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Crusader R.I.P?

Crusader moving to tier 6

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Tramp_In_Armour #1 Posted 24 March 2020 - 11:49 PM

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So apparently, in patch 1.9, the Crusader will become a light tank and move to tier 6. I know a lot of people don't like the Crusader and so won't care, but I have a soft spot for mine, and it's the only tier 5 I kept. But at tier 5 it's already fairly sluggish and nowhere near as nimble as the Cromwell at tier 6. It has okay pen and poor alpha. And no armour. But when it moves up to tier 6? OMG, even having a few more hit points won't save it if it retains the same engine power and gun. Having better camo on the move won't save it either. Has anyone played a changed version of this on supertest? Will it get any buffs to cope at tier 6, or will it just be a free exp sink that everyone will want to quickly forget (in a line that most people will want to quickly forget too)? The thought of playing this in its present form against other T6-T8 lights makes me mourn its death already.

Edited by Tramp_In_Armour, 25 March 2020 - 12:31 AM.


Balc0ra #2 Posted 24 March 2020 - 11:57 PM

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It was a light back before they did change it to a medium back in 9.18 iirc. Just before you joined. Back then it was faster and more agile, and had LT camo.

 

If it will be as nimble as the old crusader I did love back in the day, and have camo on the move. I welcome it, even one tier up. And no, the super test version was more or less the same tier 5 with more HP. Not many tanks were changed for their new roles on that test tbh. As that focus was just on the HP and tech tree changes, vs his role change.



Makroros_The_Arty_Magnet #3 Posted 25 March 2020 - 03:47 AM

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This is a game about tanks. It was created as a WW2 tank arcade-simulator.
It was inspired by WW2 authentic tanks like Shermans, T-34s and PZIVs and also, Crusaders.

This is how it gained playerbase in the very first place (also, being F2P game in Russia, where folks don't have money for paid games)

I own Crusader tank and many many low tier historical tanks, because I like WW2 tanks.
This is why I downloaded and installed this game about WW2 tanks.

WG, will You stop Ffing with original player base please?
02:54 Added after 6 minute

View PostBalc0ra, on 24 March 2020 - 10:57 PM, said:

It was a light back before they did change it to a medium back in 9.18 iirc. Just before you joined. Back then it was faster and more agile, and had LT camo.

 

If it will be as nimble as the old crusader I did love back in the day, and have camo on the move. I welcome it, even one tier up. And no, the super test version was more or less the same tier 5 with more HP. Not many tanks were changed for their new roles on that test tbh. As that focus was just on the HP and tech tree changes, vs his role change.


Crusader, a medium tank weights 20T, it would become Tier6 light tank, leading to Tier7 light Setter, weighting 7T, ending with a Tier10 weighting 12T...
Doesn't fit. And it wasn't a light tank design. But a medium tank, or cruiser tank. It lead to developement of Cromwell and Comet. Not hard to google that.



DaniulSims #4 Posted 25 March 2020 - 05:33 AM

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View PostMakroros_The_Arty_Magnet, on 25 March 2020 - 04:47 AM, said:

This is a game about tanks. It was created as a WW2 tank arcade-simulator.
It was inspired by WW2 authentic tanks like Shermans, T-34s and PZIVs and also, Crusaders.

This is how it gained playerbase in the very first place (also, being F2P game in Russia, where folks don't have money for paid games)

I own Crusader tank and many many low tier historical tanks, because I like WW2 tanks.
This is why I downloaded and installed this game about WW2 tanks.

WG, will You stop Ffing with original player base please?
02:54 Added after 6 minute


Crusader, a medium tank weights 20T, it would become Tier6 light tank, leading to Tier7 light Setter, weighting 7T, ending with a Tier10 weighting 12T...
Doesn't fit. And it wasn't a light tank design. But a medium tank, or cruiser tank. It lead to developement of Cromwell and Comet. Not hard to google that.

The British classification for tanks doesn't fit the normal Light/Medium/Heavy classification we use. And quit the crap - is the Cruiser III a medium? Or the Covenanter? No. They're lights. Same as the Cruiser I & II are more akin to heavy tanks in mobility but are still considered "Cruiser Tanks", and thus given the light tank role (last I checked?) to better fit with the other Cruiser Mks.. 

 

And weight is as much of a null factor as any other. A lot of German lights are incredibly heavy, and German mediums rival the heavies of other nations. 

 

It's also lovely playing a WWII game who's main rewards are and always were T62s, Pattons, IS7s, M103s, Leopards, so on and so forth, while also starting with WWI or inter-war tanks. So much for a WWII game, eh?

 

EDIT: TL;DR, what you think or like isn't what this game is.


Edited by DaniulSims, 25 March 2020 - 05:34 AM.


SastusBulbas #5 Posted 25 March 2020 - 06:16 AM

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View PostMakroros_The_Arty_Magnet, on 25 March 2020 - 03:47 AM, said:

This is a game about tanks. It was created as a WW2 tank arcade-simulator.
It was inspired by WW2 authentic tanks like Shermans, T-34s and PZIVs and also, Crusaders.

This is how it gained playerbase in the very first place (also, being F2P game in Russia, where folks don't have money for paid games)

I own Crusader tank and many many low tier historical tanks, because I like WW2 tanks.
This is why I downloaded and installed this game about WW2 tanks.

 

 

The game was NEVER just about WW2 tanks, a quick look at Google would tell you that, as far back as 2010 it was promoted as a 1930-1960 era tank game.

 

 



etody77 #6 Posted 25 March 2020 - 07:16 AM

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If Crusader receive the QF 6 pdr AT gun Mk. V......it's crusader revival

SuperOlsson #7 Posted 25 March 2020 - 07:21 AM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 24 March 2020 - 11:57 PM, said:

It was a light back before they did change it to a medium back in 9.18 iirc. Just before you joined. Back then it was faster and more agile, and had LT camo.

 

If it will be as nimble as the old crusader I did love back in the day, and have camo on the move. I welcome it, even one tier up. And no, the super test version was more or less the same tier 5 with more HP. Not many tanks were changed for their new roles on that test tbh. As that focus was just on the HP and tech tree changes, vs his role change.

They didn't change any of the parameters when they changed the designation from light to medium, though it may appear more sluggish today since a lot of the competition has become faster. Maybe camo/camo on the move was changed though

 

Though it will practically have been buffed since the last time it was a light, with teamdamage being turned off. No more can basecampers "punish" you for not doing your job of dying next to the enemy during early game. 



Slyspy #8 Posted 25 March 2020 - 08:31 AM

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I luked the Crusader as a tier five light. Then they nerfed it by making it a medium but didn't change anything else to compensate, making it a much worse T-34. Now it is to be a light again but a tier higher? As far as I can see the vehicle, in its current state is unsuited to that role at that tier. Do I have faith in WG to make appropriate changes when they up-tier them vehicle? No I do not. 

jabster #9 Posted 25 March 2020 - 08:37 AM

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View PostSlyspy, on 25 March 2020 - 07:31 AM, said:

I luked the Crusader as a tier five light. Then they nerfed it by making it a medium but didn't change anything else to compensate, making it a much worse T-34. Now it is to be a light again but a tier higher? As far as I can see the vehicle, in its current state is unsuited to that role at that tier. Do I have faith in WG to make appropriate changes when they up-tier them vehicle? No I do not. 


It would seem ideally suited to the role of a tier VI light i.e. a not very good medium.



Slyspy #10 Posted 25 March 2020 - 08:41 AM

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View Postjabster, on 25 March 2020 - 08:37 AM, said:


It would seem ideally suited to the role of a tier VI light i.e. a not very good medium.

 

True, the other tier six lights were butchered in the LT line changes. The VK lost the derp, the 59-16 lost the autoloader, the T37(?) became a worse version of the old Chaffee and the soviet one became a big fat lump. WG seem to hate variety within tech trees. 



Makroros_The_Arty_Magnet #11 Posted 25 March 2020 - 08:46 AM

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View PostDaniulSims, on 25 March 2020 - 04:33 AM, said:

The British classification for tanks doesn't fit the normal Light/Medium/Heavy classification we use. And quit the crap - is the Cruiser III a medium? Or the Covenanter? No. They're lights. Same as the Cruiser I & II are more akin to heavy tanks in mobility but are still considered "Cruiser Tanks", and thus given the light tank role (last I checked?) to better fit with the other Cruiser Mks.. 

 

And weight is as much of a null factor as any other. A lot of German lights are incredibly heavy, and German mediums rival the heavies of other nations. 

 

It's also lovely playing a WWII game who's main rewards are and always were T62s, Pattons, IS7s, M103s, Leopards, so on and so forth, while also starting with WWI or inter-war tanks. So much for a WWII game, eh?

 

EDIT: TL;DR, what you think or like isn't what this game is.


So much wrong in this post and arrogance I'll even respond.
You realize tanks need to fit within game convention, right?

Your opening "british classification of tanks" sounds as if you were an ultimate world authority British tanks and Britishness, and Britain in the 30's and 40's, despite tanks being a concept mere 20 year old, couldn't diffirentiate between light, medium and heavy models of tanks or armoured vehicles, along any other classification or role was, for example - "light infantry tank - infantry tank, but light, or a "heavy assault gun", "light cruiser tank", when comparing those vehicles between themselves. I think British are capable of getting the idea of a heavy and light tank. Ingame, we have classes we were given by WG. Soviet ISU-152 was artillery and ingame it is TD, so what?

"The British classification for tanks doesn't fit the normal Light/Medium/Heavy classification we use." followed by : "is the Cruiser III a medium? Or the Covenanter? No. They're lights."
So, which is it? Can we have light/medium/heavy for British tanks or can we not?

First world's tanks by definition, at their time were all "heavy" because they were such a heavily armoured military vehicles. A horse or an Orc in comparison, had much less armour than a tank. In the tech tree however, they are placed as first tanks, and, usualy "lightest" tanks in terms of armour and overall crappiness compared to "better", higher tier tanks. Should tier 1 tanks all be "heavy" tanks because they are slower than hither tier tanks? Or should they all be light tanks because they have little to no armour? I guess it is a good thing WG decided for us long ago.
 

WG decided to create classes based on (among others) speed (manouverability), weight and armour thickness, compared to other respective tanks in game. Starting with 2 nations. Soviet, German, (and they added American in 0.6something). Thats where classes came from in this game. It was easy - put German and Soviet tanks in columns and voia'la!


"Same as the Cruiser I & II are more akin to heavy tanks in mobility but are still considered "Cruiser Tanks", and thus given the light tank role (last I checked?) to better fit with the other Cruiser Mks.. "
Yeah, as already mentioned, game doesn't seem care much about infantry / cruiser tanks, or even knowing what is up with British tanks but since you do, following your logic:
since Cromwell was a follow up to Crusader, and Comet a followup to Cromwell, should those two be light tanks aswell? Should Centurion tank be the first tank in British line to be a "medium"? Then, I guess, since Tier 1 tanks are slow, they should be heavy tanks, leading towards faster medium, even faster light, then slower medium again? Try making a game like that. WG already made a real mess creating bazilion branches of British tanks, putting too many tanks named "cruiser". Including Matilda as medium, they didn't seem to care for infantry = heavy way of thinking. But at this specific line, going to Cromwell, WG put a pin and decided "right, from here is where those tanks will be medium". Unless you want to tell everyone what is the weight/armour/speed limit that classifies a tank as a light/medium/heavy tank.

"And weight is as much of a null factor as any other. A lot of German lights are incredibly heavy, and German mediums rival the heavies of other nations.:
- let's not complicate this point even further, we are talking British Light tanks, NOT German Mediums. And we're talking a specific light into medium line which includes cruiser ~20 ton tanks with simillarities in designs, that grown into Cromwell and so on, and try to uptier and make Crusader light, to go into  a complete alien new design starting with Setter? It would fit like the old Doomstar going from Turtle. They replaced it with Badger for a reason - it fits more. And when the game was being made it was armour not weight assigning class, so it didn't matter german "lights" were "physically" heavier. Because there was no physics.

"It's also lovely playing a WWII game who's main rewards are and always were T62s, Pattons, IS7s, M103s, Leopards, (yada...)"
T62's, Leopards, M103's weren't in the original game ofcourse, you "wot historian".
IS7 and T30 were Soviet and American response to Maus, which any amateur WWII tank fan knew had to be put in WWII tank game, and IS7 is very close in timeline to WWII, starting at 1945. Not to mention, Americans weren't even at the early game (although fairly early and I haven't seen game pre-US).
You think WG could leave Germany to be the only one with Tier IX and X and then market the game to the Russians? Game, being game, also needs to be balanced.
Patton is also a tank developed directly after WWII.
Most importantly though, your argument "this is not WWII game because 4 tanks at the end of the game aren't even WWII, nyaaaah" is hilariously thin. Sure, lets ignore the whole tech tree, lets ignore the whole grind, ignore what the player will be driving 95% of the time. Let's focus on what he will get after he finishes the game. Seems like you judged the book by its back cover.

"(...) while also starting with WWI or inter-war tanks."
It was also easy for WG to start with interwar, because they were well researched, historical, and aplenty. And guess what?
Those interwar tanks were used in WWII. No, seriously! On the 1st of September 1939 Germany, France and USSR didn't recieve a batch of brand new "made in 1939, last till 1945" tanks from Amazon! USA did.

"So much for a WWII game, eh?"
As mentioned, game is *CENTERED* around WWII since release. Who doesn't know what a T-34 or a Tiger was?
World of Tanks would be nowhere if they opened up with EBR's and Stridsvagns, unless you know better.
So yeah, pretty much "so much for a WWII tank game", since the very beginnings.
//Over time, as with many things that are successfull, it started growing and growing with new cra content.

"what you think or like isn't what this game is."
Seems like, is even less what you think it is.



Makroros_The_Arty_Magnet #12 Posted 25 March 2020 - 08:57 AM

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View PostSastusBulbas, on 25 March 2020 - 05:16 AM, said:

 

The game was NEVER just about WW2 tanks, a quick look at Google would tell you that, as far back as 2010 it was promoted as a 1930-1960 era tank game.

 

 


http://forum.worldof...update/#topmost

0.6 tech tree
https://www.youtube....h?v=bd8tq7IFHhw

For the love of god another technicality maniac.
1930's tanks and earlier - fought in WW2. I'll have U know tanks, planes, and military equipment do NOT autoupdate like a freaking Windows each week. And about the "1960's - we're talking 1950's and only at final Tiers", which I already answered earlier. Plus - many WWII games if not most include +- 10 years of spare time. TBH Patton was used up till 1990's, so... was it always "1930's-1990's tank game"? Nope it wasn't.

And "game was marketed as 1930-1960 so thats what it was"?
I for example found out about WoT because my Facebook kept flashing with adverts "1 tank beats 1 Ork, 1 tank beats 10 Orks, 1 tank beats 100 Orks", so I guess it was always also a fantasy mmorpg game.



DaniulSims #13 Posted 25 March 2020 - 09:55 AM

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Spoiler

 

You've made an absolute wall of text to...emphazise my point that the British designation doesn't fit WoT? Which is what I've said?

WG decided naught when they first introduced the game as most of the tanks then present had clear classification in their own countries' documets. An IS was a heavy, the Panther was designated as a Medium in German documents (and therein lies my previous statement - as the Panther would've much better suited the definition of a heavy under US & Soviet documets, to the point where I'm sure several US reports do indeed refer to it as a heavy), and this applied rather easily to the US, Germany and USSR even for inter-war and early war machinery, as each nation had already developed a doctrine of what makes a light, medium and heavy tank, most notably the USSR. 

True - there are some outliers, such as the SU-152 that you've mentioned and, later down the road, the Lorraine artillery pieces, which were planned to be used in direct fire mode, not the indirect fire mode SPG are used in-game. Yet guess what? These changes have been made for the sake of gameplay.

 

This approach was not as obvious when it came to the British tanks, since their classification methods conflict heavily with the US' and that used in the game, hence, again, adjustments had to be made for the sake of gameplay. The Cruiser III & IV alongside the Covenanter are treated as lights because they play as such, and would fit that doctrine under the US classification. The Cruiser I and II retain their status as lights mostly for the sake of continuity and to ease the crew swapping at lower tiers, something that's crucial as a newcomer since most tanks are light tanks in the early tears, and the same applies for the Valentine, albeit cases can be made that it should be reclassified as a heavy. 

The opposite is true for the Cromwell and Comet - they can't be classified as light tanks, despite them being Cruiser tanks under the British classification, because by '43 the British doctrine changed enough for them to not really be fulfilling the same role as the earlier tanks, especially as they were moving towards the concept of a Universal tank, which are mostly identified as medium tanks in the game.

 

I also am not defending the Crusader being uptiered and just being changed to a light. Yes, it is a minor buff since it'll keep it's camo on the move, but it shouldn't have been made a Medium in the first place, and it definitely shouldn't be uptiered.

 

And please - in 6.0 the game was hardly finished and Wargaming already said that they'd be adding even newer tanks to the roster, and that it's not WWII focused. It happens to be WWII centric because that's when most tanks were developed, and it doesn't progress further than the 60s because then we have to deal with mechanics that would not fit the game. That's a very moot argument from your side.

 

TL;DR The game needs generalizing, you don't understand that, and the game isn't only for WWII.



shikaka9 #14 Posted 25 March 2020 - 10:00 AM

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they trying everything, but Crusader is unkillable :trollface:

Makroros_The_Arty_Magnet #15 Posted 25 March 2020 - 10:23 AM

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View PostDaniulSims, on 25 March 2020 - 08:55 AM, said:

Spoiler


Yeah, I don't mind if Crusader is light or medium, neither apparently does WG (since they keep throwing it around), but they have to call the shots.
What I wrote at first is that I don't agree moving it into the same separate branch with Setter line. Cromwell should be evolution of Crusader, not Setter.

And what I don't like is that, when I find that I like a tank in current configuration, WG strolls in and reks it "because its low tier so nobody cares".

Yeah but some do care.

So, You don't disagree.
And so, the cruiser tanks can be both light and medium.
WoT is a WWII game that "grew" from its beginnings into semi-modern/fantasy/notevenatankbutcar tanks or else there wouldn't be new techtrees and the game would slowly die. They have to keep it fresh.

And I liked/feel nostalgic towards 0.6 or 0.7 (dont remember version number) WoT with only US/Germany/Soviets. I liked sounds and graphics so to each his own.
There was even an an actual LP/playthrough of early WoT (not a Twitch stream or random vids colledtion, but random US dude playing and updating his Jingles still has, and I like rewatch many of his old vid's when he first unlocked x and shows how it plays/ talking about it from a "fresh in-experience" point of view. When WoT itself was "wow" new and not things they keep trying to throw into the game nowdays.



Tilly042 #16 Posted 25 March 2020 - 11:39 AM

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View PostSlyspy, on 25 March 2020 - 07:31 AM, said:

I luked the Crusader as a tier five light. Then they nerfed it by making it a medium but didn't change anything else to compensate, making it a much worse T-34. Now it is to be a light again but a tier higher? As far as I can see the vehicle, in its current state is unsuited to that role at that tier. Do I have faith in WG to make appropriate changes when they up-tier them vehicle? No I do not. 

When I saw the impending changes, I did wonder if they were going to simply leave its characteristics as is or change it to reflect it now being a tier 6 light.  Like you, I don't think they'll do anything either which is a shame as I quite liked it.



wsatnutter #17 Posted 25 March 2020 - 11:42 AM

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I love my crusader 

Balc0ra #18 Posted 25 March 2020 - 12:58 PM

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View PostMakroros_The_Arty_Magnet, on 25 March 2020 - 03:47 AM, said:

This is a game about tanks. It was created as a WW2 tank arcade-simulator.
It was inspired by WW2 authentic tanks like Shermans, T-34s and PZIVs and also, Crusaders.

 

WOT was never a WWII focused tank game, or anything close to a tank sim. Or rather it never claimed to be as such. It has claimed to be a "what if" tank arcade game if anything. What if the T29 made it to Europe to face the Tiger. Or the IS-3 did not miss the war by a few days to face the Tigers. What if the T95 did see action, or the T57 HT did get more then a gun and turret made?

 

It just started with WWII tanks, as that's were the assets they had already from the rather successful RTS game. It did not take long before 50's and 60's tanks where there, as in well before me and you joined.

 

View PostTilly042, on 25 March 2020 - 11:39 AM, said:

When I saw the impending changes, I did wonder if they were going to simply leave its characteristics as is or change it to reflect it now being a tier 6 light.  Like you, I don't think they'll do anything either which is a shame as I quite liked it.

 

I hope it will get the old mobility back. And I suspect it will see some gun changes. If not it will be the worst pen tier 6 light. I also suspect it will see a ROF nerf. As 2400 DPM is pre LT nerf Type 64 levels. 

 



Slyspy #19 Posted 25 March 2020 - 01:47 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 25 March 2020 - 12:58 PM, said:

 

WOT was never a WWII focused tank game, or anything close to a tank sim. Or rather it never claimed to be as such. It has claimed to be a "what if" tank arcade game if anything. What if the T29 made it to Europe to face the Tiger. Or the IS-3 did not miss the war by a few days to face the Tigers. What if the T95 did see action, or the T57 HT did get more then a gun and turret made?

 

It just started with WWII tanks, as that's were the assets they had already from the rather successful RTS game. It did not take long before 50's and 60's tanks where there, as in well before me and you joined.

 

 

I hope it will get the old mobility back. And I suspect it will see some gun changes. If not it will be the worst pen tier 6 light. I also suspect it will see a ROF nerf. As 2400 DPM is pre LT nerf Type 64 levels. 

 

 

But they didn't change the mobility, just the class.



Makroros_The_Arty_Magnet #20 Posted 25 March 2020 - 01:49 PM

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View PostSlyspy, on 25 March 2020 - 12:47 PM, said:

 

But they didn't change the mobility, just the class.

Well, then... RIP.






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