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[SUGGESTION] HE rework, that actually might work ?

HE Tactical rework balance 2.0

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speedphlux #1 Posted 23 February 2020 - 01:38 PM

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I think Wargaming are on to something with the changes that they proposed in the Sandbox server. Bigger Health Pool for tanks is a welcome change, specially for tanks that are sub-Tier VII. Increasing the damage of the "standard" shells is also good. Personally I'm on the fence about the removal of tanks from the Tech Tree, but whatever. Problem is, the HE changes that they proposed were awful. You had no idea what damage roll you'll get while using HE, HEP or HESH ammo. I've seen rolls from 160 all the way to 1104 while using the FV 215b 183 for example. Go figure !

HE ammo with penetration value is a must IMHO. It becomes "skill ammo". There is nothing more satisfying, than to penetrate an enemy with HE shell and see those huge numbers. Getting it down to 0 removes all the fun and "skill" in using it. Less fun and skill - less playtime, less happy players, less money for SerB's space station. In the beginning, HE penetration was tied to the caliber of the gun. To be exact, it was half of the caliber. That's why a lot of "old timer" guns, like the 75mm L/70 German gun, has 38mm penetration for it's HE ammo. I don't even have to look it up in the Wiki to know that. Problem is, with penetration under 40mm, HE ammo is kinda useless. A lot of times, you won't be even able to penetrate a Borsig with sub-40mm pen HE.

 

Now, on the other hand, HE is supposed to do "more damage", but only when it penetrates. What if WG changed that ? What if HE ammo deals exactly as much as the "speshul" rounds (aka "premium") ? That way, Humpty-Dumpties will not be tempted to load their tanks with it, since it does less damage than the standard AP or APCR rounds. This alone solves the problem of Sub-1k battles Lowe drivers, that fire nothing but HE. And in order to "fix" the balance of the "fun & skill" mechanic of HE ammo, all WG needs to do, is to increase the penetration of HE ammo to one time it's caliber for all those that don't use HEP or HESH guns. Just imagine a 75mm L/70 German gun with 75mm HE penetration that deals 135 damage. The increased penetration will still render you useless versus Super Heavies, unless WG wants to do something about it and rolls back the old days when any HE ammo was capable of dealing damage to any target, even if it was in the single digits numbers. Also, that way the increased penetration would solve another problem that WG had with the HE nerf on the SB server. I think it's safe to say that we want those critical hits back. We want to wreck modules and decapitate crew members. It's fun ! And since it has been such a huge part of the game in the past, I don't think it'll be a wise idea to remove it. Of course, if the HE ammo fails to penetrate, then there is no cause for internal module damage whatsoever. Case closed. And to those that want to feel "not so useless versus Super Heavies" while spamming HE from a 75mm L/70 guns ... Well, even with the 0 pen suggestion from the SB, you were still hopeless. Sub-150 damage on a 0 pen HE was comfortably absorbed by any decently armored Heavy I've encountered in my research.


What about tanks with HEP or HESH ammo ? I'm not very keen "derpinator" myself, so I can't comment on that, but I'm sure that WG can figure out a way to balance those types of ammo compared to the changes I suggested with "normal HE". It shouldn't be hard. Specially not compared to the silly "0 pen" idea they had on the SB.

Arty ? [edited]arty ! Get rid off the stupid "stun mechanics" or get rid of the whole class. They feel horrible to play at the Live right now and sure as hell they felt even more useless on the Sandbox server.



vixu #2 Posted 23 February 2020 - 01:54 PM

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All your arguments ins support for HE ammo are equally applicable for keeping arty in the game. 

Many players do like to play arty.

Balc0ra #3 Posted 23 February 2020 - 03:59 PM

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View Postspeedphlux, on 23 February 2020 - 01:38 PM, said:

HE ammo with penetration value is a must IMHO. It becomes "skill ammo". There is nothing more satisfying, than to penetrate an enemy with HE shell and see those huge numbers. Getting it down to 0 removes all the fun and "skill" in using it. Less fun and skill - less playtime, less happy players, less money for SerB's space station. In the beginning, HE penetration was tied to the caliber of the gun. To be exact, it was half of the caliber. That's why a lot of "old timer" guns, like the 75mm L/70 German gun, has 38mm penetration for it's HE ammo. I don't even have to look it up in the Wiki to know that. Problem is, with penetration under 40mm, HE ammo is kinda useless. A lot of times, you won't be even able to penetrate a Borsig with sub-40mm pen HE.

 

0 pen HE is an idea WG did see as a failure. So nothing more of that. As now HE pen is usually half the caliber of the gun. And that's mostly a good idea. But a bad idea on low tiers like with the 30 or 47mm etc. 15 HE pen is not gonna do anything vs most lights even. Less so from a 57mm T-34 trying to reset cap vs a KV-220 by hitting the hull. So I see what WG wanted to do based on that. But all they needed was to bend the half caliber rule on lower caliber guns tbh vs changing all of the mechanics.

 

View Postspeedphlux, on 23 February 2020 - 01:38 PM, said:

Now, on the other hand, HE is supposed to do "more damage", but only when it penetrates. What if WG changed that ? What if HE ammo deals exactly as much as the "speshul" rounds (aka "premium") ? That way, Humpty-Dumpties will not be tempted to load their tanks with it, since it does less damage than the standard AP or APCR rounds.

 

Tbh that's not needed in general. You can but up an argument for some non-derp guns, or non-HE dedicated guns like the 17cm on the Jgpz E100. He has 85mm HE pen and 1400 alpha "same as the old Type 5 gold HE". But on the M4 with 350 HEAT vs 410 HE alpha. It won't matter as much soon. Why? HP buff on lower tiers was something they wanted to keep. So depending on the final balance they go for. Hetzer and M4 might not be able to one-shot a T67 etc. And that's a good thing. Thus the alpha balance there is less vital or needed. As I thought the HE change vs the HP buffs etc was... a bit pointless.



Dava_117 #4 Posted 23 February 2020 - 05:27 PM

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I don't see the point of an HE round with low pen that deal the same amount of damage as special rounds.

HE need the highest alpha damage tied to the lowest penetration factor. 

 

IMO the problem with HE are basically 2:

Lots of critical over non penetrating hit and high caliber HE doing to much damage.

IMO both can be solved without touching the core mechanic but just doing some adjustments on coefficients.

Let's proceed with order.

 

Critical hits:

IMO what WG did with the spalling mechanic was teally good. Critical hit with non penetrating HE became lower. That should be brought up to the live server. I would also add a complete removal of critical hit if a spall liner of any type is installed. This would also buff the spall liner making it something more desirable.

 

High HE damage:

There are several solution there.

The formula for HE damage is:

Damage = (alpha * 0.5) * (1 - distance / blast rad) - (1.1 * armour * spall loner coeff.)

 

The easiest way to reduce the effectiveness of high caliber HE is to increase that 1.1 coefficient. This will increase the armour capability to absorb damage. 

Another solution is to change the spall liner effect from increasing armour effectiveness to a direct reduction of HE. In this way, taking a standard 950 alpha HE and a super heavy spall liner, you may get 950*0.5*0.5= 237.5 alpha that now get further reduce by armour itself. 

This solution give good advantage to light vehicles too, because even the 20% reduction of the light spall liner can change that 950 alpha HE into a base 380 alpha ready to be further reduce by armour.

A last solution may be to change the damage distribution inside the blast radius. Already changing it from linear to quadratic can sensibly reduce the splash capacity of high caliber HE enought to prevent the from splashing on roofs and engine decks as easily as now.

 



speedphlux #5 Posted 23 February 2020 - 11:10 PM

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Hmm, good points. Low tier/caliber seems to suffer the most. I just come from an era in the game when HE was always going damage and even when playing a Tier IV and having to fight off Tier VIIIs, you weren't as useless as if it would be nowadays. I clearly remember killing a Tiger II in my A-20, armed with the 37mm ZIS gun, by spamming HE into his tracks while standing under him on old El Halluf A2-3 corner. Each shot dealing between 2 and 6 damage, most importantly keeping him tracked for my allies to help me out. There was no "assistance" damage back then. FeelsBadMan.

I feel like HE Is either super good or utterly useless right now. Needs changes, but not WG suggested in the Sandbox for sure. Perhaps they need to tinker that one on their side of things - game engine I mean. Coz this feels like a dead end.

NekoPuffer_PPP #6 Posted 23 February 2020 - 11:59 PM

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HE with equal pen to its caliber?

 

You really want KV-2s driving around with 152mm pen HE shells which deal 910 damage? (I guess it would be 700 damage if you plan on reducing it to AP damage levels...)

 

What about arty? 240 pen T92? That'd be like old arty, but even worse (better?!?). Oh no... :trollface:

 

Why don't we just let the HE-spamming "Humpty-Dumpties" as you call 'em, try to learn from their mistake instead of dumbing the game down even further, eh?







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