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The WoT Blog: 2020


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The_Salty_Kipper #1 Posted 28 April 2020 - 11:43 PM

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Hi, 

I would like to open a blog and write about my thoughts and experiences playing WoT (as an average player).

 

My thoughts are sometimes controversial and hopefully thought provoking, I would just like to discuss things in a discussion-friendly manner, I am not always correct in my assumptions, and I am open and honest to admit when I am wrong..  No Tin Hat foolery here though (well not too much at least.. haha ) 

 

Ok let's start with this: 

 


So my take is:  

 

I have often wondered how certain streamers and WG League players seem to be able to snapshot and hit/damage so often yet I have fully aimed in, and the shot misses or ricochets of the flat side of a VK 100.. 

 

Now I understand it more (it seems to be a well kept secret for so long.. why open it up now?) 

 

You see, WG have always said that the 25% RNG was the 'fun' part of WoT, you have unexpected hits/misses/bounces (my Conway bounced a HEAT round from a JPz E100 lol) but in reality, it doesn't matter, that fully aimed in shot has the same chance of missing as a quick snap shot? If the theory is to be believed, and what part does having extra equipment play? 

 

If the result of my next shot is purely based on an array of numbers, and I get the top one from the list, how does the server know if I have V-Stabs or not? How does it know if I am fully aimed in or its just a snapshot? 

 

Have I understood it wrong? Can someone explain differently? 

  • When firing at tanks: the server does not determine the value of an event at the moment when it occurs. The server calculates a hell of a lot of these values ​​in advance, such as the aiming circle size during firing, shell dispersion inside the circle, damage you will do, indicators for armor penetration, it normalizes all of this. When there is time and opportunity, there are millions of such rolls. And when some system says, “Give me a random value,” the server says, “Hold on.” From this collected lump, he provides one at a time. In a sense, each shot of ours in the battle has already been calculated somewhere, but since the order of occurrence of events when each player does something is unknown, this remains a random variable, despite that there’s already a sequence somewhere.
    Since in some sense these events have already occurred, we only determine the order of their occurrence in fact by chance, that is, from the action of a multitude of players at each moment in time.

  • When such data ends, the server still generates new ones.
    If you shot and did not hit, this does NOT mean that next time you should have better dispersion (the projectile should fly to the center). If you are unlucky with this sample, the shell, three, and four times in a row can deviate greatly from the center. There is no pattern.

    -There is no advantage in the battle and extra comfort if you have loaded premium ammo or are using (the boost you buy with bonds). Punishing a player for this is simply unprofitable, it will not pay off. There are no punishments in the game, and no one will ever do them. We fight on the server for every nanosecond of CPU time. This is a belief among old experienced players, it is very ancient.



SovietBias #2 Posted 29 April 2020 - 12:01 AM

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Most likely it isn't just one big array. It's a set of various arrays for different starting conditions.

 

The idea is to save some computing power, not to rig your RNG. Someone more proficient in game code might help.

 

From another thread:

View Postevilchaosmonkey, on 28 April 2020 - 06:37 PM, said:

 

I think it just means that arrays are created of all the variables for firing before battle starts - these being all random.  You are then given the next in the queue from the arrays when it comes to your turn to fire.

This way they don't have to do calculations on the fly, just read values from an array.  It's an old game writers trick where you want to squeeze every last cycle out of the game engine.  Spare cycles equates to being able to do better graphics etc.  Think of it as just optimising the code to run faster.


Edited by SovietBias, 29 April 2020 - 12:35 AM.


malowany #3 Posted 29 April 2020 - 12:07 AM

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Hey,

 

Honestly, I never got into the RNG of the aiming, it's just too tedious. From my very limited understanding of this mechanism, I would assume that server must know this, it would be insane if it didn't differentiate between full speed snapshot and fully aimed shot and it would show in-game no doubt, everyone would be zooming around shooting left and right, I personally don't remember last time I hit something further than close range while on the move.

 

As for the blog part. As much as I hate discouraging people you have to realise that this is a 10 years old game, and there aren't really any hot takes left to have, apart from new events and premium tanks, everything else has been discussed to death, save for very occasional game mode or game mechanic like cars. You might not get any discussion out of anyone simply because people are tired of discussing the same stuff for 10 years and the influx of new players is rather limited, especially on the forum.

 

So just don't get disappointed if no one is willing to follow a blog about WOT in 2020. Unless you are doing it purely for your own amusement then have at it. Or maybe I am completely wrong and a blog is exactly what people want these days.



The_Salty_Kipper #4 Posted 29 April 2020 - 12:33 AM

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View Postmalowany, on 29 April 2020 - 12:07 AM, said:

Hey,

 

Honestly, I never got into the RNG of the aiming, it's just too tedious. From my very limited understanding of this mechanism, I would assume that server must know this, it would be insane if it didn't differentiate between full speed snapshot and fully aimed shot and it would show in-game no doubt, everyone would be zooming around shooting left and right, I personally don't remember last time I hit something further than close range while on the move.

 

As for the blog part. As much as I hate discouraging people you have to realise that this is a 10 years old game, and there aren't really any hot takes left to have, apart from new events and premium tanks, everything else has been discussed to death, save for very occasional game mode or game mechanic like cars. You might not get any discussion out of anyone simply because people are tired of discussing the same stuff for 10 years and the influx of new players is rather limited, especially on the forum.

 

So just don't get disappointed if no one is willing to follow a blog about WOT in 2020. Unless you are doing it purely for your own amusement then have at it. Or maybe I am completely wrong and a blog is exactly what people want these days.

 

 

Ah, so there are several different values,  and they are pre-filled. So you could have a Dispersion at 50% and one at 25% and my client sends the % values, the server just picks out the next number from that table. That makes more sense. 

 

I am guessing it makes an Armor check beforehand though? You fire, the client decides if you can penetrate at all, if yes, grab the values, if no its a bounce? 

 

the Blog: Yeah we all have a little bit too much free time on our hands, and it is a good place to vent, or at least discuss. Wait and see.. This game is both frustrating and compelling at the same time. 



NUKLEAR_SLUG #5 Posted 29 April 2020 - 01:01 AM

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View PostThe_Salty_Kipper, on 29 April 2020 - 12:33 AM, said:

I am guessing it makes an Armor check beforehand though? You fire, the client decides if you can penetrate at all, if yes, grab the values, if no its a bounce? 

 

The client doesn't get to decide anything, it's all calculated server side. If it were client side you could hack your client to send 'yeah, that'll pen' data to the server and you would see low tier tanks running around penning superheavies with HE from every angle.

 

This is why discussions of hacks gets so idiotic. All the really fun things you would want to do you literally cannot because the client has no say in what happens in the game space, it only displays the information the server allows it to know. 



The_Salty_Kipper #6 Posted 29 April 2020 - 01:51 AM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 29 April 2020 - 01:01 AM, said:

 

The client doesn't get to decide anything, it's all calculated server side. If it were client side you could hack your client to send 'yeah, that'll pen' data to the server and you would see low tier tanks running around penning superheavies with HE from every angle.

 

This is why discussions of hacks gets so idiotic. All the really fun things you would want to do you literally cannot because the client has no say in what happens in the game space, it only displays the information the server allows it to know. 

 

It would be informative to understand the mechanics more, might lead to a lot less frustration,  if you know why that 100% shot bounces.. I am still guessing it would be one of the first checks though, whether the shell can/will penetrate the enemy tank etc. 

 

I also read the part about the armor layouts not being 'exactly' the same as what 'tank.gg' shows.  Which is something else that is 'hidden' from us. 

 

I recall a MOD that would automictically aim at weak spots though, irrespective of where the player was aiming,



TheDrownedApe #7 Posted 29 April 2020 - 07:19 AM

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It's been explained many times. Google is your friend

1ucky #8 Posted 29 April 2020 - 07:45 AM

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That's normal.

RNG numbers are calculated in advance and called upon every time that an event happens where you need one such number.

 

No need to worry about that though.

The number sequence is on the WoT servers, we can't edit it, we just watch it.

 

Also, if you really wanna think about it:

What does it matter if you roll some dice now or if you roll them in 10 minutes?

Who cares, it's still the same dice rolls, in both cases.

 

(That's what happens on the servers basically, virtual dice are being thrown in advance, so you don't have to waste time later, just read the results. Figuratively speaking, but that really is what happens. So don't break your mind over it, or alternatively learn to do some programming and you'll find out it's true.)

 



wsatnutter #9 Posted 29 April 2020 - 08:02 AM

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in laymans terms its swings and roundabouts



The_Salty_Kipper #10 Posted 29 April 2020 - 10:33 AM

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View PostTheDrownedApe, on 29 April 2020 - 07:19 AM, said:

It's been explained many times. Google is your friend

 

Has it? This is the first time I have read anything about how WG implement the RNG part? 

 

A few days ago, I was watching Circonflex play Frontlines (boring I know) and he tried to 'snapshot' several times, and all his shots missed, so he stated snapshot.exe is offline, and that had me wondering, I do watch several WoT streamers and I have noticed that they quite often make seemingly chance shots (they have to , to be able to reach 3 MoEs on most tanks), something which I fail to achieve. 

 

Now, obviously there are several factors going into this, firstly their abilities (they are excellent players) and the crew skills their Tanks have (Circonfles ALWAYS places the best crew available into the tank, mostly by retraining them) , I would like to discount the tank itself, since we all should have the same tank available to us, just have to add the same equipment layouts. 

 

I was also watching a Streamer called Carry_Barry and Skill4U , both were playing their Chieftain whereas Barry was on around 97% MoE (going for 100%) and Skill4U was stuck around 87% going for 3 MoE, they are both skilled WoT players, however Skill4U was doing very badly , and he was was blaming the Gun for trolling him, and it was, whereas Barry was hitting almost every shot he took, it was a crass difference, but why should it be, Skill4U played for several HOURS and din't manage to improve much, he gave up eventually (he might have succeeded by now though).

 

Now, I am not saying there is any Tin Hattery going on, but it does show a level of inconsistency that bothers me, especially when I try to recreate the same results, even with the tanks I have that have very good gun stats (like my Cent 7/1 fully equipped and a 4 skill crew etc,) that still don't seem to be as accurate as they ought to be.. 

 

This is why I am interested in the actual mechanics at play here.. 

 



jabster #11 Posted 29 April 2020 - 10:36 AM

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View PostThe_Salty_Kipper, on 29 April 2020 - 09:33 AM, said:

Now, I am not saying there is any Tin Hattery going on, but it does show a level of inconsistency that bothers me, especially when I try to recreate the same results, even with the tanks I have that have very good gun stats (like my Cent 7/1 fully equipped and a 4 skill crew etc,) that still don't seem to be as accurate as they ought to be..

 

I'm not sure why you'd think this is anything to do with what was said in the Q&A.



Geno1isme #12 Posted 29 April 2020 - 11:09 AM

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View PostThe_Salty_Kipper, on 29 April 2020 - 01:33 AM, said:

Ah, so there are several different values,  and they are pre-filled. So you could have a Dispersion at 50% and one at 25% and my client sends the % values, the server just picks out the next number from that table. That makes more sense. 

No, no and no.

You have to understand how RNG calculation works in general (not just WoT): The RNG itself only generates a random number in a certain range, usually between 0.0 and 1.0. It doesn't know anything about how that number is going to be used. What the WoT server does is simply to generate many of such RNG values in advance when it isn't completely busy (so the resources used by the RNG don't affect server performance during general operation).

Now when the server actually has to perform an RNG check (dispersion, penetration or damage) it takes the next value from that pregenerated list and applies it to a scaling formula to transform it into the required range, e.g. for +-25% damage calculation it would be like "actualDamage = nominalDamage * (1 + (rngValue - 0.5) / 2)" (assuming linear distribution for simplicity). The formula for dispersion will be somewhat different, but again based on the same normalized rngValue. Equipment or Crew skills don't have any direct effect on that, they just affect what the maximum dispersion at the given point in time is.

 

The explanation of WG doesn't really have much significance for individual players, except that there is no "personal" RNG but just a global one. So even if the RNG would generate good and bad values in strict alternating sequence it is quite possible that a single player might get 10, 20 or even more bad rolls in a row as the good values were consumed in between by other players.

 

Another thing you have to realize is that what you see isn't necessarily exactly what actually happens on the server as there is this nasty thing called latency. Esp. when turning the turret you have to account for a certain delay, using server reticule can mitigate that but won't fix it completely.


Edited by Geno1isme, 29 April 2020 - 11:15 AM.


The_Salty_Kipper #13 Posted 29 April 2020 - 11:29 AM

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View PostGeno1isme, on 29 April 2020 - 11:09 AM, said:

. The formula for dispersion will be somewhat different, but again based on the same normalized rngValue. Equipment or Crew skills don't have any direct effect on that, they just affect what the maximum dispersion at the given point in time is.

 

This is the bit I am concerned about, I always (and so did many any others I presume) that the Client sent the relevant information to the server, Then the -+/_ 25% RNG for penetration and damage values were generated, were returned, I had presumed that the Dispersion value (how close to minimum the reticule was) was sent via the client.

 

So, what effect does Crew Skills and Vert Stabs have on the outcome in general, if , what you say, they aren't taken into account? 



Private_Miros #14 Posted 29 April 2020 - 11:32 AM

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View PostThe_Salty_Kipper, on 29 April 2020 - 09:33 AM, said:

 

Has it? This is the first time I have read anything about how WG implement the RNG part? 

 

A few days ago, I was watching Circonflex play Frontlines (boring I know) and he tried to 'snapshot' several times, and all his shots missed, so he stated snapshot.exe is offline, and that had me wondering, I do watch several WoT streamers and I have noticed that they quite often make seemingly chance shots (they have to , to be able to reach 3 MoEs on most tanks), something which I fail to achieve. 

 

Now, obviously there are several factors going into this, firstly their abilities (they are excellent players) and the crew skills their Tanks have (Circonfles ALWAYS places the best crew available into the tank, mostly by retraining them) , I would like to discount the tank itself, since we all should have the same tank available to us, just have to add the same equipment layouts. 

 

I was also watching a Streamer called Carry_Barry and Skill4U , both were playing their Chieftain whereas Barry was on around 97% MoE (going for 100%) and Skill4U was stuck around 87% going for 3 MoE, they are both skilled WoT players, however Skill4U was doing very badly , and he was was blaming the Gun for trolling him, and it was, whereas Barry was hitting almost every shot he took, it was a crass difference, but why should it be, Skill4U played for several HOURS and din't manage to improve much, he gave up eventually (he might have succeeded by now though).

 

Now, I am not saying there is any Tin Hattery going on, but it does show a level of inconsistency that bothers me, especially when I try to recreate the same results, even with the tanks I have that have very good gun stats (like my Cent 7/1 fully equipped and a 4 skill crew etc,) that still don't seem to be as accurate as they ought to be.. 

 

This is why I am interested in the actual mechanics at play here.. 

 

 

Popular streamers are good players that generally run well equipped, skilled crew tanks with food, which already gives you better soft gun stats across the board. They are good players that know where to pre-aim and that know when to snap shot. They also are in positions to shoot far more than you and me and get a lot more shots off per game, hence they'll also hit more.

 

They are people and thus can get frustrated by RNG. I too vent that RNG is bugging me when things aren't going my way. That's frustration that is released and then I move on. Skill isn't in a happy place with his Chieftain marking, which probably doesn't help his efforts. Pressure makes you rush shots and be more frustrated when you miss them.

 

Crew skills and equipment adapt the values (you can see that four yourself in the tank comparison tab in game or on website like tank.gg), they don't influence the RNG, but they lower the maximum values as such. So the deviation caused by RNG is smaller with a good crew and and equipment (because your dispersion is smaller when driving, aim time is faster, etc..).

 



TheDrownedApe #15 Posted 29 April 2020 - 12:00 PM

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View PostThe_Salty_Kipper, on 29 April 2020 - 09:33 AM, said:

 

 

 

Literally took me 1 minute.

 

https://wiki.wargami..._and_Dispersion

 

 


Edited by TheDrownedApe, 29 April 2020 - 12:02 PM.


The_Salty_Kipper #16 Posted 29 April 2020 - 12:02 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 29 April 2020 - 11:32 AM, said:

 

Popular streamers are good players that generally run well equipped, skilled crew tanks with food, which already gives you better soft gun stats across the board. They are good players that know where to pre-aim and that know when to snap shot. They also are in positions to shoot far more than you and me and get a lot more shots off per game, hence they'll also hit more.

 

They are people and thus can get frustrated by RNG. I too vent that RNG is bugging me when things aren't going my way. That's frustration that is released and then I move on. Skill isn't in a happy place with his Chieftain marking, which probably doesn't help his efforts. Pressure makes you rush shots and be more frustrated when you miss them.

 

Crew skills and equipment adapt the values (you can see that four yourself in the tank comparison tab in game or on website like tank.gg), they don't influence the RNG, but they lower the maximum values as such. So the deviation caused by RNG is smaller with a good crew and and equipment (because your dispersion is smaller when driving, aim time is faster, etc..).

 

 

I get that, but it is too generalised, I also run Tanks with good crew skills, Bonus Equipment, food etc.

 

I also know that they equipment and consumables lower dispersion and other values, they question is how much of this information is taken into account when firing and what is actually sent to the server? 

 

I am not saying that there is anything untoward going on, but if you can understand the mechanics better, the game becomes less frustrating, and you can adapt to the parameters set by WG, and enjoy the game more perhaps?

11:05 Added after 3 minute

View PostTheDrownedApe, on 29 April 2020 - 12:00 PM, said:

 

Literally took me 1 minute.

 

https://wiki.wargami..._and_Dispersion

 

 

 

That is from 2017 and has nothing to do with my original statement: 

 

When firing at tanks: the server does not determine the value of an event at the moment when it occurs. The server calculates a hell of a lot of these values ​​in advance, such as the aiming circle size during firing, shell dispersion inside the circle, damage you will do, indicators for armor penetration, it normalizes all of this

 

What does this mean exactly, in relation to the game , and when I fire a shell? 

 

 



Private_Miros #17 Posted 29 April 2020 - 12:11 PM

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View PostThe_Salty_Kipper, on 29 April 2020 - 11:02 AM, said:

 

I get that, but it is too generalised, I also run Tanks with good crew skills, Bonus Equipment, food etc.

 

I also know that they equipment and consumables lower dispersion and other values, they question is how much of this information is taken into account when firing and what is actually sent to the server? 

 

I am not saying that there is anything untoward going on, but if you can understand the mechanics better, the game becomes less frustrating, and you can adapt to the parameters set by WG, and enjoy the game more perhaps?

11:05 Added after 3 minute

 

That is from 2017 and has nothing to do with my original statement: 

 

When firing at tanks: the server does not determine the value of an event at the moment when it occurs. The server calculates a hell of a lot of these values ​​in advance, such as the aiming circle size during firing, shell dispersion inside the circle, damage you will do, indicators for armor penetration, it normalizes all of this

 

What does this mean exactly, in relation to the game , and when I fire a shell? 

 

 

 

I recommend using the Battle Hits mod. Many strange bounces aren't bounces at all, but simply missing the hitbox and just hitting the tracks (and not hitting running wheels for detracking): the shot passes under the tank but hits the red market and so it gives a false hit basically. You can review those shots after the game and it helps to understand.

 

The server takes the dispersion upon movement, aim time, etc.. from your tank + crew + equipment. The server has this information. It also gives you and RNG roll for the next shot regarding shell dispersion, damage roll and penetration within those parameters. So when you press fire, your client just sends that you press fire, and the server answers with the values it had ready for that shot based on your tanks + crew + equipment stats as effected by the RNG roll.

 

 


Edited by Private_Miros, 29 April 2020 - 12:11 PM.


TheDrownedApe #18 Posted 29 April 2020 - 12:13 PM

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View PostThe_Salty_Kipper, on 29 April 2020 - 11:02 AM, said:

 

When firing at tanks: the server does not determine the value of an event at the moment when it occurs. The server calculates a hell of a lot of these values ​​in advance, such as the aiming circle size during firing, shell dispersion inside the circle, damage you will do, indicators for armor penetration, it normalizes all of this

 

What does this mean exactly, in relation to the game , and when I fire a shell? 

 

 

it means what it says - the calc, in advance, takes into account your "bonuses" then will assign that shot a position on the curve inline with the values and then assign it a damage value.

 

Now it might calculate these at the start of a game where it predetermines your max number of shells and assigns each shot a damage roll and postition within your aiming circle. Now this is irrespective of your aiming circle size as it will assign a point within that circle whatever the size that is. This is why snap shots are possible as it still assigns the centre of the circle as point about **% of the time. The whole point is that no one will ever know the results as they are server side and only specific to that game


Edited by TheDrownedApe, 29 April 2020 - 12:16 PM.


Geno1isme #19 Posted 29 April 2020 - 12:22 PM

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View PostThe_Salty_Kipper, on 29 April 2020 - 12:29 PM, said:

This is the bit I am concerned about, I always (and so did many any others I presume) that the Client sent the relevant information to the server, Then the -+/_ 25% RNG for penetration and damage values were generated, were returned, I had presumed that the Dispersion value (how close to minimum the reticule was) was sent via the client.

No, the client basically only tells the server how you move your tank, your turret and what keys you press (to fire, use consumables, ...). All data processing takes place on the server. Lets say you press W (forward) for five seconds. Then your client will transmit the "moving forward" command to the server for five seconds. The server then calculates where you actually go in that time in what speed, and based on that calculates the "movement dispersion" (and sends it back to the client). Now if it any point within those five seconds you press the fire button the client simply tells the server that, the server then checks if you were actually ready to fire (gun not broken, ammo loaded, ...) and in what direction your points at that time. Then it calculates the actual RNG dispersion from that direction, checks if the shot hit an armor plate, calculates the RNG penetration value, checks if that roll would penetrate the armor plate (incorporating ammo type, angles and so on) and only then finally makes a damage roll. And then it sends the result of all that back to the client.

(Note: Of course that is just an assumption as nobody here knows for sure how things are implemented in detail. Also in reality the whole process is likely much more complex.)



Nishi_Kinuyo #20 Posted 29 April 2020 - 12:23 PM

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View Postmalowany, on 29 April 2020 - 12:07 AM, said:

Hey,

 

Honestly, I never got into the RNG of the aiming, it's just too tedious. From my very limited understanding of this mechanism, I would assume that server must know this, it would be insane if it didn't differentiate between full speed snapshot and fully aimed shot and it would show in-game no doubt, everyone would be zooming around shooting left and right, I personally don't remember last time I hit something further than close range while on the move.

 

As for the blog part. As much as I hate discouraging people you have to realise that this is a 10 years old game, and there aren't really any hot takes left to have, apart from new events and premium tanks, everything else has been discussed to death, save for very occasional game mode or game mechanic like cars. You might not get any discussion out of anyone simply because people are tired of discussing the same stuff for 10 years and the influx of new players is rather limited, especially on the forum.

 

So just don't get disappointed if no one is willing to follow a blog about WOT in 2020. Unless you are doing it purely for your own amusement then have at it. Or maybe I am completely wrong and a blog is exactly what people want these days.

RNG for aiming doesn't matter whether it is fully aimed or maximum bloom.

It picks a spot within the aiming circle, and puts the shell there.

So if it picks a spot that is 75% away from centre aim towards the top-left corner, then it applies that to your current aim circle size.

Since all calculation are server-side, the server knows the exact size of your aim circle during any part of your movement (or lack there-of), so if you're going 100km/h in your EBR, then the server knows the exact size and direction of your aim circle during that movement. Having a better crew, various crew skills, food, vents, vstab, etc. all improve the maximum size of your aim circle, and how quickly it grows bigger. Al those values are known to the server, so it knows how to apply those in advance as well.

 

What they basically told us: we pre-generate and store random numbers and draw from that instead of generating them real-time.

The calculation being made is fed one of the pre-generated random numbers without the server knowing what the exact value is, so it is essentially still random, but using far less computing power.

They then go on to tell us that personal reserves, premium account, gold ammo, etc. have no impact on the numbers getting fed into your calculations.


Edited by Nishi_Kinuyo, 29 April 2020 - 12:34 PM.





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