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Wiping tank statistics


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Killtech #1 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:09 PM

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Suggestion:

There should be an option on the players tank list in the service record to wipe statistics but for individual tanks only. A simple button would be enough. It would of course ask if the player if he is absolutely certain about it since once deleted it won't be possible to restore the data. That said the feature should be implemented in accordance with European data rights which allows us to require the deletion of data associated with our person (and therefore our account) such that the data is indeed unrecoverably deleted on the server. This would also have to include all medals, gun marking achievements and what not - since those are based on the wiped data.

 

Reasoning:

I find myself often in the situation that I don't play many of my tanks or am very reluctant to experiment with them just because i know that statistics are always collected and thus can never be truly undone. In particular starting new tech tree branches has been in particular a very dreaded experience so far, given that I don't have enough experience to play them and they are quite underpowered in their stock configurations - which than will heavily impact the stats and stay there forever. But this also applies to premium vehicles - such that as of now I have a sizable amount of premium tanks in my garage that i have never taken to battle (which lowers my interest in acquiring any new ones). It should be however obvious that discouraging the player from playing new content is a bad policy on every level. On the other hand i have noticed how refreshing it is to play Frontline game mode where no stats are available allowing me to play all my vehicles without concern which therefore allows me to experiment with them and learn what works and what doesn't (for my tier 8s this has become the regular mode to make my maiden voyage/battle with any new tank. pity the mode isn't more often available).

 

Stats may be just numbers but in the current community they have become central to judging other players in terms of skill and experience (and on the forums easily become a regular source of harassment). Given stats are always public i.e. visible for everyone, no one can really evade that discussion. With that in mind I would want to make use of my rights as a EU citizen and take control about this data: wipe some of my oldest tanks i started with, and artillery that I managed to totally suck with. I have therefore contacted support but unfortunately i was told that they do not have the proper means to do that and the only thing they could do is wipe the entire account.

 

Finally there is also the question of fairness and Pay-2-Win. When it comes to stats it is immediately obvious that players with elite tanks, good crews and fully stocked equipment and consumables will always perform much better then players in stock tanks with new crews and no full loadouts. Premium currency and account allows players to speed up or even entirely skip most of the grind therefore premium payers will always have somewhat better stats then free players. Being able to wipe stats from the grinding period would thus at least partly allow to remedy the situation - at least severely weakening the P2W argument. I would also want to add something from my personal experience, namely about some of my friends which I originally started WoT with. Over the years they got quite frustrated about this (they were more competitive them I am) and gradually lost interest in the game - and now from my RL friends i am the only one still playing. 

 

EDIT: In many games we have often two types of very similar random match modes: normal and ranked. Usually stats are only collected for the latter. In WoT we do not have such a choice and effectively all random battles are to be considered ranked if statistics are looked at from a competitive point of view (i.e. they mean anything). This means that free-2-play players have to grind in uncompetetive stock tanks and fresh crews in a ranked game mode, while paying players can skip that. And once these games are played WGs personal rating and all other ratings will always include those games for their calculation. So that means paying player will always be somewhat better in those ranking than any free competition. Therefore if we take stats any bit seriously this is a nice pay-2-win mechanic. 

 

My own case:

Over the last 10 years and 33k battles I have collected 436 tanks in my garage of which all are properly manned and well equipped now. That makes for an average of 75 games per tank (I have only 4 tanks that have a little more than 500 battles on them, most of which are my very first tanks i got, like the M5 Steward which back than could meet up to tier 9 tanks). I started  playing WoT just when the game became available in the EU and at the beginning i played very intensively with about ~10k battles within the first year after the game was released. So the majority of my stats are quite ancient. I might add that unfortunately for me I have played for many years as a free2play player and grinded my way up through the tech trees the hard way, i.e. starting with 75% crews and stock tanks where I had not much free xp to skip anything.

 

Now when I browse my tanks with most battles and just remembered what they looked like back in the day when I played them... those were entirely different tanks in an entirely different game and MM!! Most even remember the time of the oldest MM which wasn't the comfortable +/-2 we have now and yeah it was much later changed for scouts so when looking at my low tier light tanks stats you have to take into account their numbers are based on battles against up to tier 10 tanks. When I played my KV-1 it had an alternative top turret called KV-2! And my US T-34 heavy was still a regular tech tree tank then so yeah, I played that premium in a stock configuration, too. My T110E5 stats stem from a time when it was introduced so long before it got its major buff and the same applies to many other of my tanks in the upper part of vehicles tab... so what do these ancient stats even supposed to mean nowadays?

 

Legal question:

Looking at the Council of Europe Convention 108 (3.4 - the data accuracy principle) and other EU legal documents every person has the right to demand any inaccurate personal bound data to be corrected or deleted. Now given that these nearly a decade old stats are publicly visible for anyone and have no kind of associated game version information from when they were collected one could claim that they gravely misrepresent the true information they supposedly stand for. As such they might even be directly subject to the EU laws. I don't really seriously mean to invoke any legal challenge about this but the very idea of seeing lawyers dead seriously arguing about WoT stats and their meaning in a courtroom is so hilarious that I though it to share it. 


Edited by Killtech, 07 May 2020 - 01:31 PM.


boboiscool #2 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:22 PM

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How can a tank statisitic relate to a player or even a real person? To comply with the law you can delete your account and even your username ( * never forget Tr0glodyte *). 

BravelyRanAway #3 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:24 PM

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View PostKilltech, on 30 April 2020 - 09:09 PM, said:

Reasoning:

I find myself often in the situation that I don't play many of my tanks or am very reluctant to experiment with them just because i know that statistics are always collected and thus can never be truly undone. In particular starting new tech tree branches has been in particular a very dreaded experience so far, given that I don't have enough experience to play them and they are quite underpowered in their stock configurations - which than will heavily impact the stats and stay there forever. 

Good grief....stay off the internet if you get triggered by such things and don't play any online games. 

Unless you actually used your real name as your ingame name, nicknames are not covered and WG don't have to unless you can prove otherwise.



Balc0ra #4 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:24 PM

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Now, I'm no legal expert ofc. But how is your bad E5 stats as you put it, for your fake avatar name considered inaccurate personal data vs the real you?

 

Ofc you can ask for a complete data wipe, as in the right to be forgotten. Or even reset your account. But one tank stat? I mean many have wanted it. But if it was that easy...

 



Killtech #5 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:36 PM

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View Postboboiscool, on 30 April 2020 - 09:22 PM, said:

How can a tank statisitic relate to a player or even a real person? To comply with the law you can delete your account and even your username ( * never forget Tr0glodyte *). 

 

this is not the meaning. Any data that is collected with direct association with you is subject to these laws. Anything you can call "yours", as in when I say "my stats" it's clear what I mean and it's obvious they are bound to my person/account and make little sense without that association. For example your google search queries, which google uses to improve your results are subject to these laws as well (because they save them with the personal link) and for example some people have already demanded to see all what google has saved on them and after repeated request got a stack of CDs send to them with tons of data.



Spurtung #6 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:37 PM

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Killtech #7 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:40 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 30 April 2020 - 09:24 PM, said:

Unless you actually used your real name as your ingame name, nicknames are not covered and WG don't have to unless you can prove otherwise.

 

I have talked about with our lawyers at out company and this is of not true. anonymized personal bound data still remains personal bound - even if you have to go through multiple layers to get the person associated with the data.

 

we also have handle accounts of customers and all data on them (no mater how insignificant you deem it) is still subject to data protection laws and thus must be handled accordingly. 



BravelyRanAway #8 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:45 PM

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View PostKilltech, on 30 April 2020 - 09:40 PM, said:

we also have handle accounts of customers and all data on them (no mater how insignificant you deem it) is still subject to data protection laws and thus must be handled accordingly. 

...and all your customers use nicknames?



boboiscool #9 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:47 PM

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View PostKilltech, on 30 April 2020 - 10:40 PM, said:

I have talked about with our lawyers at out company and this is of not true. anonymized personal bound data still remains personal bound - even if you have to go through multiple layers to get the person associated with the data.

 

we also have handle accounts of customers and all data on them (no mater how insignificant you deem it) is still subject to data protection laws and thus must be handled accordingly. 

If you can prove to WG you are actually the owner of that account I think they will be happy to give you the data they have. However WG will never send it to me..



Killtech #10 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:50 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 30 April 2020 - 09:24 PM, said:

Now, I'm no legal expert ofc. But how is your bad E5 stats as you put it, for your fake avatar name considered inaccurate personal data vs the real you?

 

Ofc you can ask for a complete data wipe, as in the right to be forgotten. Or even reset your account. But one tank stat? I mean many have wanted it. But if it was that easy...

 

I don't think it is legally easy, hence the question. The data could be considered inaccurate because the vehicle, gameplay and everything has changed such that the stats interpreted as stemming from the current game version are at least misleading. Especially because this is publicly available data and subject to forums discussions - so without proper labeling others might find it misleading and you may argue that you fear "reputation damage" as a result. Yeah sounds borderline stupid but I supposed you would have to legally argue this way. Mainly the missing labeling prevents anyone from knowing the stats are quite outdated. Oh, in fact if you can legally state that it is outdated, it should legally count as inaccurate by definition, so you would have the right to have it corrected or wiped and it would indeed only apply to the data in question. You wouldn't be able to do that with stats from a relatively new tank though.

 

View PostTheJungleBeast, on 30 April 2020 - 09:34 PM, said:

This is the highest level troll  thread I have ever read.

thank you. I put some effort and research into it :)

 



BravelyRanAway #11 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:53 PM

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View PostKilltech, on 30 April 2020 - 09:50 PM, said:

 

I don't think it is legally easy, hence the question. The data could be considered inaccurate because the vehicle, gameplay and everything has changed such that the stats interpreted as stemming from the current game version are at least misleading. Especially because this is publicly available data and subject to forums discussions - so without proper labeling others might find it misleading and you may argue that you fear "reputation damage" as a result. Yeah sounds borderline stupid but I supposed you would have to legally argue this way. Mainly the missing labeling prevents anyone from knowing the stats are quite outdated. Oh, in fact if you can legally state that it is outdated, it should legally count as inaccurate by definition, so you would have the right to have it corrected or wiped and it would indeed only apply to the data in question. You wouldn't be able to do that with stats from a relatively new tank though.

 

Just get it over with and reroll.:trollface:



Killtech #12 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:53 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 30 April 2020 - 09:45 PM, said:

...and all your customers use nicknames?

 

 

Yeah, in the context of their web accounts they can open up they do. Also you might have noticed that in WoT agreement you are not allowed to share your account with another person... well it is really legally fully bound to you.

 



barison1 #13 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:53 PM

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if you spend all this time trying to sue wg for this stupidness you could have improved the stats of all those tanks you wanted to be wiped

BravelyRanAway #14 Posted 30 April 2020 - 10:55 PM

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View PostKilltech, on 30 April 2020 - 09:53 PM, said:

 

 Also you might have noticed that in WoT agreement you are not allowed to share your account with another person... well it is really legally fully bound to you.

 

Indeed....but not for the reason you think it is.



VeryRisky #15 Posted 30 April 2020 - 11:05 PM

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The only statistic that matter is the win or loss in the battle you are in at any time.   

 

The rest of your stats tell an honest, but hugely incomplete story of how you have played over time.   If you can edit them, they become "some statistics of how you played over time excluding the bit you don't like".   The only question is whether you want these to fool yourself or someone else?



Homer_J #16 Posted 30 April 2020 - 11:05 PM

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View PostKilltech, on 30 April 2020 - 10:50 PM, said:

 

I don't think it is legally easy, hence the question. The data could be considered inaccurate because the vehicle, gameplay and everything has changed such that the stats interpreted as stemming from the current game version are at least misleading.

 

Removing only some data would then make your entire account inaccurate and now we are falling down a massive rabbit hole.



Killtech #17 Posted 30 April 2020 - 11:06 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 30 April 2020 - 09:55 PM, said:

Indeed....but not for the reason you think it is.

The reason is entirely irrelevant. This clause makes the account completely bound to my person and there is no way you can legally maneuver around that. so according to EU law any data on this account or associated to it is by definition personal data (I prefer to call it personally bound data as the English legal term sounds... misleading when used in common English but it is what it is). 



VeryRisky #18 Posted 30 April 2020 - 11:11 PM

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View PostKilltech, on 30 April 2020 - 10:06 PM, said:

The reason is entirely irrelevant. This clause makes the account completely bound to my person and there is no way you can legally maneuver around that. so according to EU law any data on this account or associated to it is by definition personal data (I prefer to call it personally bound data as the English legal term sounds... misleading when used in common English but it is what it is). 

Would you want your account to carry an indicator that it show "enhanced statistics that the use feels more appropriate that the real ones"?

 

Or do you need it to publicly show your enhanced statistics with no indicator.

 

Or if the only concern is that they upset you, would you want it just to show the enhanced ones to you and let everyone else see the raw version?



Isharial #19 Posted 30 April 2020 - 11:19 PM

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from what i know:

 

there is no personally identifiable data within your username, your avatar, or your games stats. I could not tell you your real name, your address or what you look like. that's personally identifiable data. there's also no link to a facebook account (for example), thus you could essentially be anyone, i wouldn't be able to find you with just that sole information found here. 

 

now if your name was Bob, you were a builder, had your home address as your description and had a picture of yourself as your avatar wearing a builders hat outside your place of work, then that would be personally identifiable data, and you could then request WG to delete it all.

that would also be true if you had an account that linked to your WG account that could be accessed from your WG account that showed who you actually were, then that would also be personally identifiable...

 

i cant imagine any children being called "killtech" though, so, that would be a very questionable thing to put forward as personal IMO.

that same thing goes for your old stats, none of it can be used so to speak, as an identifier, ie, you cant be found using them. It is essentially a record of history and as the saying goes "only a fool ignores history"

 



BravelyRanAway #20 Posted 30 April 2020 - 11:28 PM

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View PostKilltech, on 30 April 2020 - 10:06 PM, said:

The reason is entirely irrelevant. This clause makes the account completely bound to my person and there is no way you can legally maneuver around that. so according to EU law any data on this account or associated to it is by definition personal data (I prefer to call it personally bound data as the English legal term sounds... misleading when used in common English but it is what it is).

The reason is very relevant. You can share an account, but WG only advise against it and will not intervene if it goes pear-shaped.

 

Account Sharing

5.6 You must keep all information relating to your Account confidential. At no time should you disclose your Account ID or password, secret question or answer to anyone. This includes your friends, children, spouses, co-workers, clan members, and/or clan leaders.

5.7 You may, under circumstances, be responsible for the conduct and actions using your Account and for all breaches of these Terms of Service committed by using your Account which are due your culpable omissions or conduct as regards your Account information. We shall have no liability to you for any loss or damage arising from any unauthorised use of your Account or any unauthorised access, use, alteration, modification and/or disclosure of your personal information based on your culpable omissions or conduct as regards your Account information.


Edited by BravelyRanAway, 30 April 2020 - 11:29 PM.





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