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So Bored of Spawn Win Maps


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So_So_English #1 Posted 04 March 2020 - 10:13 PM

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now I have 1 map blocked, Studzianski because its pure [content removed], New Province was considered but as it stops at tier 7 no need

 

but god I am so bored of winning or losing a map because if the spawn

 

Fjords and Arctic region are IMHO the worst maps for this, Highway also high on my hate list and possibly Mines

 

Fjords, I still cannot work out how to win from west spawn if the east spawn sends several tanks in to the dip, this position gives them so much control and safety and there appears to be no counter.  In the PRE 1.0 map the position was far less OP and there was the boost counter which has since been removed.  I have tried being aggressive in the north but just get [edited]farmed from the dip and hill, tried shooting them on the way to the dip from both F3 and E5 and even yolo'd into the dip but none of them really work.  F3 had some great damage games but few wins, E5 just a bad idea and I don't like to yolo because that's just bad gameplay.  The only partially successful tactic is to base camp  around C3 and farm damage but its hardly a good tactic

 

Arctic Region (Mannerheim Line)  Again the east spawn seems to have every advantage, you get down to J8 easy farm and with the buffs to the defense on the A line after 1.0 its much harder to push over from the west spawn, assuming your team does not camp C2 and open up the entire middle of the map and in the end game camping the eastern base is just so OP its BS especially if you have a STRV  Swedish TD in A0 bush  

 

Highway   Again the North East spawn has so many advantages, most games the meds storm over to A1 and drive into the base to cap, there is fire support from the base to farm and even if the west spawn gets to a1 what can they do? they get shot from B7 and even if they push over lose plenty of HP and the defenders just fall back to E9 and defend the base. More even if the east wins the city they cannot get back to defend their base against a cap as its too open and up hill, the west has the flat roads to whizz back if needed.

 

any opinions?  be glad if anyone has tips to help and I would love to hear your thoughts on these or other maps you hate

 

ps, not blocked these because Studzianski just the worst map ever, and I would Block Minsk second (although to be fair Minsk might be the most accurate map in the game, I spent time in Minsk when I worked for BP late 80s early 90s, like the map its a real shithole)

 

Inappropriate use of the word "ebola".

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Edited by Nakano_Ichika, 07 March 2020 - 12:57 PM.


TommyGunHu #2 Posted 04 March 2020 - 10:31 PM

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Nothing wrong with the maps, sure some of them need some tweaks, but you can play every side. The real problem is the players, they have no idea what is they role in the game.
 

So_So_English #3 Posted 04 March 2020 - 10:44 PM

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View PostTommyGunHu, on 04 March 2020 - 10:31 PM, said:

Nothing wrong with the maps, sure some of them need some tweaks, but you can play every side. The real problem is the players, they have no idea what is they role in the game.
 


ok, 2 questions

 

how you win fjords if they take the dip?

and what difference does it makw what tank you are in on fjords if you take the dip in it?



ZlatanArKung #4 Posted 05 March 2020 - 09:29 AM

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View PostTommyGunHu, on 04 March 2020 - 10:31 PM, said:

Nothing wrong with the maps, sure some of them need some tweaks, but you can play every side. The real problem is the players, they have no idea what is they role in the game.
 

There are huge issues with maps like Mannerheim line, Fjords, Studzianski, Minsk, Pilsen, Province.

 

Even though WG made them super easy to play, players struggle to understand that pushing is bad.

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View PostSo_So_English, on 04 March 2020 - 10:44 PM, said:


ok, 2 questions

 

how you win fjords if they take the dip?

and what difference does it makw what tank you are in on fjords if you take the dip in it?

 

 

From right side, you go and take the dip.

From left side, you wait and hope enemy do bad moves and lose much hp while camping.

Or you push mid road after heavy side won and hope enemy don't have TDs in standard TD position.



tajj7 #5 Posted 05 March 2020 - 10:24 AM

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Yeh there are a lot of unbalanced maps, it takes them ages to notice and then fix these things, like we had Sand River Assault giving defenders like a 65% WR for ages before they removed it, they only recently fixed the spawns on Mines encounter. 

 

You have other maps like Live Oaks, where the south team has far better positions on the east flank by the railway line, which is the much more important flank.

 

Or Westfield where the west team has all the advantages on the heavy brawling hills and wins this more often than not. 

 

Or Reshire where the north team's heavies can easily get wrecked going towards the zeppellin, but south teams can't.

 

Or Cliff, where the south team can rush the middle and easily dominate.

 

Or that stupid position they put on Ruinberg that if south team rushes to they can dominate the field and catch anyone in a crossfire.

 

Or how stupidly powerful the base camping positions for south team are on Steppes compared to north team.

 

etc. etc.

 

So many games are not decided by which team plays best, but by which side they spawn on and if they get the better tanks. 



8126Jakobsson #6 Posted 05 March 2020 - 11:18 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 March 2020 - 10:24 AM, said:

Or Cliff, where the south team can rush the middle and easily dominate.

 

This one is a bit more of a players thing though don't you think? The timing should be fairly equal so I guess it has become this way because meds from north have an easier time playing mid cliff side than the south?



ExclamationMark #7 Posted 05 March 2020 - 11:28 AM

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So then unblock Stud and add Fjords.

Fjords has been #1 on my list since it was introduced and that won't change until the map is removed or actually made playable from West spawn.

#2 is Cliff because its just another laughably imbalanced map. 


Edited by ExclamationMark, 05 March 2020 - 11:29 AM.


ZlatanArKung #8 Posted 05 March 2020 - 11:43 AM

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Imbalances are kind of fine for me, that 1 team has an advantage on map or a certain part of map.

My main issues with maps is their bad design with respect to tactical and strategical maneuvers possible. Most remade/new maps force players into a close range brawl and/or a yolo rush across some open fields which have hard and soft cover at the end. Also possible elevated.

chainreact0r #9 Posted 05 March 2020 - 11:47 AM

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View PostSo_So_English, on 04 March 2020 - 10:44 PM, said:


ok, 2 questions

 

how you win fjords if they take the dip?

and what difference does it makw what tank you are in on fjords if you take the dip in it?

You can't force a win if the enemy sends forces to the dip. You can only hope they make enough mistakes to throw the game.

 

If you are in a heavy you can try winning the heavy side fast and lock the dip guys in a crossfire. If you can't win the heavy corner, it means your team should win the other side, or the game is lost so just farm damage.

 

If you are in a med/light you can go into the bushes below the hill at B7/C7(i think, i don't have a map). There you can spot the guys on top and fall back to double bush and farm them, and hope that you locking down 2-3 guys is enough help for your team. You need a high camo med for this though, so in something like a patton you might be screwed.

 

If you are in a td, i have no clue. Camp field and don't get spotted i guess, or if you are fast go mid and shoot the guys that go in the dip, or if you have armor go heavy flank.



LZ_Mordan #10 Posted 05 March 2020 - 12:29 PM

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empire border encounter...

 

the spawn that gets on the base first win easily.



tajj7 #11 Posted 05 March 2020 - 12:30 PM

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View Post8126Jakobsson, on 05 March 2020 - 10:18 AM, said:

 

This one is a bit more of a players thing though don't you think? The timing should be fairly equal so I guess it has become this way because meds from north have an easier time playing mid cliff side than the south?

 

I think, but I am not sure, that north has a bit further to go to get to the same spot, but they also get less value from there, they can't spot/shoot people moving up the ramp to the middle or to go heavy side as easily, and they are more exposed to the camping TD positions.

 

IIRC as well they don't have the dip to hull down/peek from either. 

 



LethalWalou #12 Posted 05 March 2020 - 01:17 PM

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I remember when long long time ago I used to be bit like you OP, complaining about ''winning sides'' but then I realised that it's not actually true. What I truly dislike about certain maps is the players on it who just give up because ''oh i spawned on the losing side, what is the point'' and then the game is lost.

 

Examples of this are indeed:

Fjords: People spawn on the left and choose to camp instead of actively play the game and challenge the positions. The middle is only strong if you let the enemies take it and then feed yourself to it by getting spotted on the field or going up NE flank. Don't do that and it's fine. There are ways to counter the middle

Murovanka: People don't go to forest from south and then they get surrounded to the SW corner of the map. Even though north has slightly better positions to the forest, even a half arsed attempt to counter it from south works just fine. Camping the west side does not work and it's quite a hard side to push.

 

For Mannerheim line and Highway it's another case of you just having to challenge the positions. On Highway, south spawn can cross to A1 without being seen if done correctly, from there you have crossfire if they push up and ability to spot enemies on A1 for your team and arty. On Mannerheim line south flank, you have to commit to either commit or not commit. Half arsing does not work there and if you just sit on the corner, you are a free farm and you can't leave the position. So you need to either go in or stay back. You can use the coastline to get a hull down position too and peak to the lower ground. From north spawn, you can actually go undetected along the coastline towards south base if you know how to. You have to be submerged a bit of the way too.

 

In general my tip is: Half arsing things does not work. You either have to commit to positions and actively play or take defensive positions and let enemies push after winning a certain position on maps. None of these maps named here have a position that is so good that taking it automatically wins the game. It only wins the game is the other side is actively feeding itself to the position. That is why if east side gets the middle on Fjords, you simply do not push the NE flank from west.



LethalWalou #13 Posted 05 March 2020 - 01:41 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 March 2020 - 09:24 AM, said:

 

 

Westfield is hardly true

Cliff is hardly true and just a problem with players. Too many times I see north players just stop on the corner and not come to the middle, even though they would be safe. Also, north tends to just camp the 1-2 line more and not commit to the doghnut from lower ground, leaving it to the south team.

Redshire fairly true but north can spot the crossing to zeppelin too. Problem is that even in a 3 arty game and telling where I spot, I barely see any arties shoot at the heavies crossing in the open. North can't shoot them same way as south can but it's something still and a problem with players.

Ruinberg another player issue. 3 solutions, take distance if they push to that building so you won't be proxy spotted and just let the enemy be there while still shooting to town, counter it from middle or push there yourself either directly or indirectly from the red line on 0-line.

And on Steppes, for umpteenth time, you don't have to drive in to feed yourself to those ''camping positions''. South positions are extremely easy to bypass and be left for the end. North spawn mainly loses matches because people push in to the south base in the open and get farmed. Don't do that and it's perfectly fine.



Flicka #14 Posted 05 March 2020 - 01:51 PM

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Ill say this, I do agree with LethalWalou that is is the players who cannot adapt and learn, thus making some maps unbalanced. But at the same time as the players can not do that, WG needs to stup up and fix them, because we all know the players wont change/learn. 

LethalWalou #15 Posted 05 March 2020 - 01:58 PM

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View PostSo_So_English, on 04 March 2020 - 09:44 PM, said:

how you win fjords if they take the dip?

and what difference does it makw what tank you are in on fjords if you take the dip in it?

 

The main thing is to not feed the middle position if the enemy team gets it. For example for west this means that you should not go up the NE flank or get spotted in the field buses. For east spawn this means to not get spotted in NE flank in a position that can be shot from the middle or sit in the camping spot in E7-8 so that if someone goes up to the hill they can spot you. If you know how many tanks there are in the middle, you can do a late push in there but only if you know they aren't supported. East hardly ever, if ever, stays to support the middle. West has people on F3 quite regularly supporting the middle and shooting the east campers at E7-8 and you have to think of them if you decide to do a late push to the dip from east.

 

For the second question, pretty much any tank can get there. Slower tanks are a risk from west if the east pushes aggressively and spots you on the field. Slower tanks  from east can take the safe route through the village streets and risk only be shot when crossing into the dip.

 

E: I might not have understood the second question correctly, so let me elaborate. Going to middle in certain tanks is risky because you will let the enemies have an advantage on a flank that your tank class generally goes to. Putting a heavy tank in the middle and the enemy team not feeding to you means that you might actually lose the game for that if the enemy heavies go to the common position. This is why the middle is not an auto-win position.


Edited by LethalWalou, 05 March 2020 - 02:02 PM.


will0hlep #16 Posted 05 March 2020 - 03:15 PM

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Has anyone on here actually found any stats on this subject or are you all just going off your own experience?

I have no problem with any spawn on any map. (except sand river, i'm not great at sand river but i see that that is my fault and i'm learning from my mistakes)

 

My advice, 1) WG do have stats for which maps are won by which spawn, when maps are actually biased to 1 spawn or the other by any noticeable margin, the maps are altered. (check patch notes for each update to see when maps were changed) 2) Try to focus on self improvement rather than screaming at WG on the forum. It makes playing this game far more enjoyable for you and anyone who has to play with you.



tajj7 #17 Posted 05 March 2020 - 03:19 PM

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View PostLethalWalou, on 05 March 2020 - 12:41 PM, said:

 

Westfield is hardly true

Cliff is hardly true and just a problem with players. Too many times I see north players just stop on the corner and not come to the middle, even though they would be safe. Also, north tends to just camp the 1-2 line more and not commit to the doghnut from lower ground, leaving it to the south team.

Redshire fairly true but north can spot the crossing to zeppelin too. Problem is that even in a 3 arty game and telling where I spot, I barely see any arties shoot at the heavies crossing in the open. North can't shoot them same way as south can but it's something still and a problem with players.

Ruinberg another player issue. 3 solutions, take distance if they push to that building so you won't be proxy spotted and just let the enemy be there while still shooting to town, counter it from middle or push there yourself either directly or indirectly from the red line on 0-line.

And on Steppes, for umpteenth time, you don't have to drive in to feed yourself to those ''camping positions''. South positions are extremely easy to bypass and be left for the end. North spawn mainly loses matches because people push in to the south base in the open and get farmed. Don't do that and it's perfectly fine.

 

 

Westfield the west spawn has a more forgiving ridge on the main ridge, go play hull down there, it's pretty clear and obvious how easier it is to use from one side, the reverse slope is flatter, meaning you can more easily hull down and catch enemies in the side or shoot their lower plate without exposing your tank. You can also more easily flank round the heavies up north as well from the B1 rock or getting into the A3 dip. It means West wins the heavy side more often than not because they simply have better positions, its actually very similar to Live Oaks, better positions all round and can easily create a crossfire, on what is the maps most important flank that usually decides the winner of the game.

 

Cliff is not a player problem at all, people from both teams will camp 1 line, that is irrelevant, if more from one team does they suffer no different to any other noob trap like beach on overlord. But the simple reality is that the south team can dominate the middle more easily, get their more quickly and more safely, have more shots from there and create more crossfires and win the game more easily.

 

Redshire, you get far less opportunity to shoot the heavies crossing because there is a lot more cover and its easier for them to avoid getting spotted at all because they can take a wider route because they have more space to do that rather than a narrow path. Also they can then hull down on the ridges looking into the zeppellin area free from risk of side shots, but the north team cannot, they either don't go or they have to go right into zeppellin area, probably losing HP on the way. Plus if a south team scout goes into the river bed area they have a massive advantage from that as well, they spot the heavies crossing, they can counter the north team's spotting bush with a low risk proxy and they can shoot into the heavies sides as well. The only real hope the north team has on redshire is stall from B8 with some TDs and win the other side by the castle, which is pretty even.  The whole east side of that map favours the south team. 

 

Ruinberg, if they take that spot they prevent you using middle road because you will end up in a 3 way crossfire. Which is about the only useful spot on the whole map for that spawn and they then have a crossfire into the field, which means you can't play at all round the village, you have to fall back and basically camp the red line. We then have the G1 spot for South which is very strong, you can hull down there and shoot heavies in the road or anyone that has pushed up in the side. You have the F7 window which can be useful to spot from and shoot into the field, they have the rubble spots at F8 to work as well in the village, as well which north side doesn't have.

 

AND finally the south team has the windows at K2 to easily defend their base from, another thing north doesn't have. So many spots on that map favour south team. 

 

Ruinberg used to be biased to north back in the day, mainly because they had more cover to move up the field side and they could take middle easier, but WG has flipped it the other way now with the silly spots they have put in.

 

As for Steppes, So you don't push, then what? Your basic plan is wait for campers to stop camping, yeh because that is going to happen :rolleyes: Go back and camp in your own base? Top strategy.  Those positions are massively strong, they overlook the base and thus there is no real incentive for people to give them up or come out of them.  They are completely broken positions anyway, but they are also clear advantages for one team over another, not compensated anywhere else. 

 

And your fjords plan is basically give up map control and camp in base, which is made even more hilarious in that west spawn on that map has stronger positions to camp in base as well because of the island, west team will struggle to defend base if they give up the field, not enough space or room to fall back to, once field is basically lost (which is will be if they push middle and have people north) your only real hope is that they somehow muck up that massive advantage or you have won the heavy corner with minimal losses, which is also unlikely.  Middle wins the game most of the time on that map and the middle massively favours the east team, if they east team plays normally they will win the game, for west to win east team has to be basically terrible. 

 

I also like this assumption that one player has any control on what 14 other people are doing. Most players are average, therefore they will not be able to pull of complicated plays, if two average teams face off against each other and deploy normally, then maps should be balanced for that, not some silly expectation that one team to has play massively better than the other to actually have a chance to winning. This sounds much like your silly argument about premium ammo being 'lazy' and you expect people to flank or play more tactically or whatever silly suggestion you have that is not realistic, whilst you have zero expectation for people driving idiot proof heavy tanks to do the same. 

 

One team should not have to play that much better than the other team, just to have a fair chance on a map, that is pure bad map design and bad balance. 

 

As the OP says many of these maps are basically spawn and win maps these days, they only aren't 100% because terrible teams can waste even the massive advantages these maps give one team. 



So_So_English #18 Posted 05 March 2020 - 04:06 PM

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few interesting points here

 

I am purely addressing a few specific maps, I am not querying a map that is played badly, Murovanka for example is a good map, players just play it badly, Redshire likewise, Steppes I agree has been ruined as I always thought it was the best map in the game but you can still play it, Ruinberg that position is [edited]but you can kill tanks before they get there if you are map aware.

Also I do not mind maps being 'sided', for example on Arctic Region I don't mind the north east spawn getting j7, pre 1.0 maps the eastern spawn could get to A3 and had the advantage if they did, however this is no longer the case as WG added extra defences slowing down any attack along the A line.

Live Oaks is another map played badly rather than being badly balanced, in ranked once you get to higher ranks watch the game, both teams go 9 line and I actually feel the northern spawn has an advantage getting to the water over the south spawn, the problem is the players go city and wait to lose because they don't get it.

 

BUT

 

Fjords, sorry guys but saying don't let them take the dip is not an answer because you CANNOT stop them taking the dip and there is no counter to it when they have, this position is simply far too strong and any decent team knows this and yolos it, its another map that was totally trashed with 1.0

Artic region the same, the gameplay now is so bad as the north east team has every advantage, especially since 1.0

Highway lower down my list but again 1 team has so many advantages over the other its is simply not a good map, never was either !!  the single best thing that 1.0 added was the removal of this map !!

 

as for blocking Fjords etc, I answered that, Studzianski is [content removed] every game is horrible and it is  by far the least enjoyable map I can ever remember, Minsk is also trash but I only have 1 map ban.

At least with Fjords etc you get the winning spawn 50% of the time !!

 

EDIT   pre 1.0 I was a much more aggressive player, post 1.0 I am a much more passive player, map changes and bush buffs have made aggressive play far too risky especially late game in a close battle, the harder the camp now the more you win, just look at this photo from arctic region and this was a win

 

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Balc0ra #19 Posted 05 March 2020 - 04:16 PM

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View PostSo_So_English, on 04 March 2020 - 10:44 PM, said:


ok, 2 questions

 

how you win fjords if they take the dip?

and what difference does it makw what tank you are in on fjords if you take the dip in it?

 

The issue with the dip is that TD's on the east side can't help down there. And fast-movers from the east can lock the hill road up staying safe from the TD's. The deal with the dip is you have to take it, and hope the other team doesn't dare push it. And that's the issue from both sides. 1 on the enemy team takes the dip, but the 3 on your side don't dare to take the hit to lock it down. As when you do that from the west, as anyone going there will be isolated. We won it. If they hesitate or wait, then east will get it with that one tank. It's the same on mines. You have 5 tanks going hill, but they had 2 tanks that got up there faster. So a 5 vs 2. What happens? 4 of the 5 stops and lets them have it. And waits for the others on the enemy team to lock both sides down. So now on none can help that 1 vs 2 on hill. That's why I hate mines more than anything, and this happens on both sides too.



So_So_English #20 Posted 05 March 2020 - 04:22 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 05 March 2020 - 04:16 PM, said:

 

The issue with the dip is that TD's on the east side can't help down there. And fast-movers from the east can lock the hill road up staying safe from the TD's. The deal with the dip is you have to take it, and hope the other team doesn't dare push it. And that's the issue from both sides. 1 on the enemy team takes the dip, but the 3 on your side don't dare to take the hit to lock it down. As when you do that from the west, as anyone going there will be isolated. We won it. If they hesitate or wait, then east will get it with that one tank. It's the same on mines. You have 5 tanks going hill, but they had 2 tanks that got up there faster. So a 5 vs 2. What happens? 4 of the 5 stops and lets them have it. And waits for the others on the enemy team to lock both sides down. So now on none can help that 1 vs 2 on hill. That's why I hate mines more than anything, and this happens on both sides too.


I have tried taking the dip from the west, my team always lets me die and then gets farmed

that's why I now camp base in c3 or camp f3 and just do as much damage as I can, I only go for the dip now IF the eastern team does NOT send tanks there, or in other words if the eastern team is full of bots 






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