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Giving Lights a purpose (while hopefully lowering toxicity)

Lights gameplay scouting toxicity

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SoupFork #1 Posted 31 March 2020 - 01:02 PM

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Lights (normal ones, not the freak physics defying wheelie bins for the fortnite teenagers) seem to have lost a lot of their purpose with the big nerf in the past, the changing meta and the introduction of the wheelie bins.

 

Theres also the matter of toxicity with people suiciding, not playing or generally being twats because XVM or the tank line up telling them there’s only a 49.7% chance they’ll win.  Anonimizer doesn’t help here as on average in the battles I’ve seen only 2-3 players using it per side per game.

  

What if we could address both with one solution:

Hide the enemy tank line up. Right now, every map has set points where each class “must” go and if anyone deviates there’s endless crying in chat. And since you can see which tanks the enemy team has exactly, you can predict with decent accuracy where they will go. But what if you didn’t know if their TD was a Grille or 268-4. What if you didn’t know if their top tier heavy was a Defender or Emil? What if you didn’t know anything. All you’d know was that their lineup would roughly mirror yours. 

 

You’d NEED your scouts to figure out not only where the enemy is going, but also which tanks they have exactly. It would open up a lot of opportunity for more creative, surprising gameplay, unpredictable results and no one whining at the start because they believe their team might have a 0.1% disadvantage compared to the other team.

 

My suggestion: 

- Hide the enemy tank line up, tanks are only known to your team once spotted.

- If needed, buff camo for LT (not wheelie bins) a few LT so they can be proper scouts again.

- Give LT extra XP for “identifying” a tank to encourage scouting.



gunslingerXXX #2 Posted 31 March 2020 - 01:07 PM

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I don't really see a big problem with lights, only perhaps the high viewrange of other tanks at tier 8+

 

Other than that I think it would be fun if you can not see the enemy team. With current MM the teams are quite even so based on your own team you know pretty much what to expect. 

 



TheJ4ckal #3 Posted 31 March 2020 - 01:17 PM

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This is one of the first intelligent sensible posts I have seen on here.

Mr_Burrows #4 Posted 31 March 2020 - 01:36 PM

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I like it, but make it happen only on "open" maps, like Stepped, Murovanka and so on. More closed in maps like Ensk would mean no use for this new feature.

 

On the other hand, a lot of toxicity can be avoided with chat turned off, and if we now only could get a second option to also turn of all map pinging... 



Galan7891 #5 Posted 31 March 2020 - 01:36 PM

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Tracked LTs are not competitive because most tanks can reach 450 without much effort and some MTs can even push beyond 500 with things like food and bond equipment.A T-1OOLT can get 470(or something )with food ,max crew ,bond equipment and directives a leo1 can get 530+ .

Even if you hide the enemy team line up scouting can be done by tanks that arent LTs due to the differences in stats ,or lack of, in view range camo and speed.What the WVs have done is that they have enough speed advantage( and only the higher tier WVs get that) to nulify the view range advantage some tanks that arent scouts have.



PointZero #6 Posted 31 March 2020 - 01:46 PM

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Open maps such as Malinovka/Prokhorovka - team A has a yolo wheelie that is able to spot 15 tanks before they get out of the base, regardless if he dies or not team A now knows the exact composition of the enemy team and where they are likely to be headed. Team B has a more cautious conventional scout who spots 6-7 tanks from one of the passive spots. More than half of the enemy team remains unknown and the team is harrassing & blaming the LT for not suiciding to find out more. Even if they both are traditional scouts, the team will get more info out of the one that suicides at the start and this will lead to even more abysmal scouting practices that we have in the game now especially if the suicider gets rewarded extra xp for his "effort".

 

City map - Any support tank / tank without substantial armor will camp even more than now since the enemy composition is unknown and you can't asses how much risks you can take and still get away with it, there's hardly any teamwork in randoms so it's not going to work out like it would in a well organized team battle for example. Team inbalance will play even a bigger role when you suddently run into JPE100 & 2x obj 268-4's that you didn't know of on the heavy lane while your team has Strv and 2 Grille-15's hiding in some irrelevant corner. If you can't predict that you will meet a T30 in that hulldown position you will start to play more cautiously > more camping.



SoupFork #7 Posted 31 March 2020 - 01:58 PM

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View PostPointZero, on 31 March 2020 - 01:46 PM, said:

Open maps such as Malinovka/Prokhorovka - team A has a yolo wheelie that is able to spot 15 tanks before they get out of the base, regardless if he dies or not team A now knows the exact composition of the enemy team and where they are likely to be headed. Team B has a more cautious conventional scout who spots 6-7 tanks from one of the passive spots. More than half of the enemy team remains unknown and the team is harrassing & blaming the LT for not suiciding to find out more. Even if they both are traditional scouts, the team will get more info out of the one that suicides at the start and this will lead to even more abysmal scouting practices that we have in the game now especially if the suicider gets rewarded extra xp for his "effort".

 

City map - Any support tank / tank without substantial armor will camp even more than now since the enemy composition is unknown and you can't asses how much risks you can take and still get away with it, there's hardly any teamwork in randoms so it's not going to work out like it would in a well organized team battle for example. Team inbalance will play even a bigger role when you suddently run into JPE100 & 2x obj 268-4's that you didn't know of on the heavy lane while your team has Strv and 2 Grille-15's hiding in some irrelevant corner. If you can't predict that you will meet a T30 in that hulldown position you will start to play more cautiously > more camping.


First paragraph, fair point, I hadn’t fully considered that. It would require a properly mirrored LT matchup to work in that case.  

  

Second paragraph: Campers will camp, even if (or especially if) they know in advance what they might be facing. I doubt there’s anything that can get hardcore campers to move.

Not even Arty /S

on the other hand, not knowing what’s ahead or “fog of war” is what adds an element of surprise and excitement to many other games.



PointZero #8 Posted 31 March 2020 - 02:09 PM

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View PostSoupFork, on 31 March 2020 - 03:58 PM, said:

on the other hand, not knowing what’s ahead or “fog of war” is what adds an element of surprise and excitement to many other games.

 

It would be a huge buff for glass cannon TD's with their high alpha and wargamings current trend of adding elevated positions overlooking the cap circles that offer soft cover, hard cover & 400m of no cover leading up to them.

 

In other games it then comes down to how do you react when you get faced by a surprise like that, what tactics do you use to get yourself out of the pinch but in this game once you find out there's 3 Skorpion G's in the bushes at the back you will find yourself in your garage and the only option as a player you could have done to prevent that is to "not play the game" and happily sit at the back of your base with the rest of your team.


Edited by PointZero, 31 March 2020 - 02:14 PM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #9 Posted 31 March 2020 - 03:51 PM

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It's a nice idea having hidden teams but people would just whine that WG are rigging the MM and hiding the teams to hide that they're doing it.

 

People like to whine.



bloke75 #10 Posted 31 March 2020 - 04:18 PM

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Credit to the OP , its a great idea .  But heres another . 

 

What about increasing the number of lights on each team ?   Instead of the  ( most common )  one light per team , why not 4 - 5  lights per team .  Some of the best games i've had in light tanks , is when the light tanks operated in " wolf packs "  on semi -open flanks .  Not only could you take care of  / outnumber enemy tanks , Tds etc  ,  you could also bump into enemy light tanks , thus having a fairer fight .  



Cobra6 #11 Posted 31 March 2020 - 04:30 PM

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Lights have problems with penetration and viewrange at higher tiers.

 

Due to the viewrange inflation their camo becomes largely obsolete, certainly with the map sizes we have and their artificially handicapped penetration at range makes it difficult to engage.

 

Lights are a range based class, all their strengths are range based (camo, viewrange and speed) so their guns should be viable long range weapons with lower alpha (but higher RoF) and same penetration as same tier mediums.

 

Cobra 6



Balc0ra #12 Posted 31 March 2020 - 04:48 PM

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View PostSoupFork, on 31 March 2020 - 01:02 PM, said:

My suggestion: 

- Hide the enemy tank line up, tanks are only known to your team once spotted.

- If needed, buff camo for LT (not wheelie bins) a few LT so they can be proper scouts again.

- Give LT extra XP for “identifying” a tank to encourage scouting.

 

- They did test hiding it once. It did not work out too well. Why? Because people were yoloing to "figure it out" instead.

- I fail to see how giving more camo to my 36% 13 90 will make everything better. It's still more then enough to get to good spots early without getting spotted. If it was 45% etc, just to be way more then wheels. Then all it will do is make tracked lights yolo as hard as wheels. Why? Because they can get even closer before they get spotted. And thus Steve will get more "brave". And do we really need a 30+% camo T49 derp? Just to make it better than wheels?

 

- They already do. It's called a fist spot bonus, and arty gives a 2x bonus. If it was bigger, it would only work if you survived, and won. If not, then Steve would yolo the enemy base, get 12 first spots to "identify" and die instantly. And that's that 400 XP min saved for no effort.



PointZero #13 Posted 31 March 2020 - 04:52 PM

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View Postbloke75, on 31 March 2020 - 06:18 PM, said:

Credit to the OP , its a great idea .  But heres another . 

 

What about increasing the number of lights on each team ?   Instead of the  ( most common )  one light per team , why not 4 - 5  lights per team .  Some of the best games i've had in light tanks , is when the light tanks operated in " wolf packs "  on semi -open flanks .  Not only could you take care of  / outnumber enemy tanks , Tds etc  ,  you could also bump into enemy light tanks , thus having a fairer fight .  

 

That's what the medium tanks are there for, when you are playing LT's you don't want to face an abundance of them because

A) enemy LT's are likely to counter you

B) you will have to compete with the LT's on your team for spotting assist

C) if there is no room to flank LT's really struggle to fill in the spots left open by not having a HT or MT there

 

Games with multiple LT's running around tend to be really chaotic where everyone else is constantly getting spotted, you can't get into a proper position because there's always someone to counter spot you and there's less HP in the game. Even though I like playing them I'd like to see them restricted to 2 per team because on most maps in this game that's just plenty to cover both flanks with sufficient scouting.



voodoospirit #14 Posted 31 March 2020 - 05:11 PM

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i don thave troubles with my lights, only T10 lights are more or less useless and meds can take their spot with many advantages.

SoupFork #15 Posted 31 March 2020 - 05:34 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 31 March 2020 - 04:30 PM, said:

Lights have problems with penetration and viewrange at higher tiers.

 

Due to the viewrange inflation their camo becomes largely obsolete, certainly with the map sizes we have and their artificially handicapped penetration at range makes it difficult to engage.

 

Lights are a range based class, all their strengths are range based (camo, viewrange and speed) so their guns should be viable long range weapons with lower alpha (but higher RoF) and same penetration as same tier mediums.

 

Cobra 6


100% agree with this. 



Gruff_ #16 Posted 01 April 2020 - 12:40 AM

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Fog of war, the mechanics of which are already in the game.  Wouldn't mind it being in random battles too, perhaps even as a random occurence, it might extend the games duration a bit.  Lights did get rather shafted when they opened up tier 9+10 versions and changed the scout mm, I prefer the old versions

Ilknur_Ibryam #17 Posted 01 April 2020 - 05:38 AM

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We need better pen and rate of fire for lights and perhaps a buff in HE, so they can track easier in close quarters.





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