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Japanese Super Heavies. Terrible or meh?

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ELRagePsycho_ #1 Posted 03 March 2020 - 11:02 PM

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So, I've been thinking about what my next line to grind up should be. I'm more or less looking for a line that is generally regarded as 'bad' or a line that's rare to see in battle due to the fact the vast majority deem the tanks horrible but they're actually kind of okay. That's when I started thinking about the Japanese Heavies. 

 

I've seen 90% of the Jap Heavies' performances in game not do too well or do nothing at all. On the other hand, the other times I've seen them, they've done very well. As someone who's interested in the lesser played lines or lines deemed as 'bad' by the majority, I've become more and more interested in these vehicles. They were a complete nightmare when they were broken but now that they've been nerfed substantially there are still those that claim the tanks aren't even as bad as what they're made out to be. I just wanted to find out as I am going up this line, whether or not these tanks really are as bad as people make them out to be or if they're just simply 'meh'. So far, the only major offenders in the line seem to be the tier 7 and 10 from what I have heard but if that's the case, I'm fine with Tier 9 since I think it is generally the best tier to play. I know the line isn't amazing or worth the grind but I prefer a challenge when driving tanks rather than having the tanks drive me and spoon feed me amazing end battle results.

 

Anyways, I'm interested to hear what everyone has to say. 



Nishi_Kinuyo #2 Posted 04 March 2020 - 12:10 AM

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To be honest, I think they've lost their shine a little in the current meta.

Tier 2: amazing tank with basically no armour.

Tier 3: great gun, no armour.

Tier 4: oh hey look, free exp sink.

Tier 5: okay, here we're starting to get the super-heavy experience: armour that's good-ish for its tier... until you got some twitch streamer who gives advice:

Spoiler

The Tier 5 comes with two choices of guns: a derp with agonisingly slow shells, and the 75mm gun that is quite decent. Also, the entire line, from tier 1 to 10, are slow. If you grinded to tier 5 and still don't hate tanks this slow, then gg.

Tier 6: probably the best experience out of the line: stock, you got an actually good gun, elited, you got a derp. Grinding this tank should not be that frustrating, unless you can't handle the slow tanks, or the fact that your armour only works against same/lower tiers and is pretty useless against anything dabbing the 2 key. This tier will probably make or break the line for you, since the experience you get here will basically continue.

Tier 7: Worst. Camo. In. The. Game. And I'm not even joking either. You're as big as a barn, with interesting armour layout. Again, your stock grind has a viable gun, so it should be mostly smooth sailing.

Tier 8: And this is where we get a spot of marmite on our toast. The derp isn't as competitive anymore as it used to be, but at least they finally gave the AP gun a gold shell after several years of being stuck with 215mm pen. The miniturret placement is plain dumb, and mostly negates any gun depression you have to your front-left.

Tier 9: Congratulations, you're going to hate the stock grind, because the 12.7cm/50 3rd Year Type is your typical stock grind experience. Low dpm, low AP pen, lowish gold pen, and Wargaming decided to swap the 14cm/50 3rd Year Type and the 15cm/45 41st Year Type around in the order they're unlocked, so if you don't like the derp (and its not good anymore), you're going to grind a lot more experience to get the AP gun. You're also going to need the tracks first, or that equipment in order to even mount a better gun.

Tier 10: if you make it here, then you'll probably know that basically everybody is going to dab the 2 key the moment they see you, so be prepared to get penned a lot.

 

Personally, I'd say the tier 5-7 ones are the most playable, although the tier 9 was somewhat useful with new year to get some damage blocking missions done.



Persesaapas #3 Posted 04 March 2020 - 12:29 AM

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All the way to T8 was fun but after T9 i lost all the interest.

If you like slow brick that has no armour against anything that shoots gold then you might enjoy it. Flat turret face just gets penned most of the time in t9-10 games so even if you just turn your turret face to enemy you can get annihilated by gold spam.

Most of the time you are too slow to reach crucial battles and when you arrived own team has either steamrolled enemy or you will get steamrolled by enemy. It can bully pretty much all t8 tanks and they will struggle to pen you but T9 guns will start hurting you a lot and often.

Robbie_T #4 Posted 04 March 2020 - 01:33 AM

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a few patches too late to grind that down

 



Dava_117 #5 Posted 04 March 2020 - 01:44 AM

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I abandoned the line at tier 6. A superheavy line that can't angle to effectively use armour is one of the most dumb idea one can have. O-I was a pain. Every time you faced a gun with enough pen to punch trough your frontal armour, there is nothing you can do to prevent the player behind it to pen you. 

And being the player behind that gun a lot of time, I can assure you jap HT are strong only against the common bobs that don't know where to shoot.



kaneloon #6 Posted 04 March 2020 - 02:19 AM

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Tiers 8 was fun and not OP until the nerf hit it pretty hard.

Tiers 9 I bought after the nerf and it is so terrible to grind and it needs so much XP to upgrade that I will go no further. And giving free HP farming to enemies is not my cup of tea.



splash_time #7 Posted 04 March 2020 - 09:45 AM

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Hm, why lesser played lines? In this line you won't challenge yourself, but probably just annoy yourself. 

 

This line don't have any armour, people fire AP and if it didn't go through? They spam HEAT/APCR.

 

They don't have the mobility neither the maneuverability. They are just as big as a house and as slow as a snail. Arty you'll just be arty food 70% of the time you play it, and the 30% is HEAT/APCR's portion. 

 

This line was good with the good old derp howitzer it had. Now it's just existing to say "yh well......we kept Japanese HTs....at least?!..."



ZDN #8 Posted 04 March 2020 - 10:01 AM

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Type 5 it was and it is trash, the armor is not working. the gold/high pen will pen you all day.

 

The tank cant hide its pen zones, so got it and sold it.Waste of time after the nerf on its HE.



Kissa_ei_kuulu_pakkaseen #9 Posted 04 March 2020 - 10:06 AM

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Did obj260 HT-15 easily with Type 5 but have not touched the turd since in randoms. Played some games with it in the 7vs7 format just4fun, but was missing the fun even the gold spam was not there...

Edited by Kissa_ei_kuulu_pakkaseen, 04 March 2020 - 10:06 AM.


LZ_Mordan #10 Posted 04 March 2020 - 01:36 PM

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complete trash

 

any armor is trash nowadays. I played the T95. today. They don't even need to hit the cuppola and flank me. I am dead in 10 seconds. no fun no fun.

 

Trash 

 

Trash because gold ammo. 

 

Gold ammo ruins this game. Completely. And WG is a manipulative company. They botched the HE new balance on purpose to remove the gold ammo nerf.


Edited by LZ_Mordan, 04 March 2020 - 01:37 PM.


leggasiini #11 Posted 05 March 2020 - 11:26 AM

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Type 5 Heavy is a perfect example of WG having absolutely no idea how to balance the game. It was introduced back in 2015 and it was basically the worst tier 10 in the game - its gimmick was armor that had next to no weakspots against standard shells, meaning that only good pen RNG or tier 10 TDs could pen it and therefor it would have excellent survivability...in theory. Because of this, it sacrified its firepower and mobility for this, having the worst gun in the entire tier (back then T10 LTs didnt exist so it quite literally had the worst gun out of all tier 10s) and as you expect it was slow as well. However, the armor was completely negated by premium rounds, which people were forced to load against the Type 5 even back then unless it sidescraped and showed its hull cheeks. Back then it had thinner front by 10mm + hull cheek weakspots so it was even more vulnerable to gold than it was now. Whereas it can sometimes get lucky bounces even against gold shells, back then Type 5 had 0 hope against any premium round. Its only advantage was negated by premium ammo, hence it was the worst tier 10 in the game.

 

The core issues were there - 14 cm AP gun (the original gun Type 5 had) being absolute trash and armor layout being super awfully designed. Obviously the way to fix this was to significantly buff the 14 cm gun and then rework the armor. Instead of this, WG simply overbuffed the armor to be even more resistant to standard ammo but still vulnerable to premium, and then left the 14 cm as it was (it got small buffs but it was still probably the worst HT gun at tier 10 with its 249/282 pen + awful accuracy + bad gun handling + bad DPM) and instead gave it completely broken derp gun, which made the tank broken. And when the tank finally got nerf/rework it needed, WG simply trashed the derp gun into uselessness, gave small mobility buffs, left the armor completely untouched and gave some though still not good enough buffs to the 14 cm. 

 

Basically Type 5 Heavy is closer to back what it was before it got the megabuff, still needing complete rework on its armor and more buffs to the 14 cm (and removal of the derp gun). It's quite a bit better at least but with powercreep at tier 10 it really isn't much better compared to the meta tanks than what it was 3 years ago. At least it's not the worst tier 10 HT anymore, but only because there's trash like IS-4 and E5. And no, removing gold ammo alone isnt the solution for the Type 5 Heavy, it would become OP again if gold was just removed and nothing was done to Type 5 Heavy itself. Thats how flawed its current design is, the tank needs a rework (a buff overall I'd say but not a direct buff apart from 14cm which still needs a buff IMO).

 

Either way, is the line worth it? Depends. I'd say no if you only care about high tier stuff.

 

  • Tier 2-4 - Hard skip unless you like seal clubbing, then I-Go is there for you. Tier 3-4 are a hard skip regardless of anything.
  • Tier 5 - Armor is actually pretty dumb and it has two viable guns but its not fun to play most of the time because how much arty and derp guns there is at tier 5. Not a keeper.
  • Tier 6 - O-I is one of the two highlights alongside it's bigger brother O-Ni, the derp gun is still viable and although the armor is unreliable it can bully some low tiers really hard, something KV-2 can't really do. Gun is overall a bit worse than KV-2 but it does have its merits like better gun handling and accuracy, and then it gets some extra things like massively better view range. Still pretty strong, IMO.
  • Tier 7 - Still pretty strong as well, derp is still viable and AP gun is also a bit better (though IMO derp is still a bit better choice), you also have huge HP pool, still excellent view range and better mobility than the O-I. Strong when top tier, can still be decent when bottom tier with derp considering the HP pool it gets. 
  • Tier 8 - Utter trash, with derp its basically the O-Ni but with 150 more HP and better gun handling (woohoo?), but in return the mobility is slightly worse, view range is the same and you now have gun depression issues over the front. Oh and its tier 8 instead of 7, so its at much more powerful tier than the O-Ni. AP gun is better but still very underwhelming unless you're top tier, where the gun is actually pretty good. However, when not, you're stuck with gun handling and accuracy that is as bad or worse than 440 alpha guns, but you only get 330 alpha by yourself and sub-par penetration for such a slow tank.
  • Tier 9 - Terrible, long stock grind. Derp is completely unviable even with full gold. Armor layout has several issues though it can be very strong when top tier, prepare to bounce next to nothing against gold ammo though. 14 cm gun can be decent with its good pen and huge alpha, so there's that. Tank is inconsistent as hell, can be fun at times but also very frustrating.
  • Tier 10 - Again, derp is useless (even more so at tier 10), ignore it. Gets a huge HP and armor upgrade and it never faces higher tiers though the armor still is vulnerable to premium ammo, and now even more people load it against you because they have 0 hope with standard. Gun does get DPM and huge gun handling upgrade but 600 alpha isnt nearly as impressive anymore and the pen is more problematic at this tier, so overall firepower is a bit worse I'd say. Can be very strong when top tier, but varies from mediocre to bad in most other matchups, and struggles very hard in bad matchups. Type 5 has a hard time against heavies with higher alpha (60TP, VK K and ironically even the E 100) as it often relies on its alpha to outtrade its opponents and is completely hopeless against 279e.

 

I'd stop at tier 6-7, those two are unarguably the best two tanks in the line. Types can have their moments but they are too inconsistent to be worth it for the most players. 

 

I still hope the Type 4/5 Heavies gets a one more rework, but it's highly, highly unlikely at this point.


Edited by leggasiini, 05 March 2020 - 11:27 AM.


1ucky #12 Posted 05 March 2020 - 11:47 AM

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#Terrimeh

ExclamationMark #13 Posted 05 March 2020 - 11:59 AM

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Terrible. With the ammo and HP changes they were set to become probably OP or at least way stronger than they are atm. 

leggasiini #14 Posted 05 March 2020 - 01:25 PM

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View PostExclamationMark, on 05 March 2020 - 12:59 PM, said:

Terrible. With the ammo and HP changes they were set to become probably OP or at least way stronger than they are atm. 

Considering that for the Type 5 it was effectively a 30% HP buff (or even more considering that there would've been more people who would try to pen it with standard), it would've been much better indeed and probably OP.

 

Right now it would be OP if premium ammo didn't exist, but since it does and everyone fires it, Type 5 struggles much more.



Karasu_Hidesuke #15 Posted 05 March 2020 - 01:35 PM

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:(





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