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Is this game fatally flawed?


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zigzag101 #1 Posted 12 March 2020 - 04:30 PM

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As a newcomer I joined this game because as well as being a dam good looking shoot 'em up it also appeared to be a strategy game, a learning process at each tier to gain the skills to progress. It's not working like that. What I'm seeing in most games (and I admit I've only got started on Tier 5 up to now) is a gungho cowboy approach from most players.

 

The game starts and they rush on mass to one point and try to bulldoze a way through. Usually a choke point where three or four reds can pin them down and pick them off. TD's and Lights take on heavier tanks and last 20 secs or so before being one shot out of the way. Flanks are left wide open allowing fast lights to push through unopposed and decimate support TD's and Arty, then put remaining players in a pincer position and game over. Players getting into a bad position and refusing to back out a little and let a well placed TD or other tank knock some health off the enemy so the player can then kill it and move forward. It should be obvious after a few battles that with the reward system and bonuses a 'team win' offers more than just getting some decent damage and kills but the team losing....and yet they don't seem to care.  Players seem fixated on kills and nothing else. The result is a string of 15-5 or worse wipe outs and overall stats go down.

 

Going from the comments in game chat, general chat and forums it's leading to a huge amount of frustration and irritation, even some undiluted anger, among both new players and experienced players. Prob worse is a lot of players seem to have given up on it being a team game and decide to play for themselves and sod the rest. It's turning into Mario, and I'm guessing that's not where WOT intended it to go. I'm thinking there are two main flaws in the game.

 

1: New players are not learning the mechanics, maps, tactics and skills. Instead they're being hammered in games and thinking moving up to bigger more powerful tanks is the way to play and last longer. They're being lured into buying their way through and ending up in Tiers they have no skill to be in, amongst players who get justifiably annoyed at the little they contribute to the game and just end up losing them the battle. In a recent T5 game a player with a Premium Heavy clearly thought with greater armour and gun he could bash his way through, he lasted less than a minute before a TD took him to pieces, we lost a valuable tank and the game.  Looking at his stats afterwards he had 278 battle experience, his 'Hit Rate' was less than 30%. I hear of players like this making their way up to T7 and above, it must annoy the hell out of players who have worked their way to that level. 

 

2: Lower Tiers from 1 to 4 'appear' to be set up training Tiers. So what are seal clubbers contributing to them? They're not playing a 'team game', they're vastly over experienced with maxed out tanks and crews simply harvesting newbies. Most have presumably reached a point where they have amassed credits and XP so don't really need the paltry amounts awarded in these Tiers, so they're there for some ego massaging and to knock up additional medals and top guns. Don't get me wrong, I understand it's fun, I've even heard it called stress relieve for experienced players. But it's stress inducing for new ones and is leading to the problem above, so really doing them no favours in the overall game play. These guys can appear to play gungho because they have the experience and tanks to do it and get away with it, new players are trying to copy them but without having either of those attributes to carry it off, end result is just more bad games.

 

I'm no Developer or Programmer,  but after 10 years and the advances in software, the money they've made from the game and the data they must have collected I'm sure WG could turn this game back into something every player seems to want it to be, and not a stress factory. Be interesting to hear what your thoughts on these ideas are, not perfect maybe, but as a starting point for development. I know you'll probably say some of this is already in game, but I think it needs refocusing if the game is to improve and not just slide downhill where players eventually give up on it.  

 

1: When you load the game you get some training sessions. For a game of this complexity they're about as basic as you can get. Develop more advanced training. Teach the roles of each 'type' of tank, strategies for playing them, map tactics and how to use your tank to support the team or get support from them, maybe in a sort of constructed role play mode where it can re-set so you have another go to get it right. Restrict new players moving up Tiers until they've gained at least a certain level of experience to do so, beyond just accumulating credits and XP to be able to buy the next tank. To start at Tier 1 and then be able to buy gold and get a Premium Tier 5 or above is ridiculous. I know these topics are covered on the WOT site and in YouTube, but the YouTube players are advanced players. Newcomers are not going to get away with some of the stuff they do, and most want to get 'into' the game and at the start stage and won't sit and study pages of data and tactics. So build it into the game play. It's less frustrating and off putting spending a few more hours in each Tier in a constructed learning system than being knocked out 20-30 secs into each game and it would help get rid of the idea that a good tank makes a good player.

 

2: Instead of allowing highly experienced players to turn new comers into cannon fodder, restrict their maxed out tanks and crew to an average level for that Tier so they have to use their knowledge and not just an OP tank and crew, but create a reward system for them for coming into lower Tiers and passing on that knowledge. A kinda 'sponsor a newby' if you like. They're blocked from say Tier 1 / 2 where newcomers are basically learning how to handle their tanks and with a better training system are learning what their best game play is. At Tier 3 / 4 they're identified by a marker as experienced players in the line up so newer players in their team can watch the tactics they use, how to use the map, how to best position for the tank they're in etc. A click and request system so new players can ask an experienced player to help them in game, if accepted a separate chat option becomes available so they can communicate in game and after for analysis. Experienced players can still rack up their kills, so still fun, but are gaining reward for doing it in a different way and hopefully can take more satisfaction from knowing they are improving the game overall.

 

 

 

 



tank276 #2 Posted 12 March 2020 - 05:54 PM

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"Instead of allowing highly experienced players to turn new comers into cannon fodder"

Experienced players dont really play tiers 2 or 4, apart from the odd seal clubber.

You have a point in general, the game lucks some useful tutorials



Homer_J #3 Posted 12 March 2020 - 06:07 PM

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The thing is, all these "fatal flaws" you tak of have been there for over ten years.  Which might suggest they are not so fatal.

 

The tutorial wasn't even there for the first couple of years and I've gone through it a couple of times recently and it does actually teach you the most important stuff to get you through the first tiers.  Trouble is most people will do what they do with any forced training and rush through it as fast as possible learning nothing much.  Make it longer and more in depth and people simply won't complete it.

 

And fear not, get yourself into the higher tiers and you will find all the campy gameplay you ever wanted.  I wager you will be back complaining about that in a few months.



zigzag101 #4 Posted 12 March 2020 - 06:12 PM

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View Posttank276, on 12 March 2020 - 05:54 PM, said:

"Instead of allowing highly experienced players to turn new comers into cannon fodder"

Experienced players dont really play tiers 2 or 4, apart from the odd seal clubber.

You have a point in general, the game lucks some useful tutorials

 

Last game I played on Tier 4 one player on red wrecked havoc on our team. Hit just about every tank and took 10 kills. Obviously knew the map inside out and played it perfectly. Stats showed he had just over 127,000 battles. When I've looked at stats after games in Tier 3 and 4 I'm seeing half the players with over 25-30,000 battle experience, at certain times of the day you regularly see players in these Tiers with upwards of 60,000. So I'm guessing seal clubbers are not just the 'odd' one. Like I said, I understand the fun they get from it, but along with better tutorials for newbies I think they could perform a much better function that just harvesting kills.



zigzag101 #5 Posted 12 March 2020 - 06:28 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 12 March 2020 - 06:07 PM, said:

The thing is, all these "fatal flaws" you tak of have been there for over ten years.  Which might suggest they are not so fatal.

 

The tutorial wasn't even there for the first couple of years and I've gone through it a couple of times recently and it does actually teach you the most important stuff to get you through the first tiers.  Trouble is most people will do what they do with any forced training and rush through it as fast as possible learning nothing much.  Make it longer and more in depth and people simply won't complete it.

 

And fear not, get yourself into the higher tiers and you will find all the campy gameplay you ever wanted.  I wager you will be back complaining about that in a few months.

 

I'm not complaining about any of it. I think the game is prob one of the best on the market. The fact that you seem to be complaining about 'campy gameplay' at higher Tiers though suggests you're not entirely happy with it, so my point is why not improve it.

The fact they put the tutorials in a couple of years after start up suggests they could see the problem developing, and yes they teach important functions but are still basic in terms of the overall game. So improve them. Making them part of a gameplay should let players have as much fun in them as in the actual game. If they see themselves and the game improve surely it would encourage less whining, rants and frustration?

Those who simply refuse to learn from it....well every game needs a little cannon fodder for fun doesn't it :rolleyes:



Homer_J #6 Posted 12 March 2020 - 06:34 PM

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View Postzigzag101, on 12 March 2020 - 05:28 PM, said:

 

I'm not complaining about any of it. I think the game is prob one of the best on the market. The fact that you seem to be complaining about 'campy gameplay' at higher Tiers though suggests you're not entirely happy with it, so my point is why not improve it.

 

I'm not complaining, just pre-empting based on what I see people moan about every day.

 

I really don't think there is anything worth adding to the tutorial, if people want to learn then there are tutorials out there and the kind of person who wants to learn will find them.  The ones who don't won't learn if they are forced to.

 

As for the 127,000 battle seal clubber.  Next time you have one on your team then learn from them.



Nishi_Kinuyo #7 Posted 12 March 2020 - 06:40 PM

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Yes, there's flaws.

Yes, some of them are bad (and being worked on currently).

But I'm not sure I'd call them fatal.

 

For example, low tiers are currently in a bad position, imo, since they typically have too high damage output for the hitpoints you have at those tiers.

Take the Type 89 I-Go as an example, when firing high explosive shells, it has enough theoretical average damage to kill itself 12 times per minute.

Which means that making any sort of mistake at those tiers can be punished quite harshly.

So the current plans of increasing the hitpoints of all tanks at those tiers should mean that players at those tiers can actually afford to make those mistakes, and learn from it during battle instead of being sent back to garage.

 

One of the bigger issues, imo, is the typical player's lack of interest to improve their skills at the game entire.

And that is an issue of player mentality, rather than ability, and not something wargaming can readily improve upon.



Alukat123 #8 Posted 12 March 2020 - 06:42 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 12 March 2020 - 06:07 PM, said:

 

And fear not, get yourself into the higher tiers and you will find all the campy gameplay you ever wanted.  

 

I actually wish my teammates would camp more often instead of pushing alone into 4-6 enemies... those teams with 5-7 people suicide pushing within the first 2 minutes aren't good...


Edited by Alukat123, 12 March 2020 - 06:43 PM.


zigzag101 #9 Posted 12 March 2020 - 07:12 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 12 March 2020 - 06:34 PM, said:

 

As for the 127,000 battle seal clubber.  Next time you have one on your team then learn from them.

 

Wow, the number of times I hear that said. Wisdom dispensed from the Gods; how humble it makes us feel.



Wreckedum #10 Posted 12 March 2020 - 07:24 PM

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I would like to say it is more sensible at higher tiers, but it's not really. I find that weekends, school holidays, after school and before bed time it's worse - and also worse for clown cars. Also for some reason it is easier to make progress in weekday mornings  - no clue why though

mtnm #11 Posted 12 March 2020 - 10:56 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 12 March 2020 - 06:34 PM, said:

As for the 127,000 battle seal clubber.  Next time you have one on your team then learn from them.

 

A moderator promoting seal clubbing. :great:



Zmaj72 #12 Posted 12 March 2020 - 11:36 PM

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View Postmtnm, on 12 March 2020 - 09:56 PM, said:

 

A moderator promoting seal clubbing. :great:


Well to do anything else would imply criticsm of WG and threaten the Gold supply from them

 



Balc0ra #13 Posted 13 March 2020 - 12:38 AM

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1: There are plenty of video tutorials about advanced game mechanics etc on WOT's youtube channel. It's even shown in the 2nd tutorial. But just because it's there, don't mean everyone cares about it. Most skip it I suspect for more tutorials to make an impact.

 

2: There is always a bigger fish. And on tier 4, half the people you face a clubbers, the other half new. And when two clubbers meat? Well...

 

1... again: Again... If there was advanced tutorials, most would still not take it. That and map tactics etc that WG puts up in their videos are by now completely useless. As the meta changes constantly for anything valuable to be learned from such tutorials. The best way to learn in this game is simply to make mistakes when playing and learn from it. WOT has a steep learning curve, no doubt about it. Most still learn new things after 10K games. You are not gonna make a new player good at all the maps etc with less than 1K games anyway with a few extra tutorials. Buying their way up or not.

 

2... again: Restricting players that put time on low tier crews, even more so as there are a few that only has battles in tier 1 to 4. If they were restricted suddenly, they might get up and leave. So tbh it's the wrong way to approach it. As a new player won't do much better with a fully kitted out tank with 6 crew skills, vs an experienced player with 100% base crew that knows the map and mechanics to make a massive difference. Even less so if they are on even ground. As some gaps due to other aspects will always be there.

 

But back in the day we had something called protective MM. As in anyone on tier 3 and lower that had less than 2500 battles. Would not face a guy in his Pz 1c with 50K battles. They played with each other. The downside of that was that new and bad played with new and bad and did not learn common mistakes or the metas. Meaning that once they got to higher tiers out of protective MM. The meta was different, and they suffered more for it. But with a few tweaks, it can come back to protect low tiers again, vs restricting it.



Slyspy #14 Posted 13 March 2020 - 01:37 AM

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View Postmtnm, on 12 March 2020 - 10:56 PM, said:

 

A moderator promoting seal clubbing. :great:

 

Is that really what he is doing?

 

Besides seal clubbing is hardly against the rules. 



HassenderZerhacker #15 Posted 13 March 2020 - 05:06 AM

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View Posttank276, on 12 March 2020 - 05:54 PM, said:

"Instead of allowing highly experienced players to turn new comers into cannon fodder"

Experienced players dont really play tiers 2 or 4, apart from the odd seal clubber.

You have a point in general, the game lucks some useful tutorials

 

You would be surprised.

In my lower tier battles, there were an average of 1 to 2 unicums per battle, camping behind in an FCM or whatever OP tank they chose.

Add in the odd but regularly occurring platoon of 3 unicums sealclubbing with 3 Pz I C or 3 Pz II J, or Pz B2 at tier 4, and you got the perfect recipe for disgusting gameplay.

At tier 5, unicum camper-clickers in LeFH make your day perfect.



1ucky #16 Posted 13 March 2020 - 07:09 AM

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View Postzigzag101, on 12 March 2020 - 06:28 PM, said:

(...)

Those who simply refuse to learn from it....well every game needs a little cannon fodder for fun doesn't it :rolleyes:

Well the game's already like that right now. :)

And yes it's flawed, like all of us players are, and then some...

But is it "fatal" / too flawed?

I think that's just a matter of personal opinion/preference.

People either like the game or not.

In my opinion it's a pretty well made game and it doesn't need a million extra hours of tutorials. Or even if it does, you can get all of those extra hours from external sources.

 

Anyway, however flawed the game design might be, it's certainly true that a large part of the game experience (aka all of the gameplay) is made up by/of the players themselves. (Bar some thousands of bots, perhaps...) Therefore, the game is largely what we make of it. Possibly even more so than whatever WG does.



rhytmiser #17 Posted 13 March 2020 - 08:56 AM

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Play stupid games win stupid prizes and frustration:))

bbmoose #18 Posted 13 March 2020 - 09:06 AM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 12 March 2020 - 05:40 PM, said:

One of the bigger issues, imo, is the typical player's lack of interest to improve their skills at the game entire.

And that is an issue of player mentality, rather than ability, and not something wargaming can readily improve upon.

 

This is the biggest problem though.



Player_2844342757 #19 Posted 13 March 2020 - 09:26 AM

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Not many players play low tiers, simply because the game tutorial carries you through early tiers, gives you a starter crew and equipment, and a free tier 6.

As for calling anyone with experience a seal clubber, grow the hell up.
Its a game, and players are entitled to play tanks they like regardless of tier.

Sure you will get some exceptions, 20k in a tier 2 TD is mental, but 2k games in a tier 1/2/3 is just preference. Its a game.

And if your going to call that seal clubbing, what do you call experienced players in the better tier 8/9's with 2k plus battles in individual tanks with 7 skill crews, bond equipment, 60% plus win rates and 50k battles when the majority of enemies are still grinding those tiers in the tier 10 arms race with 500 wn8 and lower.

Personally I think below tier 6 is where the playing field is reasonably well balanced and the benefit from experience and kit less pronounced.

Homer_J #20 Posted 13 March 2020 - 10:01 AM

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View Postmtnm, on 12 March 2020 - 09:56 PM, said:

 

A moderator promoting seal clubbing. :great:

 

I don't have any issue with seal clubbing.

 

The way I see it the alternatives are worse, low tier 5v5 battles with other headless chickens learning bad habits or fill the games up with bots which will either be too good or again teach bad habits.






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