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"Ramblings of an old man" or a brief analysis of WoTs decline in gameplay

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General_Jack_D_Ripper #21 Posted 06 May 2020 - 05:58 AM

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Hi morgotz,

 

nice to see u got your old account.

I remember that 5 years ago we complained, that the maps are more and more changed into corridor maps.

 

Nowadays nearly all maps are city maps.

Best example is murovanka.

The once great magic forrest ist now turned into city streets without buildings but tall hills.

 

I too quit 5 years ago. Different reasons, though.

Back then good players still chose mobility before armor. Mediums were the best choice, if u wanted to have great battles.

Now, armor is king.

And P2W premium tanks. Wow.

 

But open maps always had great problems: Camping.

Old el haluf

Old Malinovka

Komarin (that marshland map with the island in the middle. Dear lord, every round was exceptionally boring. I remember driving around a lot to spot and peak but invisible TDs in bushes behind open field made the map really really annoying)

Old Murovanka (if no scout of the southern team was driving alongside the magic forrest the northern team habd pritty much one job: stay in the forrest)

Reworked Murovanka (with the added bushy sniping hil in the south)

Old Province

Old Redshire (one hell of a camping map, the rework with the alley on one side was quit nice, though)

Old Sandriver (basecamping was basically the go to thing for TDs)

 

Old open maps often had you camping, especially when 5 arties meant sudden death from above.

 

I miss dragons ridge. Even if it was unbalanced, I really enjoyed that map. :(

Or south coast. I loved that one as well.


Edited by General_Jack_D_Ripper, 06 May 2020 - 06:23 AM.


shishx_the_animal #22 Posted 06 May 2020 - 06:25 AM

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stop cry kid

malowany #23 Posted 06 May 2020 - 07:27 AM

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View Postshishx_the_animal, on 06 May 2020 - 06:25 AM, said:

stop cry kid

 

Start develop sentence adult



Cobra6 #24 Posted 06 May 2020 - 07:41 AM

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Unfortunately, you are pretty much exactly right.

 

That game, over the years, has become extremely dumbed down gameplay wise compared to what it used to be.

 

I've seen many friends and clan-mates leave over the years (all good or great players) because genuine skill has become less and less of a deciding factor, there is no reward anymore for improving, knowing weakspots, learning game mechanics etc.

When you can just drive into a completely sheltered corridor and spam gold-ammo at your opponent negating their armor in most cases with ease, what is there to be excited about or to reward you? You are not achieving anything, the game is simply handing it to you.

 

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_Signal_ #25 Posted 06 May 2020 - 08:15 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 06:41 AM, said:

Unfortunately, you are pretty much exactly right.

 

That game, over the years, has become extremely dumbed down gameplay wise compared to what it used to be.

 

I've seen many friends and clan-mates leave over the years (all good or great players) because genuine skill has become less and less of a deciding factor, there is no reward anymore for improving, knowing weakspots, learning game mechanics etc.

When you can just drive into a completely sheltered corridor and spam gold-ammo at your opponent negating their armor in most cases with ease, what is there to be excited about or to reward you? You are not achieving anything, the game is simply handing it to you.

 

Cobra 6

and yet 80% of the playerbase still can't manage this,  rather simple task.... but yes the game has been dumbed down to a point it's like a thin gruel.


Edited by _Signal_, 06 May 2020 - 08:16 AM.


3W1_ #26 Posted 06 May 2020 - 08:16 AM

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it just doesnt feel like the tankgame it once was and why i played it that much.

TankkiPoju #27 Posted 06 May 2020 - 08:40 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 07:41 AM, said:

That game, over the years, has become extremely dumbed down gameplay wise compared to what it used to be.

 

The gameplay of 2011-2015 was even more dumbed down in my opinion.

 

There were no physics, so you couldn't drive even across water on maps. No dropping down from cliffs due to invisible walls everywhere.

 

The game had also way less tanks and game mechanics.

 

If you want a tough to swallow pill, here is one: You have played the game for thousands of hours, so the game feels dumbed down. There is nothing WG can do to fix that.

 

And if you feel the game has been dumbed down, how is the average WoT player still as bad as ever?

 



Tealo #28 Posted 06 May 2020 - 08:50 AM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 06 May 2020 - 07:40 AM, said:

 

The gameplay of 2011-2015 was even more dumbed down in my opinion.

 

There were no physics, so you couldn't drive even across water on maps. No dropping down from cliffs due to invisible walls everywhere.

 

The game had also way less tanks and game mechanics.

 

If you want a tough to swallow pill, here is one: You have played the game for thousands of hours, so the game feels dumbed down. There is nothing WG can do to fix that.

 

And if you feel the game has been dumbed down, how is the average WoT player still as bad as ever?

 

 

 

 You are wrong! 

  The game has become more dumbed down (so have the players :confused:) and its mostly due to the maps (corridors, simpler, less cross fires= less brains needed to actually think tactically = More Boring!)  because of the complaints of IS7 Steve on the Ru server along with the gold ammo for credits, and or course combined with power creep (The aimbot plague though its not as bad as it used to be)

  If you like up close brawling in narrow corridors, ie dumbed down and faster paced game there's the other tank game  AW which most players very quickly quit as it was boring!!! Mostly due to the boring too small maps 

:child:

 I and many others would rather play Classic WoT than V1.9 simple reason, it's a better game! :P


Edited by Tealo, 06 May 2020 - 08:57 AM.


Cobra6 #29 Posted 06 May 2020 - 09:30 AM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 06 May 2020 - 07:40 AM, said:

 

The gameplay of 2011-2015 was even more dumbed down in my opinion.

 

There were no physics, so you couldn't drive even across water on maps. No dropping down from cliffs due to invisible walls everywhere.

 

The game had also way less tanks and game mechanics.

 

If you want a tough to swallow pill, here is one: You have played the game for thousands of hours, so the game feels dumbed down. There is nothing WG can do to fix that.

 

And if you feel the game has been dumbed down, how is the average WoT player still as bad as ever?

 

 

Because the majority of players attracted in the last 5 years are casual players without a real interest in the subject matter. They don't really care about WoT, WW2, the subject matter or improving the way the players that joined in the first 3-4 years did.

They leave faster as well which is why WG had to dumb the game down significantly in terms of mechanics in an effort to get them to stick around. Which of course they still won't since WG is creating a more "throwaway" product every time they simplify it. At the same time they scare away loads of old-hands that stuck around for *YEARS* because the game they get nowadays is no longer really challenging (and thus rewarding) the way it used to be.

 

Physics had their impact on the game and it's made it better in some areas (more map space you can use) and worse in others (Wet Soapstone( tm) Physics).

However over the years we've had:

- Viable frontal weakspots removed on pretty much all tanks.

- Massive over-armoring of nearly everything.

- Removal of tons of foliage and useful spotting locations.

- Increased amount of unflank-able "corridors" in all shapes and sizes.

- Increased amount of premium ammo required due to the above.

- Symmetrical maps maps that follow roughly the same template with exact outlined positions for each class of tank.

 

The above list of bad influences on the gameplay and the way you play this game as a result far outweighs the minor additions like physics and spaced armor mechanics.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 06 May 2020 - 09:31 AM.


malowany #30 Posted 06 May 2020 - 09:56 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 09:30 AM, said:

 

Because the majority of players attracted in the last 5 years are casual players without a real interest in the subject matter. They don't really care about WoT, WW2, the subject matter or improving the way the players that joined in the first 3-4 years did.

They leave faster as well which is why WG had to dumb the game down significantly in terms of mechanics in an effort to get them to stick around. Which of course they still won't since WG is creating a more "throwaway" product every time they simplify it. At the same time they scare away loads of old-hands that stuck around for *YEARS* because the game they get nowadays is no longer really challenging (and thus rewarding) the way it used to be.

 

Physics had their impact on the game and it's made it better in some areas (more map space you can use) and worse in others (Wet Soapstone( tm) Physics).

However over the years we've had:

- Viable frontal weakspots removed on pretty much all tanks.

- Massive over-armoring of nearly everything.

- Removal of tons of foliage and useful spotting locations.

- Increased amount of unflank-able "corridors" in all shapes and sizes.

- Increased amount of premium ammo required due to the above.

- Symmetrical maps maps that follow roughly the same template with exact outlined positions for each class of tank.

 

The above list of bad influences on the gameplay and the way you play this game as a result far outweighs the minor additions like physics and spaced armor mechanics.

 

Cobra 6

 

A good example of how dumbed-down gameplay became are the TD positions that literally are no different from just sticking in a sing saying "CAMP HERE ON THIS ONLY HILL WITH BUSHES THAT HAS CONVENIENT OVERVIEW OVER THE FLANK"



SuperOlsson #31 Posted 06 May 2020 - 09:59 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 09:30 AM, said:

 

- Removal of tons of foliage and useful spotting locations.

- Increased amount of unflank-able "corridors" in all shapes and sizes.

- Symmetrical maps maps that follow roughly the same template with exact outlined positions for each class of tank.

 

The above list of bad influences on the gameplay and the way you play this game as a result far outweighs the minor additions like physics and spaced armor mechanics.

 

Cobra 6

 

I agree on over-armoring and removal of weakspots and that, but maps weren't particularly better before. With 1.0 a lot of foliage was actually added and bushes were improved, the unflankability comes mainly from better defensive position with bushes rather than corridors, most maps are still flankable, you just have to use your brain a bit more. Though I admit some ability to switch "corridors" have disappeared.

 

The good "spotting" positions you talk of was mainly abusing map flaws in my opinion, most of them consisted of getting to a certain position early, to spot the enemy team getting into position, old El-Halluf style! Where it was a lottery going to the brawling locations whether you wold take 2-3 hits in the side or not. Many maps had these locations, and often favored one spawn over the other, Redshire south spawn still has one of these positions, where north team risk taking a lot of shots while getting to E0, this is not an element of the game that I miss particularly much.


Edited by SuperOlsson, 06 May 2020 - 09:59 AM.


chainreact0r #32 Posted 06 May 2020 - 10:02 AM

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View Postmystikro, on 05 May 2020 - 10:12 PM, said:

No. There are maps that are not corridors and you still get the spam. The excuse then is that they can't go in the field because they get shot. I pointed out that before and got people angry. It's not the maps. It's the irrelevancy of armor. You get the gold bush wanker that can just spam and not care. But if you take away the super pen and then an MAUS steam rolls towards his bush and he needs to move his [edited]to do damage fron the side, all the sudden now the spamming cockroach has to move and this makes the gameplay dynamic again. Nerf the armor and add weakspots, but just remove ridiculous pen that is autoaim. A superheavy tank should definitely have some areas that are immune to shots. But then you still have weakspots and balance it out. Pressing 2 isn't fixing the fact that some tanks have too much armor. Armor needs to go back down to historical levels. As for premium tanks that cannot be nerfed here is what you do. Nerf the Defender a bit to curb the powercreep but give it preferential matchmaking. Then you make the OP one see way more tier 10 battles than before. And then ask peeps to either keep their OP version that sees tier 10 or the nerfed version that sees max tier 9. I'm sure some people would like to keep the OP version and still complain about the game. I rather see it cut down to size and made fun rather than the useless tank it is in tier 10 now and the game breaker it is in tier 8. And because I opted for it WG needs not worry about issues with nerfing premium tanks.

If you think this is a solution, you are deluded.

If the camper loses his "super pen" he won't flank. He will just shoot HE. And if playing a Maus is as easy as just driving towards a bush without people being able to pen you, then the majority of players will play it and other overamored tanks. So what you are saying is that a meta where everybody drives slow armored tanks and the default ammo is HE is an improvement over a meta where most good tanks are already impenetrable by gold when played properly. Thank god WG doesn't read the forums. 

09:06 Added after 3 minute

View PostVsUK, on 05 May 2020 - 10:44 PM, said:

Well, based on the top trackers that monitor traffic to servers of both commercial & gaming for various reason's. It's in a steady decline since about 8 months after the introduction of Premium Ammo & then it dipped more when they started editing existing tanks to make them more difficult to pen with reg ammo. Why else do you think they've pushed this onto console gamers? Because that's where most of the wallet warriors are. People who are willing to pay Microsoft or Sony to play multiplayer games they've already purchased, on a console they've already purchased. Using electricity & broadband they also pay for. I mean, if they're willing to do that, then they're willing to spam gold 24/7.

So you pay no money for your pc, electricity and internet?

Sometimes i feel like all the special people in this game gathered and elected you as their one and only representative on the forums. 


Edited by chainreact0r, 06 May 2020 - 10:06 AM.


TankkiPoju #33 Posted 06 May 2020 - 10:11 AM

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View PostTealo, on 06 May 2020 - 08:50 AM, said:

 I and many others would rather play Classic WoT than V1.9 simple reason, it's a better game! :P

 

You could play the classic WoT during an event maybe a year ago. It was simply terrible.



SuperOlsson #34 Posted 06 May 2020 - 10:18 AM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 06 May 2020 - 10:11 AM, said:

 

You could play the classic WoT during an event maybe a year ago. It was simply terrible.

Indeed, one part of the old game I forgot about when playing is was the horrible collision physics, you could not push tanks, once you collided with another tank, including allies, both tanks stopped at the spot, getting broadside with an ally where the tracks scraped against each other could be a nightmare to get out of. Though it was useful sometimes when rushing into some cover, drive 60 km/h into that rock and just stop on the spot!



General_Jack_D_Ripper #35 Posted 06 May 2020 - 10:19 AM

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View Postchainreact0r, on 06 May 2020 - 10:02 AM, said:

If you think this is a solution, you are deluded.

If the camper loses his "super pen" he won't flank. He will just shoot HE. And if playing a Maus is as easy as just driving towards a bush without people being able to pen you, then the majority of players will play it and other overamored tanks. So what you are saying is that a meta where everybody drives slow armored tanks and the default ammo is HE is an improvement over a meta where most good tanks are already impenetrable by gold when played properly. Thank god WG doesn't read the forums. 

 

That are a lot of strawman arguments for such a short post.

 

View PostSuperOlsson, on 06 May 2020 - 10:18 AM, said:

Indeed, one part of the old game I forgot about when playing is was the horrible collision physics, you could not push tanks, once you collided with another tank, including allies, both tanks stopped at the spot, getting broadside with an ally where the tracks scraped against each other could be a nightmare to get out of. Though it was useful sometimes when rushing into some cover, drive 60 km/h into that rock and just stop on the spot!

Just thought yesterday about the old collision model and how much I miss it. You could so very high ramming damage in Panther II, E-50 (I think  E-50 was introduced as Tier IX before the first physics)

Or driving full throttle to a cliff and shoot at the enemy below.

Good times ><


Edited by General_Jack_D_Ripper, 06 May 2020 - 10:22 AM.


TankkiPoju #36 Posted 06 May 2020 - 10:19 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 09:30 AM, said:

However over the years we've had:

- Viable frontal weakspots removed on pretty much all tanks.

- Massive over-armoring of nearly everything

 

Yet at the same time people demand more armor on tanks (like E100 and IS4) and T110E5 is the worst tier 10 heavy, because it has a viable frontal weakspot.

 

I think Shishx had the only sensible argument in this thread, and even that was silly.

 

WG can't fix the game, because no matter what they do, a lot of people will be unhappy.

 

Either increase armor or reduce it, 50% of people will cry.

 

Remove weakspots and people will cry. Add weakspots and people will cry just like with E5.

 

Remove corridors or add bushes, and people will cry about invisible tanks and TDs shooting therm.

 

Remove arty and people will cry about hulldown heavies.

 

Remove premium ammo, and people wiill complain about OP heavy tanks.


Edited by TankkiPoju, 06 May 2020 - 10:33 AM.


Cobra6 #37 Posted 06 May 2020 - 10:57 AM

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View PostSuperOlsson, on 06 May 2020 - 08:59 AM, said:

 

I agree on over-armoring and removal of weakspots and that, but maps weren't particularly better before. With 1.0 a lot of foliage was actually added and bushes were improved, the unflankability comes mainly from better defensive position with bushes rather than corridors, most maps are still flankable, you just have to use your brain a bit more. Though I admit some ability to switch "corridors" have disappeared.

 

The good "spotting" positions you talk of was mainly abusing map flaws in my opinion, most of them consisted of getting to a certain position early, to spot the enemy team getting into position, old El-Halluf style! Where it was a lottery going to the brawling locations whether you wold take 2-3 hits in the side or not. Many maps had these locations, and often favored one spawn over the other, Redshire south spawn still has one of these positions, where north team risk taking a lot of shots while getting to E0, this is not an element of the game that I miss particularly much.

 

The bushes nowadays on a lot of positions are very flaky as there is no relation between their camo value and their appearance, so it's very difficult to grasp how effective a position in. Even when you are fully in a bush nowadays you will still get spotted at ranges well over proxy-spotting range.

 

It's indeed wrong if one spawn has an advantage and it's something that needs to be fixed on a per-map basis by either adding a location for the other spawn or removing the offensive spot.

 

Switching corridors is a vital thing for lights and medium tanks and on a lot of maps, it has become impossible to do without taking a ton of damage in the process or driving all around the back of the map to the other side. When you drive any tank on most maps, once you reach a corridor of your liking, you can be safe in the knowledge you won't be shot in the side and will always see enemies coming if they decide to try and go around you.

 

 

View PostTankkiPoju, on 06 May 2020 - 09:19 AM, said:

 

Yet at the same time people demand more armor on tanks (like E100 and IS4) and T110E5 is the worst tier 10 heavy, because it has a viable frontal weakspot.

 

I think Shishx had the only sensible argument in this thread, and even that was silly.

 

WG can't fix the game, because no matter what they do, a lot of people will be unhappy.

 

Either increase armor or reduce it, 50% of people will cry.

 

Remove weakspots and people will cry. Add weakspots and people will cry just like with E5.

 

Remove corridors or add bushes, and people will cry about invisible tanks and TDs shooting therm.

 

Remove arty and people will cry about hulldown heavies.

 

Remove premium ammo, and people wiill complain about OP heavy tanks.

 

Thing is, it's all connected though: The issue that there is no viable way to engage a tank other then using premium ammo at a sliver of a weakspot or arty, means something is wrong with the balancing of the armor.

The ever growing problem that is premium ammo is a direct result of removing weak spots over the years and the inflation of (effective) armour values on tanks. Without these two causes we would not need or see so much premium ammo spam in the first place.

 

Back in 2010=>2014 you never needed premium ammo if you knew what you were doing, you could pretty much (as a same tier tank) always engage your enemy as long as you knew where to shoot, even frontally. This was a great system that promoted knowledge about the game, the tanks and the mechanics.

 

Complaining about invisible tanks shooting you should be an incentive to learn the game (mechanics), not one for Wargaming to make it impossible to do and thus appease players that hardly care about the game (if they did, they'd actually try and learn about it and it's mechanics).

People complaining about the E5 are just said they can't invisibly stomp over most things they met, like they could before. Even for the cupola you needed premium ammo due to the extreme angling.

 

The problem with people demanding more armor on the E-100 and IS-4 is because these tanks are still "legacy balanced" and come up against tons of tanks which are blatantly better armoured yet do not suffer a penalty in mobility because of it.

However, the problem is not that the E-100 and IS-4 need more armour, it's that all the other tanks need *LESS* of it, otherwise you are just perpetually increasing the size of the problem over the years like WG have been doing.

 

The big issue is that if you lower the quality of your gameplay to appease to bad players, you will have to remain doing so ever more decreasing the quality to appease to even worse players until finally your game is suitable to people functioning on the mental level of bot programs.

This has the detrimental side effect that on the way you'll scare/piss off everyone who has invested time and effort at becoming competent at the game. First it's the least invested players that leave but gradually you'll lose your more dedicated audience as well as you are fundamentally changing the complexity and experience of the game that got them invested in the first place.

That is one of the reasons why there are so many old hands and good/great players from the past  have left or stopped playing, it's not that they got tired of WoT, they got tired of the way WoT has been developed over the years.

At it's core, WoT is partially still a very good game and also partially still has the potential to become a very good game, but that potential is not being exploited however. It's actively being avoided in favour of attracting as many players as possible and thus watering down the experience for everyone in the process.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 06 May 2020 - 11:07 AM.


Szatanshow #38 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:02 AM

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All map reworeked is bad - you got hiding bushes + open 50-70% of map empty killzones.

Edited by Szatanshow, 06 May 2020 - 11:02 AM.


TankkiPoju #39 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:05 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 10:57 AM, said:

Back in 2010=>2014 you never needed premium ammo if you knew what you were doing, you could pretty much (as a same tier tank) always engage your enemy as long as you knew where to shoot, even frontally. This was a great system that promoted knowledge about the game, the tanks and the mechanics.

 

I seem to remember back in the day, a LOT more battles ended up with one single tank killing rest of enemy team, because the enemy team cant pen the one remaining tank at all. But maybe this is what people want in their super heavies.

10:06 Added after 1 minute

View PostSzatanshow, on 06 May 2020 - 11:02 AM, said:

All map reworeked is bad - you got hiding bushes + open 50-70% of map empty killzones.

 

Didn't we just argue in this same thread the reworked maps are too much like corridors and there aren't enough bushes :)

 

Like I already said, 50% of people will complain anyway.


Edited by TankkiPoju, 06 May 2020 - 11:09 AM.


Cobra6 #40 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:14 AM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 06 May 2020 - 10:05 AM, said:

 

I seem to remember back in the day, a LOT more battles ended up with one single tank killing rest of enemy team, because the enemy team cant pen the one remaining tank at all.

 

Weird I know, if your teams' top tier players suck, get killed and then you lose the match if you are not a competent player that can outplay the last remaining enemy.

 

Back in the days I did not have a hugely lower winrate (1-2%) and I never shot premium ammo yet I still won the majority of matches I played.

 

On a sidenote, this is why I always engage the most "dumbed down noob heavy" still, since that is the tank your team will struggle with, not the paper medium next to it that everyone can pen.

 

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