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Rebalance of Tigers in the German tree, and their French equivalents

Tiger I Tiger II ACL 1 Germany Heavy Tanks Historical

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Poll: Rebalance of Tigers in the German tree, and their French equivalents (8 members have cast votes)

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Do you generally agree with Henschel Tigers changes?

  1. Yes, they are good, irrevelant of other changes. (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  2. Yes, they are good, but only if at least some other changes are introduced as well. (2 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  3. I have some doubts - *comment* (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Nope! (2 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  5. Neutral (3 votes [37.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

Do you generally agree with Porsche line changes

  1. Yes, they are good, irrevelant of Henschel line changes. (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  2. Yes, they are good, but only if Henschel line changes. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. No, but Henschel line should change anyway. (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  4. No, neither. (2 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  5. I have a different proposal - *comment* (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  6. Neutral (3 votes [37.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

Do you generally agree with French line changes?

  1. Yes, they are good! (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  2. They are good only if implemented with one or more of German lines changes, otherwise nope. (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  3. No, but I opt for at least one change in German trees, (2 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  4. NO! And forget about German line changes too! (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. It's more complicated - *comment* (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  6. Neutral (3 votes [37.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

Do you agree with Tank Destroyers changes?

  1. Yes, implement them, no matter what happens to HT. (3 votes [37.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

  2. Yeah, but after changes to HT. If they ever happen. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. No! Changes to HT are enough. (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  4. NO! Both this and HT changes shouldn't ever happen. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. I have yet another opinion - *comment* (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  6. Neutral (3 votes [37.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

Who do you think these changes will benefit?

  1. Both players and WG (2 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. Only players, WG would lose on that. (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  3. That'd profit WG at cost of true fun of players. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. The whole idea will benefit no one. Get out of here! (1 vote [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  5. It's complicated, let me explain - *comment* (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. I don't know for sure! (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. I have no idea at all! (4 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

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PpanCzerny #1 Posted 03 April 2020 - 02:25 PM

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I came up with an idea about German heavy tank line changes, generally focused on several "Tiger" tanks,


1. Current status:

In World of Tanks, Tiger I's prized historical armour faces far more advanced adversaries - T29 designed to face King Tiger, IS-2 developed 2 years afterwards as direct counter to Tiger I, AMX M4 designed in '45, et cetera and ceases to do its job to effectively bounce shots - even vehicles from tier V can get through the Tiger.

Similiar issue applies to Tiger II - its turret armour is significantly lacking, and majority of its counterparts are post-war tanks, like IS-3, Caernarvon or advanced AMX 50 100 with autoloader and oscilating turret. Other Bloc's heavy tanks are its Porsche redesign (VK 45.02A) or flatout superheavy monsters.
Both tanks have to compensate these disabilities with guns that were never used on them in real life.
Also, several newbies start off with E 100 Line, due to said legendary tigers - and they either dramatically misuse them or are very disappointed by their fire support roles. 


2. Changes of German vehicles' proposal:

a) My idea is to put Henschel's Tiger I and Tiger II at tier VI and VII respectively, and make their historical guns the top configurations. The VK 36.01 would be kicked out of the tree into premium/special/collectioner list (and maybe become medium again), and tier VIII could be occupied by "Tiger II 10.5cm" with two loaders (10.5cm had a two-piece ammunition), stronger engine, and provisional armour enhancement.
The price would come in speed and DPM - engines of "new" vehicles would have decreased power, as they tended to wear out when going at full power very quickly. The ground resistances could receive a nerf as well. Resulting vehicles would be slow, unmanuverable vehicles with reliable armour made for angling and gun effective in combat on all distances, close or long.
Also, heavy armour would be much more consistent with thick plating of German super-heavy tanks later on.


b) The same changes would apply to VK 3001 P, Tiger P, VK 45.02 P A, VK 45.02 P B (first true sidescraper with 10.5mm top gun), and the Panzer VII would be split into "early" and "late" versions to tier IX and X, with "late" being unchanged and "early" receiving old VKs guns, worse terrain resistances, and amplified weakness of weakspots, and even VK 45 B's turret as stock.


c) Tank destroyers may, but don't truly have to, receive changes too - with Elefant being Tiger P -> Jagdpanther II bridge, akin to "new KV-2". Under such circumstances, Jagdpanther II would return back to the tree, and renamed Ferdinand with cupola on top as weakspot and 8.8cm L/71 as top gun shifted to tier VII. I don't insist hardly on this change, however.


Changes of French vehicles' proposal:

Role of typical "fire support" would more heavily fall to French heavy tanks, with one change - ARL 44 would become either premium, special, or collectioner tier VI tank, and ACL 1 with 60mm frontal armour and much better manuverability and gun soft stats would take its place.

AMX M4 45 and ACL 1 would lose the 105mm cannon, receive gun handling nerf on 90mms, but compensate with much better reload and aim time.


Justification:
In my opinion the modification, although radical, would benefit both players and Wargaming - numberous inexperienced Tiger-lovers would be much more likely to stay with the game, and the history-lovers in the game would be happy as well.
The VK 36.01 H and VK 30.01 P sold as premium tanks may directly benefit WG financially, too.


Disclaimer: I didn't say that Tigers are UP. I said that Tigers' role is far from typical role of heavy tank, and that is disappointing to many to have to play historical frontliners as fire support even when upgunned to be effective. 


Edited by PpanCzerny, 03 April 2020 - 03:28 PM.


arthurwellsley #2 Posted 03 April 2020 - 03:01 PM

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Did you even read the front page?

 

It shows Tigers are already in line for a buff.

 

 

 

<a href='https://ru-wotp.wgcdn.co/static/5.6.2_896aed/wotp_static/img/core/frontend/scss/common/components/widgets/content-tank/img/uk.png' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='external'style=https://ru-wotp.wgcd...tank/img/uk.png" class="transparent jetpack-lazy-image jetpack-lazy-image--handled" src="https://i2.wp.com/ru-wotp.wgcdn.co/static/5.6.2_896aed/wotp_static/img/core/frontend/scss/common/components/widgets/content-tank/img/germany.png?w=656&ssl=1" style="background:none repeat scroll 0% 0%;">   E 75:

  • The HP with the E 75 Ausf. A turret mounted was changed from 1,820 to 1,850 HP;
  • The HP with the E 75 Ausf. B turret mounted was changed from 1,920 to 1,950 HP;
  • The frontal armor of the E 75 Ausf. B turret has been improved from 252 to 280 mm.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39/43 shell for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 gun from 240 to 280.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40/43 shell for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 gun from 240 to 280.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,057 to 2,400.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr 43 shell for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 gun from 295 to 370.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,529 to 3,172.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39 L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/52 gun from 320 to 360.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40 shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/52 gun from 320 to 360.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,250 to 2,531.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/52 gun from 420 to 440.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,953 to 3,094.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39 L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/68 gun from 320 to 360.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40 shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/68 gun from 320 to 360.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,201 to 2,476.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/68 gun from 420 to 440.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,888 to 3,026.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39 shell for the 12,8 cm Kw.K. 44 L/55 gun from 490 to 530.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40 shell for the 12,8 cm Kw.K. 44 L/55 gun from 490 to 530.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 1,953 to 2,113.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr 18 for the 12,8 cm Kw.K. 44 L/55 gun from 630 to 670.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,511 to 2,671.

Edited by arthurwellsley, 03 April 2020 - 03:08 PM.


PpanCzerny #3 Posted 03 April 2020 - 03:35 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 03 April 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Did you even read the front page?

 

It shows Tigers are already in line for a buff.

 

 

 

<a href='https://ru-wotp.wgcdn.co/static/5.6.2_896aed/wotp_static/img/core/frontend/scss/common/components/widgets/content-tank/img/uk.png' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='external'style=https://ru-wotp.wgcd...tank/img/uk.png" class="transparent jetpack-lazy-image jetpack-lazy-image--handled" src="https://i2.wp.com/ru-wotp.wgcdn.co/static/5.6.2_896aed/wotp_static/img/core/frontend/scss/common/components/widgets/content-tank/img/germany.png?w=656&ssl=1" style="background:none repeat scroll 0% 0%;">   E 75:

  • The HP with the E 75 Ausf. A turret mounted was changed from 1,820 to 1,850 HP;
  • The HP with the E 75 Ausf. B turret mounted was changed from 1,920 to 1,950 HP;
  • The frontal armor of the E 75 Ausf. B turret has been improved from 252 to 280 mm.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39/43 shell for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 gun from 240 to 280.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40/43 shell for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 gun from 240 to 280.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,057 to 2,400.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr 43 shell for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 gun from 295 to 370.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,529 to 3,172.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39 L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/52 gun from 320 to 360.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40 shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/52 gun from 320 to 360.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,250 to 2,531.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/52 gun from 420 to 440.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,953 to 3,094.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39 L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/68 gun from 320 to 360.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40 shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/68 gun from 320 to 360.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,201 to 2,476.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/68 gun from 420 to 440.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,888 to 3,026.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39 shell for the 12,8 cm Kw.K. 44 L/55 gun from 490 to 530.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40 shell for the 12,8 cm Kw.K. 44 L/55 gun from 490 to 530.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 1,953 to 2,113.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr 18 for the 12,8 cm Kw.K. 44 L/55 gun from 630 to 670.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,511 to 2,671.

Yes, alpha damage is improved.
Armour on Tiger I and II still is not even remotely close to what it could do in real life. And I'm certain WG is not going to change buff armour values on such tanks, the only way to make it reliable is to de-tier the Tigers. (they might weaken Tiger II armour due to historical bad steel quality though! :ohmy:)
IRL Tigers faced stock tier Vs and massacred them, I know, and I know that it would be totally wrong to happen most of the battles.
But the most iconic heavy tank with armour described at best as "unreliable" and at worst as "utter paper" is something not right IMO. Japanese and 131 Tigers with historical tiger guns work OK at tier VI, no one moans about them being OP.
Or being UP either.
Tier VI is just right for the Tiger.


Edited by PpanCzerny, 03 April 2020 - 03:40 PM.


Homer_J #4 Posted 03 April 2020 - 03:42 PM

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The idea of moving Tiger and Tiger II down a tier has been suggested many many times.  It won't make them supertanks, we already have historical models of both at those tiers and they don't fare any better.  All you do is remove some gun options and make the line more boring and then introduce another made up tank to fill the gap.

 

Tiger and Tiger II are fine where they are, leave them be.



arthurwellsley #5 Posted 03 April 2020 - 04:36 PM

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View PostPpanCzerny, on 03 April 2020 - 02:35 PM, said:

Yes, alpha damage is improved.
Armour on Tiger I and II still is not even remotely close to what it could do in real life. And I'm certain WG is not going to change buff armour values on such tanks, the only way to make it reliable is to de-tier the Tigers. (they might weaken Tiger II armour due to historical bad steel quality though! :ohmy:)
IRL Tigers faced stock tier Vs and massacred them, I know, and I know that it would be totally wrong to happen most of the battles.
But the most iconic heavy tank with armour described at best as "unreliable" and at worst as "utter paper" is something not right IMO. Japanese and 131 Tigers with historical tiger guns work OK at tier VI, no one moans about them being OP.
Or being UP either.
Tier VI is just right for the Tiger.

 

As Howe J pointed out (a) this has been suggested many times, (b) it causes problems in the tiers (c.) it reduces module gun choice, and (d) requires a new fictional tier IX.

If you want a German Tiger at tier VI then buy a 131. Otherwise if you down tier the Tiger I to tier VI stock it must be inferior to the 131, and elite it must be about the same. Similarly there are already two Tiger II at tier VII both premiums. If the tier VIII is down tiered then it will have to be nerfed to match those two.

 

Frankly I much prefer WG's approach to yours. With buffs to Tiger II, E75 and E100 it is going in the correct direction.



Nishi_Kinuyo #6 Posted 03 April 2020 - 04:42 PM

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I'd rather that my VKP remains a tier 6 MT with 60km/h top speed... :izmena:

PpanCzerny #7 Posted 03 April 2020 - 08:02 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 03 April 2020 - 04:36 PM, said:

 

As Howe J pointed out (a) this has been suggested many times, (b) it causes problems in the tiers (c.) it reduces module gun choice, and (d) requires a new fictional tier IX.

If you want a German Tiger at tier VI then buy a 131. Otherwise if you down tier the Tiger I to tier VI stock it must be inferior to the 131, and elite it must be about the same. Similarly there are already two Tiger II at tier VII both premiums. If the tier VIII is down tiered then it will have to be nerfed to match those two.

 

Frankly I much prefer WG's approach to yours. With buffs to Tiger II, E75 and E100 it is going in the correct direction.

1. There is one premium Tiger II
2. German Tigers might have some changes, like better terrain resistances (regular track repairs), more accurate gun (better maintenance), slower aimtime (worn gun of captured premiums), more HP, better RoF (German desperation), slower turret turning (worn turret ring of captured premiums), worse sight (superior Allied optics), better/worse endurance against HEAT (spaced armor put on by one of the parties).
3. VK 3002 M already has 2 copies, French and Polish. Anyone cares?

View PostHomer_J, on 03 April 2020 - 03:42 PM, said:

The idea of moving Tiger and Tiger II down a tier has been suggested many many times.  It won't make them supertanks, we already have historical models of both at those tiers and they don't fare any better.  All you do is remove some gun options and make the line more boring and then introduce another made up tank to fill the gap.

 

Tiger and Tiger II are fine where they are, leave them be.

In skilled hands of skilled crews under command of skilled player, yeah, they are strong.

In hands of newbies flocking to them and using them on the first line, not so much.
About boredom, see point 2. above.


Edited by PpanCzerny, 03 April 2020 - 08:03 PM.


FatigueGalaxy #8 Posted 03 April 2020 - 09:35 PM

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Yes, down-tier Tigers for the sake of historical accuracy and put another fake to fill the gap in the tech tree. This is what I call "hypocrisy".

Btw. if yo think that Tiger's armour will become relevant at tier 6 - you are wrong. We already have tier 6 Tigers in the game and their armour still means nothing - they are just average, boring heavies (unlike tier 7 Tiger with the best firepower of all tier 7 heavies). So what's next? Tiger at tier 5 so it can fight Shermans and T-34s?

 

You can't get everything. You can either keep famous german firepower by buffing their guns (what WG is doing) or famous german armour by shifting the tech tree and introducing a fake tank at tier 8, 9 or 10. I think the first option is better, both for gameplay and for the sake of historical accuracy. German Tiger line with increased firepower will become relevant and we will keep semi-historical top tier vehicles.

Probably the best solution would be to down-tier Tiger and Tiger II and put a variant of Lowe (afaik there were a few projects and premium version is a mash-up of all of them) in its place on tier 8.

But WG won't accept fakes or copies in german tech tree. Why? Because this nation is extremely popular and they need something known and acknowledged in each tier, not fakes or doubles.

Be happy with firepower buffs and german heavies becoming relevant (and somewhat interesting heavies - especially if you value firepower over armour) again. If you want tier 6 historical Tiger - get yourself Tiger 131.



splash_time #9 Posted 03 April 2020 - 09:49 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 03 April 2020 - 05:01 PM, said:

 

<a href='https://ru-wotp.wgcdn.co/static/5.6.2_896aed/wotp_static/img/core/frontend/scss/common/components/widgets/content-tank/img/uk.png' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='external'style=https://ru-wotp.wgcd...tank/img/uk.png" class="transparent jetpack-lazy-image jetpack-lazy-image--handled" src="https://i2.wp.com/ru-wotp.wgcdn.co/static/5.6.2_896aed/wotp_static/img/core/frontend/scss/common/components/widgets/content-tank/img/germany.png?w=656&ssl=1" style="background:none repeat scroll 0% 0%;">   E 75:

  • The HP with the E 75 Ausf. A turret mounted was changed from 1,820 to 1,850 HP;
  • The HP with the E 75 Ausf. B turret mounted was changed from 1,920 to 1,950 HP;
  • The frontal armor of the E 75 Ausf. B turret has been improved from 252 to 280 mm.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39/43 shell for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 gun from 240 to 280.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40/43 shell for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 gun from 240 to 280.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,057 to 2,400.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr 43 shell for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 gun from 295 to 370.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,529 to 3,172.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39 L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/52 gun from 320 to 360.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40 shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/52 gun from 320 to 360.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,250 to 2,531.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/52 gun from 420 to 440.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,953 to 3,094.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39 L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/68 gun from 320 to 360.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40 shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/68 gun from 320 to 360.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,201 to 2,476.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr L shell for the 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/68 gun from 420 to 440.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,888 to 3,026.

For the top turret:

  • Changed damage of the AP Pzgr 39 shell for the 12,8 cm Kw.K. 44 L/55 gun from 490 to 530.
  • Changed damage of the APCR Pzgr 40 shell for the 12,8 cm Kw.K. 44 L/55 gun from 490 to 530.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 1,953 to 2,113.
  • Changed damage of the HE Sprgr 18 for the 12,8 cm Kw.K. 44 L/55 gun from 630 to 670.
    • The average damage per minute changed from 2,511 to 2,671.

 

Oh boy, E 75 is already a naughty tank, with these changes to turret armour, DPM and alpha?! It'll become the king of HTs tier for tier!! 

Speed, maneuverability, DPM, armour and alpha. Now I'm definitely going to re-buy this old lovely fella again!! :medal::izmena:

20:53 Added after 4 minute

View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 03 April 2020 - 06:42 PM, said:

I'd rather that my VKP remains a tier 6 MT with 60km/h top speed... :izmena:

 

Going to miss this little beast though, it lacks only 100 DPM than T-34-85M's DPM.

It has better turret armour, more speed, more gun depression and better VR. It'll be a pity. :mellow:



Balc0ra #10 Posted 03 April 2020 - 11:09 PM

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View PostPpanCzerny, on 03 April 2020 - 03:35 PM, said:

Armour on Tiger I and II still is not even remotely close to what it could do in real life.

 

Tbh Tiger has flat armor. It would need to be fairly thick to bounce of most shells he sees in this game, as he is a Tier 7 facing 105 and 122mm guns for the most part, vs 75 or 76mm on a stock M4. So you can't really balance it around armor when he is at that tier tbh.

 

Most of the guns the Tiger I did face when he got that reputation are more or less stock tier 5's in this game. The issue for the US guns in the early days was the subpar ammo they used vs it. They needed 3-5 M4's to close the distance vs it. Distract it and hope one survived long enough to get on his side. Usually losing 2-3 tanks. Then they got the M61 APCBC shell, and had a chance to pen him head-on at 500 yards. The issue still was tho, that Tiger could still hit them at over 3000 yards if he did see them first. But he was not invisible all the time. Even less so when he faced an IS-2 for the first time.

 

Tiger II's reputation is not super well documented to say how "bouncy" it was vs the commonly used US guns at the time. The Super Pershing that they say took one out at Dessau is a phantom. No number, no ID, no pictures.

 

 



_Carpaccio_ #11 Posted 04 April 2020 - 12:13 AM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 03 April 2020 - 10:09 PM, said:

 

Tbh Tiger has flat armor. It would need to be fairly thick to bounce of most shells he sees in this game, as he is a Tier 7 facing 105 and 122mm guns for the most part, vs 75 or 76mm on a stock M4. So you can't really balance it around armor when he is at that tier tbh.

 

Most of the guns the Tiger I did face when he got that reputation are more or less stock tier 5's in this game. The issue for the US guns in the early days was the subpar ammo they used vs it. They needed 3-5 M4's to close the distance vs it. Distract it and hope one survived long enough to get on his side. Usually losing 2-3 tanks. Then they got the M61 APCBC shell, and had a chance to pen him head-on at 500 yards. The issue still was tho, that Tiger could still hit them at over 3000 yards if he did see them first. But he was not invisible all the time. Even less so when he faced an IS-2 for the first time.

 

 

I wanted to write something like this :D  .Tier6 "historical tiger" armor is actually not that bad in good MM, and can bounce tier5s, some tier 6s, especially on long range, angled frontal armor + they already slighty buffed turret armor, or area around gun mantlet. 

 

Buffs proposed by WG seem pretty solid to me. Tiger I will be still support heavy but now with much better gun (It has decent gun, but 240 alpha just wont scare anyone apart from lower tiers), and again increased mantlet armor - Tiger I turret can even now sometimes troll and bounce, occasionally. Tiger II - we don't know how much they want to improve armor, but even that simple increase of alpha to 360 with that gun's accuracy and gun handling seems great. Somehow Tiger II works for me even these days, if you can keep that gun singing and remember you you can't rely on that armor too much and play it more safe, its not a horrible tank. Its just there are many tanks that can do just as well while also having some armor, hulldown, whatever. A welcome buff to armor would be some improvement of the turret and giving turret roof historical values so it could not be ovematched by 122 guns anymore. Its like even that 185 armor can bounce something if you hit gun mantlet, side areas, ... but if you play IS you can just simply overmatch roof and laugh at Tiger. 



Balc0ra #12 Posted 04 April 2020 - 01:07 AM

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View Post_Carpaccio_, on 04 April 2020 - 12:13 AM, said:

 

I wanted to write something like this :D  .Tier6 "historical tiger" armor is actually not that bad in good MM, and can bounce tier5s, some tier 6s, especially on long range, angled frontal armor + they already slighty buffed turret armor, or area around gun mantlet.

 

I suspect it's not easy to balance it around tier 5 either. Tier 6 is a great place for them to be superb at their role. Tier 7 was not a terrible idea either as such when you consider the few guns in the tech trees at that point, vs now.



_Carpaccio_ #13 Posted 04 April 2020 - 11:34 AM

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That's also a thing + there were more like open maps, or maps not neccessarily open but with more flanks where you could fight on longer range with something like Tiger I. Current Tiger I on T7 isn't  bad tank at tall, far from it, but it's something like a bad heavy in situation/map where you need brawling heavy. IS, KV-3, Black Prince, T-29, polish T7, they can all bounce damage on top tier, full T7, hulldown 29 and BP even when not. While Tiger I is like - you know you gonna die and you just try to make as much damage as you can. 

 

With BP, IS-2 for example I am happy for same tier or top tier battle, while with Tiger I, I actually prefer T7/8 battles where I don't have to take that role of heavy.


Edited by _Carpaccio_, 04 April 2020 - 11:37 AM.


Homer_J #14 Posted 04 April 2020 - 12:44 PM

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View PostPpanCzerny, on 03 April 2020 - 07:02 PM, said:

1. There is one premium Tiger II

Two, the Tiger II © and VK45.03

 

Quote

In skilled hands of skilled crews under command of skilled player, yeah, they are strong.

In hands of newbies flocking to them and using them on the first line, not so much.

If they were strong or even competetive in the hands of newbies then they would be OP.

 

They would be just as weak in the hands of newbies if they were balanced to fit a tier lower.

 

Moving them down the tech tree won't fix anything, we saw that with the Panther and Panther II, Panther used to be a perfectly decent highly mobile tier VIII with a decent gun which I really enjoyed playing but because the Panther II was perceived as weak as a top tier medium (back then meds only went to tier IX) it got shuffled down a tier and ruined.



PpanCzerny #15 Posted 04 April 2020 - 01:01 PM

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*reads multiple critical comments*

I begin to doubt. 

Anyway, the line definitely needs better tactics education for newbies at least...

View PostFatigueGalaxy, on 03 April 2020 - 09:35 PM, said:

Yes, down-tier Tigers for the sake of historical accuracy and put another fake to fill the gap in the tech tree. This is what I call "hypocrisy".

Btw. if yo think that Tiger's armour will become relevant at tier 6 - you are wrong. We already have tier 6 Tigers in the game and their armour still means nothing - they are just average, boring heavies (unlike tier 7 Tiger with the best firepower of all tier 7 heavies). So what's next? Tiger at tier 5 so it can fight Shermans and T-34s?

 

You can't get everything. You can either keep famous german firepower by buffing their guns (what WG is doing) or famous german armour by shifting the tech tree and introducing a fake tank at tier 8, 9 or 10. I think the first option is better, both for gameplay and for the sake of historical accuracy. German Tiger line with increased firepower will become relevant and we will keep semi-historical top tier vehicles.

Probably the best solution would be to down-tier Tiger and Tiger II and put a variant of Lowe (afaik there were a few projects and premium version is a mash-up of all of them) in its place on tier 8.

But WG won't accept fakes or copies in german tech tree. Why? Because this nation is extremely popular and they need something known and acknowledged in each tier, not fakes or doubles.

Be happy with firepower buffs and german heavies becoming relevant (and somewhat interesting heavies - especially if you value firepower over armour) again. If you want tier 6 historical Tiger - get yourself Tiger 131.

"Next"? Didn't I just say in the other comment that putting them to tier V would be stupid?

I said that Tiger should be at tier VI, where it would face "inferior Allied tanks" upgunned to take on it frontally while maintaining manuverability (Easy8, T-34-85, Firefly, Jackson) and/or uparmoured to the point of being able to bounce 8.8 shells (Jumbo, Churchill VII). 

VK 36.01 H is not very real tank, just like Tiger 10.5cm.
Heck, what we have right now is Tiger II 10.5cm, not historical Tiger II! Unless stock, and with this the "famed ability to penetrate every allied tank" exits through the window.

View PostHomer_J, on 04 April 2020 - 12:44 PM, said:

Two, the Tiger II © and VK45.03

 

Quote

In skilled hands of skilled crews under command of skilled player, yeah, they are strong.

In hands of newbies flocking to them and using them on the first line, not so much.

If they were strong or even competetive in the hands of newbies then they would be OP.

 

They would be just as weak in the hands of newbies if they were balanced to fit a tier lower.

 

Moving them down the tech tree won't fix anything, we saw that with the Panther and Panther II, Panther used to be a perfectly decent highly mobile tier VIII with a decent gun which I really enjoyed playing but because the Panther II was perceived as weak as a top tier medium (back then meds only went to tier IX) it got shuffled down a tier and ruined.

VK 45.03 is MUCH worse than Hijacked Bengal Tiger... look up the turret profile and the most importantly, frontal armour values. VK has 10cm front hull, HBT has 15cm. Turret of VK is also 10cm, HBT has robust 18cm.

But to make your argument true, then know that Tiger II (H) (German Tiger II moved to tier VII as premium tank) goes through testing. Yep, nothing makes it unique in any way unlike 131 (historical) or Rudy/Fury (films)

For the Newbie argument - IMO fire support role is more difficult to comprehend than "typical full-blooded HT", so I think they will preform better on downtiered Tigers than on their "fire support" variants.



murn123 #16 Posted 05 April 2020 - 10:06 AM

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I don't think downtiering is the right solution. Tiger 2 can be salvaged with a few buffs and  little imagination.

So tiger 2 buffs my way:

Give it the lowe gun with 360 alpha and keep the aim time and accuracy of 10.5/L68 gun. Also increase reload time by:

                                                                                                                                                                                            a second, making the new dpm 2298  (an increase of 150 dpm over tiger 1)

                                                                                                                                                                                            or half a second, making the new dpm 2182. (an increase of 30 dpm over tiger 1)

Improve gun dispersion from 0.12 to 0.10.

Increase view range from 390m to 400m.

Increase armor on top of the turret from 40mm to 45mm to prevent over matching. Increase armor above tracks from 25mm to atleast 35mm to prevent overmatching from guns with less than 105mm caliber.

Give an option to unlock the Maybach HL 234 TRM P45 (900 hp engine from E75).

 

I think this would make a tank really awesome sniper machine with 234mm of pen and apcr with 294mm. And to anybody who says guns from premium tanks should not be on normal tanks check out AMX M4 mle. 49

 

If you really want to go crazy you could also take the mantle from Löwe and give it to tiger 2, effectively giving tiger 2 frontal turret armor an additional 100 to 150mm. But then what do you do about e75 turret armor ?? Give it the same mantle? Also a lot of people would most likely complain since mantle of löwe could not work on tiger 2 turret and tiger 2 would lose its distinct look.


Edited by murn123, 05 April 2020 - 10:09 AM.


PpanCzerny #17 Posted 05 April 2020 - 04:20 PM

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View Postmurn123, on 05 April 2020 - 10:06 AM, said:

I don't think downtiering is the right solution. Tiger 2 can be salvaged with a few buffs and  little imagination.

So tiger 2 buffs my way:

Give it the lowe gun with 360 alpha and keep the aim time and accuracy of 10.5/L68 gun. Also increase reload time by:

                                                                                                                                                                                            a second, making the new dpm 2298  (an increase of 150 dpm over tiger 1)

                                                                                                                                                                                            or half a second, making the new dpm 2182. (an increase of 30 dpm over tiger 1)

Improve gun dispersion from 0.12 to 0.10.

Increase view range from 390m to 400m.

Increase armor on top of the turret from 40mm to 45mm to prevent over matching. Increase armor above tracks from 25mm to atleast 35mm to prevent overmatching from guns with less than 105mm caliber.

Give an option to unlock the Maybach HL 234 TRM P45 (900 hp engine from E75).

 

I think this would make a tank really awesome sniper machine with 234mm of pen and apcr with 294mm. And to anybody who says guns from premium tanks should not be on normal tanks check out AMX M4 mle. 49

 

If you really want to go crazy you could also take the mantle from Löwe and give it to tiger 2, effectively giving tiger 2 frontal turret armor an additional 100 to 150mm. But then what do you do about e75 turret armor ?? Give it the same mantle? Also a lot of people would most likely complain since mantle of löwe could not work on tiger 2 turret and tiger 2 would lose its distinct look.

Nice idea for new Tiger 10.5cm! :great:
If Tiger II gets downtiered, no one would complain about mantlet on it because "true" Tiger II is a tier below.






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