 Posted 20 February 2020 - 08:52 AM

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This >>  [removed]

:honoring: 

 

 

A reminder of the forum rules:

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Homer_J


Edited by Homer_J, 20 February 2020 - 12:19 PM.
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jabster #9 Posted 20 February 2020 - 10:27 AM

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View Postilmavarvas, on 20 February 2020 - 06:54 AM, said:

Oh dear OP... What have you done? You question the honesty of totally soviet-era business model company, that's no good... Prepare to get full frontal assault by WG fanboys in replies. :trollface:

 

But for us normal people, you got some valid points there - no need to be shady if you're not doing anything shady. ATM no-one knows for certain how the mechanics work or does everyone get same rng or not or how teams are really made, so so far only guesses and some nice tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories and they will continue as WG isn't giving any info anyways.

 

So best thing to do is play if you like the game, but consider 2 times spending money on it.

 

If you hold the position that WG is secretly out to get you with the MM/RNG etc. then what difference does it make what they tell you?



TankkiPoju #10 Posted 20 February 2020 - 10:31 AM

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WG even added a comparison tool in the actual WoT client, which still doen't show the hidden statistics like gun handling and ground resistances.

 

Because WG says this information would "confuse people".

 

WG also plans huge balance changes to HE mechanics and ammo damage. Because that won't "confuse people at all".

 

The real reason for hiding these stats is they would reveal the systematic ninja buffing of Russian tanks, and ninja nerfing of German tanks.

 



NUKLEAR_SLUG #11 Posted 20 February 2020 - 10:35 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 20 February 2020 - 08:38 AM, said:

 

If I remember correctly the reason given years and years back was:

" Because too much information would only be confusing to the players."

 

Think about that and how convenient that excuse is :)

 

Cobra 6 

 

Having watched the decision making on display in game by a substantial percentage of the player base at times I can well believe WG has a perfectly valid point.



tajj7 #12 Posted 20 February 2020 - 10:36 AM

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We know most stats these days, there are multiple tools and I reckon eventually WG will put one into the game, but at this point its probably just laziness.  I mean they clearly know everyone looks at sites like tank inspector, tanks.gg etc. and have done for a long time, all the CC vids about tanks show this information to players, its really very easy for most players to find.

 

If they want to, and I think that is probably, along with laziness, why they haven't bothered, because they know a whole host of players don't even open their options, what good is an armour model or knowing ground resistances to those sort of players? 

 

Really only a minority of players look into the details of the tanks and WG know we do this through tanks.gg etc. and they know that information is often shown to all the viewers that watch CC videos and streams as well.

 

I think the only things we don't really know is stuff like repair speeds and gear ratios, which has been speculated has an impact on mobility and explains why the Skorpion is way faster than the SU-130 despite very similar mobility stats or how the 277 feels way more mobile than the IS7. 



Cobra6 #13 Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:06 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 20 February 2020 - 09:35 AM, said:

 

Having watched the decision making on display in game by a substantial percentage of the player base at times I can well believe WG has a perfectly valid point.


Well, the information won't hurt those bad players, it only enriches the knowledge of those interested in it. So why leave it out?

 

View Posttajj7, on 20 February 2020 - 09:36 AM, said:

 

I think the only things we don't really know is stuff like repair speeds and gear ratios, which has been speculated has an impact on mobility and explains why the Skorpion is way faster than the SU-130 despite very similar mobility stats or how the 277 feels way more mobile than the IS7. 

 

And those values whatever they are called that cause Russian guns to be good at snapshotting while for instance German or French ones aren't, with the same visible stats on tanks.gg and in the game :)

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 20 February 2020 - 12:07 PM.


wsatnutter #14 Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:13 PM

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OP it's all down to RNG

Flicka #15 Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:15 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 20 February 2020 - 10:36 AM, said:

We know most stats these days, there are multiple tools and I reckon eventually WG will put one into the game, but at this point its probably just laziness.  I mean they clearly know everyone looks at sites like tank inspector, tanks.gg etc. and have done for a long time, all the CC vids about tanks show this information to players, its really very easy for most players to find.

 

If they want to, and I think that is probably, along with laziness, why they haven't bothered, because they know a whole host of players don't even open their options, what good is an armour model or knowing ground resistances to those sort of players? 

 

Really only a minority of players look into the details of the tanks and WG know we do this through tanks.gg etc. and they know that information is often shown to all the viewers that watch CC videos and streams as well.

 

I think the only things we don't really know is stuff like repair speeds and gear ratios, which has been speculated has an impact on mobility and explains why the Skorpion is way faster than the SU-130 despite very similar mobility stats or how the 277 feels way more mobile than the IS7. 


This, at this point pure laziness.

And the Obj. 277 vs IS7 mobility is definitely something you can see in game but nowhere in stats.

 

I can also tell you that if you shoot German guns the shells tend to dip as they fly, so you will hit the lover part of the reticle more often, and there will be players here who noticed the same thing, but it still means nothing and can/should be down to RNG.

 

Other fact is that accuracy, especially how it is displayed in game is not what it actually is, the sigma in the dispersion means a lot, so a 0,4 gun is not really twice less accurate than a 0.20 gun, but those are something you can read about on net, some things are just unknown to us.



fwhaatpiraat #16 Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:22 PM

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Dispersion is displayed. Bloom values aren't. Maybe initially done to keep the game arcade or to give certain tanks certain gun handling. It is one of the things that were part of the Russian bias.

vixu #17 Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:35 PM

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Imho, with so much variables in the game (such as 30 random players + 25% rng) its kinda useless to have all the details to the last tenth of a probability. In that respect, WG might be right. On top of this, any documentation has to be maintained. And it is quite an effort if they have to publish a complex model, I believe. 

But well... nothing stops the community to create "free WoT", with no secrecy and  totally understandable mechanics. 

Like Bender from Futurama would say. "I'll create my own WoT, with slot machines and h...s"

1ucky #18 Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:50 PM

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Maybe try a million more questions and topics, all in the same posting.

And try to make it as long as possible, and put as much feeling as you can into every sentence, especially when talking about mathematical formulas and precision.

Give it a try mate, maybe it helps.

 

TL;DR

Because #AintNobodyGotTimeForThat


Edited by 1ucky, 20 February 2020 - 12:57 PM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #19 Posted 20 February 2020 - 01:48 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 20 February 2020 - 12:06 PM, said:

Well, the information won't hurt those bad players, it only enriches the knowledge of those interested in it. So why leave it out?

 

Those sufficiently interested can go look it up on tanks.gg where the supposedly 'secret' information that WG doesn't want you to know is readily available for anyone that cares.

 



1ucky #20 Posted 20 February 2020 - 02:12 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 20 February 2020 - 12:06 PM, said:

Well, the information won't hurt those bad players, it only enriches the knowledge of those interested in it. So why leave it out?

(...)

People can't handle too much information at once.

Show them hundreds of data points per tank (and then hundreds of tanks, rules, etc) at your own peril.

 

(As always: Don't believe me, try it out for yourself. Teach people any way you want and see what happens.)

 

Etc.

13:16 Added after 3 minute

P.S.

Like others have pointed out already, those who want to learn more will look for further info by themselves and find it easily as it's been thoroughly outsourced. Don't have to put every bit of info about every atom of the game on the same screen, just because it's true. Too much clutter/scrolling otherwise, in addition to what's been said.






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