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wn8 rating and Spotting damage

wn8 skill Player rating

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OldFartPhil #1 Posted 02 May 2020 - 12:52 AM

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Why can't spotting damage be included in the wn8 rating when spotting damage has been included in the API since patch 8.8 ? In its current metric it isn't a fair and balanced rating of a players overall skill level , and before anyone says anything I do know that it's a third party app .

Slyspy #2 Posted 02 May 2020 - 01:03 AM

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I believe the stated reason is that the data is not in a useful form. 

Dis4ster #3 Posted 02 May 2020 - 02:40 AM

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And what do you expect from that? Do you really think that your E-PP would grow a bit because of your 700 average spotting damage with a T10 LT?

Its just another stat that would be added to the expected values of the WN8 formular and those values are the average of all players combined so if everyone gets more assisted damage than you, the amount of WN8 you get will be less than all the other players.

I don't know how you are spotting but i guess its suicidal, right at the sart of the battle you drive towards the enemy spawn and exchange all your HP for 10-20 sec of spotting time in which your few faster temmates, who could follow your light tank close enough, could hit the enemies a few times.

 

Btw. your average damage taken is on all of your LTs almost the same as their HP pool, that means you get destroyed in almost all of your battles with light tanks, have you ever realized that? When is the time for a change, at 50k battles played?


Edited by Dis4ster, 02 May 2020 - 02:42 AM.


Sylvansight #4 Posted 02 May 2020 - 04:26 AM

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View PostOldFartPhil, on 01 May 2020 - 11:52 PM, said:

Why can't spotting damage be included in the wn8 rating when spotting damage has been included in the API since patch 8.8 ? In its current metric it isn't a fair and balanced rating of a players overall skill level , and before anyone says anything I do know that it's a third party app .


accept that wn8 is a vague damage metric and move on - it had it's day in the sun which ended five years ago, let it go.

HP buffs will probably be the final nail in the coffin.  



NUKLEAR_SLUG #5 Posted 02 May 2020 - 04:47 AM

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OP,  I don't think the way the XVM team calculate WN8 values is really the thing that's holding you back.

JocMeister #6 Posted 02 May 2020 - 08:32 AM

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View PostOldFartPhil, on 02 May 2020 - 12:52 AM, said:

Why can't spotting damage be included in the wn8 rating when spotting damage has been included in the API since patch 8.8 ? In its current metric it isn't a fair and balanced rating of a players overall skill level , and before anyone says anything I do know that it's a third party app .

 

Stop looking at your wn8 values and the problem will be solved. 



shikaka9 #7 Posted 02 May 2020 - 09:49 AM

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becuase spotting is not skill

JocMeister #8 Posted 02 May 2020 - 10:51 AM

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View Postshikaka9, on 02 May 2020 - 09:49 AM, said:

becuase spotting is not skill

 

This is a joke I hope?



Private_Miros #9 Posted 02 May 2020 - 10:58 AM

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View PostOldFartPhil, on 01 May 2020 - 11:52 PM, said:

Why can't spotting damage be included in the wn8 rating when spotting damage has been included in the API since patch 8.8 ? In its current metric it isn't a fair and balanced rating of a players overall skill level , and before anyone says anything I do know that it's a third party app .

 

It's largely fair though. While you can pad WN8 a bit with useless damage, no bad player does significant useful spotting.

 

If it was available from the start in the API DuS would have been included for sure. But since (non-suicidal) aggressive play pays off, you'll see that good players have good damage upon spotting.

 

Also, I was looking through your tanks for some comparison and, man, you rush to top 10. Most of the tier 9s you played less than 10 battles in before free xp'ing to tier 10. Why even bother buying the tier 9 then? And I can imagine where all the credits come from that allow you to buy those tier 10s. May all who say that spending money WoT gives you unicum stats be pointed your way, I'd say.

 

 


Edited by Private_Miros, 02 May 2020 - 11:08 AM.


shikaka9 #10 Posted 02 May 2020 - 10:59 AM

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View PostJocMeister, on 02 May 2020 - 09:51 AM, said:

 

This is a joke I hope?

is no joke, if its not in WN8, then its not skill



arthurwellsley #11 Posted 02 May 2020 - 11:06 AM

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View PostOldFartPhil, on 01 May 2020 - 11:52 PM, said:

Why can't spotting damage be included in the wn8 rating when spotting damage has been included in the API since patch 8.8 ? In its current metric it isn't a fair and balanced rating of a players overall skill level , and before anyone says anything I do know that it's a third party app .

 

 

wn8 is calculated in a three step formula.

Step 1 calculate the following values

rDAMAGE = avgDmg / expDmg -> Basically you divide your average damage / expected damage.
rSPOT = avgSpot / expSpot -> Divide Average Spots Per battle / Expected Average Spots Per Battle.
rFRAG = avgFrag / expFrag -> Divide Average Kills Per Battle / Expected Kills Per Battle.
rDEF = avgDef / expDef -> Divide Average "Decap" Points Per Battle ( Defense points) / Expected "Decap" Points per battle.
rWIN = avgWinRate / expWinRate -> Divide Average Winrate / Expected Winrate.

Step 2 use those values like this

rWINc = max(0, (rWIN - 0.71) / (1 - 0.71) ) -> Basically this is (rWIN - 0.71) / (1 - 0.71). 
rDAMAGEc = max(0, (rDAMAGE - 0.22) / (1 - 0.22) )
rFRAGc = max(0, min(rDAMAGEc + 0.2, (rFRAG - 0.12) / (1 - 0.12))) -> Its either (rDAMAGEc + 0.2) or (rFRAG - 0.12) / (1 - 0.12). Depends which one is the lowest.
rSPOTc = max(0, min(rDAMAGEc + 0.1, (rSPOT - 0.38) / (1 - 0.38)))
rDEFc = max(0, min(rDAMAGEc + 0.1, (rDEF - 0.10) / (1 - 0.10)))

Step 3 the final calculation, the formula itself with all the values that were calculated in the above steps =

WN8 = 980*rDAMAGEc + 210*rDAMAGEc*rFRAGc + 155*rFRAGc*rSPOTc + 75*rDEFc*rFRAGc + 145*MIN(1.8,rWINc)

 

So you can clearly see that spotting is included.

 

EDITED as Private_Miros pointed out below my misreading of the formula.


Edited by arthurwellsley, 02 May 2020 - 11:14 AM.


Private_Miros #12 Posted 02 May 2020 - 11:10 AM

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View Postshikaka9, on 02 May 2020 - 09:59 AM, said:

is no joke, if its not in WN8, then its not skill

 

Damage upon spotting, much like decision making and positioning are skill that translate into win rate and damage dealt. They are indirectly in WN8. Not perfectly of course, but the correlation is there.

 

View Postarthurwellsley, on 02 May 2020 - 10:06 AM, said:

 

It is.

 

So you can clearly see that spotting damage is included.

 

That's only number of spots, not damage upon spotting.

 

 



JocMeister #13 Posted 02 May 2020 - 01:20 PM

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View Postshikaka9, on 02 May 2020 - 10:59 AM, said:

is no joke, if its not in WN8, then its not skill

 

Are you seriously saying wn8 = skill? If you are trying to be ironic I am missing it.



shikaka9 #14 Posted 02 May 2020 - 02:17 PM

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View PostJocMeister, on 02 May 2020 - 12:20 PM, said:

 

Are you seriously saying wn8 = skill? If you are trying to be ironic I am missing it.

blocking damage is not skill too

:harp:



HanZi #15 Posted 03 May 2020 - 07:11 AM

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View Postshikaka9, on 02 May 2020 - 09:49 AM, said:

becuase spotting is not skill

Hmmmm, like firing gold ammo and use illigal MODs.???? 

Spotting can win the game.



shikaka9 #16 Posted 03 May 2020 - 07:18 AM

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View PostHanZi, on 03 May 2020 - 06:11 AM, said:

Spotting can win the game.

according WN8... its not :trollface:



In_memory_of_Bud_Spencer #17 Posted 03 May 2020 - 07:25 AM

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View PostOldFartPhil, on 02 May 2020 - 12:52 AM, said:

Why can't spotting damage be included in the wn8 rating when spotting damage has been included in the API since patch 8.8 ? In its current metric it isn't a fair and balanced rating of a players overall skill level , and before anyone says anything I do know that it's a third party app .

 

The problem is, that in earlier days there was no spotting value per tank in the database, only an overall value. So it is possible to get actual values but in the overall rating this would be mixed up with the old overall value. As they found no good solution for this, spotting was never included in the WN8 value. So the problem is, that the needed data from WG is not available.



Private_Miros #18 Posted 03 May 2020 - 08:37 AM

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View Postshikaka9, on 03 May 2020 - 06:18 AM, said:

according WN8... its not :trollface:

 

Win rate is in WN8, thus spotting and blocking is too, indirectly.

 

Is it perfect? Of course not. Is there indirectly? Yes.



iuytr #19 Posted 03 May 2020 - 11:39 AM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 02 May 2020 - 11:06 AM, said:

 

 

wn8 is calculated in a three step formula.

Step 1 calculate the following values

rDAMAGE = avgDmg / expDmg -> Basically you divide your average damage / expected damage.
rSPOT = avgSpot / expSpot -> Divide Average Spots Per battle / Expected Average Spots Per Battle.
rFRAG = avgFrag / expFrag -> Divide Average Kills Per Battle / Expected Kills Per Battle.
rDEF = avgDef / expDef -> Divide Average "Decap" Points Per Battle ( Defense points) / Expected "Decap" Points per battle.
rWIN = avgWinRate / expWinRate -> Divide Average Winrate / Expected Winrate.

Step 2 use those values like this

rWINc = max(0, (rWIN - 0.71) / (1 - 0.71) ) -> Basically this is (rWIN - 0.71) / (1 - 0.71). 
rDAMAGEc = max(0, (rDAMAGE - 0.22) / (1 - 0.22) )
rFRAGc = max(0, min(rDAMAGEc + 0.2, (rFRAG - 0.12) / (1 - 0.12))) -> Its either (rDAMAGEc + 0.2) or (rFRAG - 0.12) / (1 - 0.12). Depends which one is the lowest.
rSPOTc = max(0, min(rDAMAGEc + 0.1, (rSPOT - 0.38) / (1 - 0.38)))
rDEFc = max(0, min(rDAMAGEc + 0.1, (rDEF - 0.10) / (1 - 0.10)))

Step 3 the final calculation, the formula itself with all the values that were calculated in the above steps =

WN8 = 980*rDAMAGEc + 210*rDAMAGEc*rFRAGc + 155*rFRAGc*rSPOTc + 75*rDEFc*rFRAGc + 145*MIN(1.8,rWINc)

 

So you can clearly see that spotting is included.

 

EDITED as Private_Miros pointed out below my misreading of the formula.

 

I believe the OP means assisted damage, not frags.

10:41 Added after 2 minute

View PostPrivate_Miros, on 03 May 2020 - 08:37 AM, said:

 

Win rate is in WN8, thus spotting and blocking is too, indirectly.

 

 

BS. Win rate is totally meaningless in random battles and has no place in the stats, unless the effect is tapered based on number of battles, So no effect below, say, 1,000 battles on a per tank basis.


Edited by iuytr, 03 May 2020 - 11:42 AM.


Private_Miros #20 Posted 03 May 2020 - 11:44 AM

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View Postiuytr, on 03 May 2020 - 10:39 AM, said:

 

BS. Win rate is totally meaningless in random battles and has no place in the stats, unless the effect is tapered based on number of battles, So no effect below, say, 1,000 battles on a per tank basis.

 

Win rate is meaningless for small sample sizes, but once over 100 it starts to become reliable in most circumstances and only improves in accuracy.
The more you damage (own or assisted), spot, block, and the better your decisions, the more you'll win.

 

I'd go as far to say that solo win rate is the only relevant stat in random battles, as it shows how well you adapt and position and help your teams.


Edited by Private_Miros, 03 May 2020 - 11:45 AM.






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