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"Ramblings of an old man" or a brief analysis of WoTs decline in gameplay

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TankkiPoju #41 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:19 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 11:14 AM, said:

Back in the days I did not have a hugely lower winrate (1-2%) and I never shot premium ammo yet I still won the majority of matches I played.

 

Did you play more on lower tiers back in the day? I'm sure most of us did.

 

I won about 45-55% of games on tiers 4-6 in 2011-2014. Now it's around 60-70% if I play those tiers.

 

EDIT: Actually I don't think I had a single tier 7-8 tank when premium ammo was for gold only. I played mostly F2P anyway.

 

EDIT2: I had T-54, forgot that :) Man I sucked in it.


Edited by TankkiPoju, 06 May 2020 - 11:22 AM.


chainreact0r #42 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:29 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 11:14 AM, said:

 

On a sidenote, this is why I always engage the most "dumbed down noob heavy" still, since that is the tank your team will struggle with, not the paper medium next to it that everyone can pen.

 

 

Depending on your mentality this can be the other way around. If your teammates can't pen an armored target, you should first damage the paper medium and then finish the armored target yourself resulting in more damage. It's risky, cause your bots can get slaughtered by the armored guy, but the game is 1v29 anyway so it doesn't really matter.



TheJ4ckal #43 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:34 AM

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Do you think the real tankers complained about the maps in ww2 and wanted them changed to win more?

If people are as good as they say, why can't you adapt to a map, as you clearly think you are an expert on strategy and map design. It should be easy against as these Muppets that don't know what they are doing.

Yet all we hear is "good" players moaning how they don't like a map. 

Your post does nothing to make this a good forum.



StinkyStonky #44 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:39 AM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 06 May 2020 - 07:40 AM, said:

The gameplay of 2011-2015 was even more dumbed down in my opinion.

 

If you want a tough to swallow pill, here is one: You have played the game for thousands of hours, so the game feels dumbed down. There is nothing WG can do to fix that.

 

And if you feel the game has been dumbed down, how is the average WoT player still as bad as ever?

You are exactly spot on.  What you're described is called the "Skill Inflation Problem" in the games industry.

Here's a clip that explains it in general from a talk at Games Development Conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ&feature=youtu.be&t=841 (explained in 90 seconds). 

 

Note this is also a far better explanation of the OP's dramatic drop in stats than his explanation "I play terrible nowadays, mostly due to me being bad, can't hit as many shots as I used to, can't seem to penetrate as many of my enemies as I'd like or was used to".  The reason he can't hit or pen like he used to is his opponents are now MUCH better than they used to be.

 

 



ilmavarvas #45 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:46 AM

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View PostTheJ4ckal, on 06 May 2020 - 11:34 AM, said:

Do you think the real tankers complained about the maps in ww2 and wanted them changed to win more?

If people are as good as they say, why can't you adapt to a map, as you clearly think you are an expert on strategy and map design. It should be easy against as these Muppets that don't know what they are doing.

Yet all we hear is "good" players moaning how they don't like a map. 

Your post does nothing to make this a good forum.

 

Because these new dumbed down maps makes it impossible to adapt, since there's nothing to adapt anymore, you have 3 corridors and that's about it, not much spotting, not much sneaking around, not much anything anymore - just take the most armored tank and drive through corridor 1, 2 or 3 and remember to press "2" at the beginning of match.



General_Jack_D_Ripper #46 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:47 AM

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View PostStinkyStonky, on 06 May 2020 - 11:39 AM, said:

You are exactly spot on.  What you're described is called the "Skill Inflation Problem" in the games industry.

Here's a clip that explains it in general from a talk at Games Development Conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ&feature=youtu.be&t=841 (explained in 90 seconds). 

 

Note this is also a far better explanation of the OP's dramatic drop in stats than his explanation "I play terrible nowadays, mostly due to me being bad, can't hit as many shots as I used to, can't seem to penetrate as many of my enemies as I'd like or was used to".  The reason he can't hit or pen like he used to is his opponents are now MUCH better than they used to be.

 

 

 

I completely agree.

When I played Ausf. B back in the day (E-75 was introduced back then as well), I teached myself how to sidescrape. Never saw I somebody doing it, but the tank taught me. (I surely was not the first player to "discover" this).

Nowadays even bad players sidescrape with their heavy tanks.

 

But there is also helping by WG. Back in the day, the target marker went green, when you could penetrate the armor thickness in a 90° angle, therefore it was easy to bait shots and bounce.

Today the target marker tells u your chance and the current angle (I think). Which makes penetrating tanks which u do not know much easier.

Which means people who are not very interested/ invested in the game do way better.



Tealo #47 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:48 AM

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View PostStinkyStonky, on 06 May 2020 - 10:39 AM, said:

You are exactly spot on.  What you're described is called the "Skill Inflation Problem" in the games industry.

Here's a clip that explains it in general from a talk at Games Development Conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ&feature=youtu.be&t=841 (explained in 90 seconds). 

 

Note this is also a far better explanation of the OP's dramatic drop in stats than his explanation "I play terrible nowadays, mostly due to me being bad, can't hit as many shots as I used to, can't seem to penetrate as many of my enemies as I'd like or was used to".  The reason he can't hit or pen like he used to is his opponents are now MUCH better than they used to be.

 

 

 

 Not in this game! :facepalm: Don't ever use XVM because the player list is The Red Sea :deer:



Slyspy #48 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:49 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 07:41 AM, said:

Unfortunately, you are pretty much exactly right.

 

That game, over the years, has become extremely dumbed down gameplay wise compared to what it used to be.

 

I've seen many friends and clan-mates leave over the years (all good or great players) because genuine skill has become less and less of a deciding factor, there is no reward anymore for improving, knowing weakspots, learning game mechanics etc.

When you can just drive into a completely sheltered corridor and spam gold-ammo at your opponent negating their armor in most cases with ease, what is there to be excited about or to reward you? You are not achieving anything, the game is simply handing it to you.

 

Cobra 6

 

If this were truly the case then I doubt my lockdown WR would be so much lower than my old singleton WR.

 

View PostStinkyStonky, on 06 May 2020 - 11:39 AM, said:

You are exactly spot on.  What you're described is called the "Skill Inflation Problem" in the games industry.

Here's a clip that explains it in general from a talk at Games Development Conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ&feature=youtu.be&t=841 (explained in 90 seconds). 

 

Note this is also a far better explanation of the OP's dramatic drop in stats than his explanation "I play terrible nowadays, mostly due to me being bad, can't hit as many shots as I used to, can't seem to penetrate as many of my enemies as I'd like or was used to".  The reason he can't hit or pen like he used to is his opponents are now MUCH better than they used to be.

 

I can relate to that part of the OP's comment because I am in the same boat. What you claim as a possibility is not exclusive of what he (or I) am experiencing. It is not either/or. Skill is relative to your environment, not independent of it. How ever I can tell you this - I now struggle with all aspects of the game including map knowledge (and so positioning and reading the game) and tank knowledge (and so knowing the relative strengths and weakness). It seems that, despite trying, I am unable to learn and overcome these shortcomings and this leads to frustration with myself and the game.

 

In my case however it doesn't lead to any rose-tinted belief that the past was better (I was never a unicum).

 


Edited by Slyspy, 06 May 2020 - 11:57 AM.


LethalWalou #49 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:59 AM

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View PostStinkyStonky, on 06 May 2020 - 10:39 AM, said:

 his opponents are now MUCH better than they used to be.

 

Wouldn't actually call the players better, more appropriate thing to describe them is that they learned from what was done to them. There are things that worked for me some months ago, but don't work anymore because the playerbase adapted a bit to it. They learn to avoid certain areas, not because they understand what is going on but because they connect the position to the memory of getting shot at or killed. For example on Fisherman's bay, old and current version, people used to cross to the city too close to the middle, so they got shot at. Over time, they adapted to it and started crossing further away. Now they might not have understood fully that the enemies got to the middle first and had cover to spot and shoot them from. But they for sure noticed that crossing in that location got them shot at or killed, so they either had to move closer to the middle, or further away, latter of course being the obvious right choice.



SuperOlsson #50 Posted 06 May 2020 - 12:02 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 10:57 AM, said:

 

The bushes nowadays on a lot of positions are very flaky as there is no relation between their camo value and their appearance, so it's very difficult to grasp how effective a position in. Even when you are fully in a bush nowadays you will still get spotted at ranges well over proxy-spotting range.

 

It's indeed wrong if one spawn has an advantage and it's something that needs to be fixed on a per-map basis by either adding a location for the other spawn or removing the offensive spot.

 

Switching corridors is a vital thing for lights and medium tanks and on a lot of maps, it has become impossible to do without taking a ton of damage in the process or driving all around the back of the map to the other side. When you drive any tank on most maps, once you reach a corridor of your liking, you can be safe in the knowledge you won't be shot in the side and will always see enemies coming if they decide to try and go around you.

 

Cobra 6

 

Yeah few bushes gives cover from all directions, it helps a lot to try to figure out in which directions and what situations they don't work in, overall I think they work fine. On which maps are switching corridors impossible to do? I can think of Empires border and mountain pass where it's unviable/inconvenient, and then of course there are situations where you can't move because you are pinned down, such as hill on mines or Karelia.

 

When people speak of flanking nowadays, to my experience it doesn't work as good anymore because of 2 reasons:

1. People nowadays retreats immediately (on higher tiers anyway) when getting into crossfire, this used to not be the case as much in 2013-2014, where you could pretty much just flank and farm noobs all day long.

2. The viable flanking routes are recognised as key areas, and will be protected by good players who either want to win or farm you for damage.

 

Also simply opening up maps won't work either, just look at ghost town, when it was new there were tons and tons of opportunities  to shoot into enemies in town from the sides, and what happened? Virtually no one takes those routes anymore because of this. This was the case before as well (e.g. Stalingrad), when people could just get shot in the sides from anywhere and many position were a gamble whether they work or not, guess what happened? *drumroll* - People stopped going there! And just congregate on the map edges instead.

 

Just rolling back to 2013 won't work either, because today everyone knows how to pen your IS-3/Type 59 with just 200 pen, which wasn't the case before, people would blindfire the good "spotting bushes" all day long, because back then they were both fewer and smaller, and people have finally starting doing it nowadays on Malinovka, making it a gamble going to the spotting bushes in a light tank there. And people would, like today, retreat when getting into crossfire.



StinkyStonky #51 Posted 06 May 2020 - 12:05 PM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 06 May 2020 - 09:19 AM, said:

WG can't fix the game, because no matter what they do, a lot of people will be unhappy.

The main thing that WG does to solve this problem is introduce variety.

10 nations, 10 levels, 5 tank types, multiple lines.

40+ maps, Encounter, Assault, Grand battles.

Equipment, crew skills, components.

Global Map (Seasons and Campaigns), Skirmishes, Advances.

7 Campaign reward tanks from two styles of personal missions,

Daily missions, weekday missions, weekend specials.

Frontlines, Road To Berlin, Football/Moon Pool/Leviathan/etc, Halloween specials, Ranked battles.

Tank Rewards, Tier 8 prem marathons.

Top of the Tree, Referral program.

Marks of Excellence, Ace Tankers, Medals.

Christmas loot boxes, Battle Pass.

The variety is almost endless.

 

This creates the opportunity for people to moan that there is too much to do !!

 

The truth is that most people who moan are in fact just bored of the game.  They've spend too many thousands of hours side scraping or going hull down and never leaping from a building, upgrading a sword or opening a treasure chest and they don't even realise why they are actually unhappy.  They pine for the "Good ole days" and blame something popular like the maps, arty or prem ammo.  

 

Those things aren't the problem.



mpf1959 #52 Posted 06 May 2020 - 12:26 PM

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Any books on a second rage-quit? :trollface:

Cobra6 #53 Posted 06 May 2020 - 01:13 PM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 06 May 2020 - 10:19 AM, said:

 

Did you play more on lower tiers back in the day? I'm sure most of us did.

 

I won about 45-55% of games on tiers 4-6 in 2011-2014. Now it's around 60-70% if I play those tiers.

 

EDIT: Actually I don't think I had a single tier 7-8 tank when premium ammo was for gold only. I played mostly F2P anyway.

 

EDIT2: I had T-54, forgot that :) Man I sucked in it.

 

Actually, no, my most played tier is Tier 8 and that was pretty much the tier I stuck on for a looooong time. Pretty much all my Tier 8 matches are from that time, I don't play it much in randoms anymore.

Tier 9 I did play more later on and Tier 10 I started playing very late as I just don't find it very interesting.

Tier 7-6 are mostly light tanks I play nowadays.

 

View Postchainreact0r, on 06 May 2020 - 10:29 AM, said:

 

Depending on your mentality this can be the other way around. If your teammates can't pen an armored target, you should first damage the paper medium and then finish the armored target yourself resulting in more damage. It's risky, cause your bots can get slaughtered by the armored guy, but the game is 1v29 anyway so it doesn't really matter.

 

Problem is I'd like to win consistently and for that you do need team mates, so anything that endangers their health I will try and take out. They might need that health later on to spot when I'm a one-shot from all the protecting and brawling.

 

View PostSuperOlsson, on 06 May 2020 - 11:02 AM, said:

 

Yeah few bushes gives cover from all directions, it helps a lot to try to figure out in which directions and what situations they don't work in, overall I think they work fine. On which maps are switching corridors impossible to do? I can think of Empires border and mountain pass where it's unviable/inconvenient, and then of course there are situations where you can't move because you are pinned down, such as hill on mines or Karelia.

 

When people speak of flanking nowadays, to my experience it doesn't work as good anymore because of 2 reasons:

1. People nowadays retreats immediately (on higher tiers anyway) when getting into crossfire, this used to not be the case as much in 2013-2014, where you could pretty much just flank and farm noobs all day long.

2. The viable flanking routes are recognised as key areas, and will be protected by good players who either want to win or farm you for damage.

 

Also simply opening up maps won't work either, just look at ghost town, when it was new there were tons and tons of opportunities  to shoot into enemies in town from the sides, and what happened? Virtually no one takes those routes anymore because of this. This was the case before as well (e.g. Stalingrad), when people could just get shot in the sides from anywhere and many position were a gamble whether they work or not, guess what happened? *drumroll* - People stopped going there! And just congregate on the map edges instead.

 

Just rolling back to 2013 won't work either, because today everyone knows how to pen your IS-3/Type 59 with just 200 pen, which wasn't the case before, people would blindfire the good "spotting bushes" all day long, because back then they were both fewer and smaller, and people have finally starting doing it nowadays on Malinovka, making it a gamble going to the spotting bushes in a light tank there. And people would, like today, retreat when getting into crossfire.

 

Well that is the issue with maps like Stalingrad and also Steppes, big open killing fields in the middle that could be used to create actual playable map areas rather then desolate wastes. This is what I would consider "opening up maps", basically make all the areas that are currently unplayable actually playable.

With the redesign Erlenberg for instance lost a big chunk of playable map space near both bases where they created these artificial TD ridges with full bush cover. Basically 300m around those, you can't play anymore unless you like losing all your HP.

 

People do indeed retreat nowadays which is good tactical awareness and should be applauded

 

The problem with Ghost Town is that people found out that taking the actual city has very little use, it's surrounded by big open killing fields on all sides so you are effectively boxing yourself in, once you take the city, you can't leave it anymore. This again is just bad map design.

 

Maps like Prokh and Malinovka are actually good maps that are open at the same time, they give you lot's of manoeuvring space that you can use which isn't an insta-kill dead-zone while still allowing snipers to work dynamically.

 

Cobra 6

 

 


Edited by Cobra6, 06 May 2020 - 01:13 PM.


CandyVanMan #54 Posted 06 May 2020 - 01:23 PM

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Horrible map design and terrible vehicle balance is the biggest problem now.

All maps are dumbed down so much now compared to back in the golden era of WoT (before world of corridors when you actually had to understand spotting mechanics and armor layout of tanks due to lack of prem for credits), now you just trade hp hulldown versus other hulldown tanks.
There's a designated brawling area on most maps, where you can mostly just trade hp, with no real flanking opportunities, then you have a bunch of bushes near both bases for TD players to comfortably camp and dish out some damage after the game is already decided, but they can feel good about themselves for getting off 2-3 shots at the end and not realize that they didn't do anything for their team.

Then we have fun and engaging tanks like 279(e), Chieftain and EBR that completely screw up the balance of tier 10, and only one of them is available in the tech tree, these tanks also ruin ranked battles completely, and whoever's got more of them will usually win.

WG is incapable of admitting to mistakes, and they won't nerf reward vehicles, despite players running 10%+ higher winrate in 279 compared to all their other tier 10 tanks.

 

Also, arty is still broken, just like it was when the game first came out; it was supposed to break up campy gameplay, but that has only worked to some degree for clan wars, in randoms it just makes the few potential flanking positions completely unplayable due to lack of arty cover, in turn making the game MORE campy instead of less.

 

When there's no arty or BS tanks like 279 in the match, this is by far my favourite game, ever.



3W1_ #55 Posted 06 May 2020 - 02:06 PM

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i cant see anymore of those 15v15 tX battles where ur team is full of idiots in very good tanks. i always lose motivation after a beautiful 3 arty 4 lights mm with a team that would be too retarded to even play t2 against t1.

morgotz #56 Posted 06 May 2020 - 05:47 PM

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View PostStinkyStonky, on 06 May 2020 - 11:39 AM, said:

You are exactly spot on.  What you're described is called the "Skill Inflation Problem" in the games industry.

Here's a clip that explains it in general from a talk at Games Development Conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ&feature=youtu.be&t=841 (explained in 90 seconds). 

 

Note this is also a far better explanation of the OP's dramatic drop in stats than his explanation "I play terrible nowadays, mostly due to me being bad, can't hit as many shots as I used to, can't seem to penetrate as many of my enemies as I'd like or was used to".  The reason he can't hit or pen like he used to is his opponents are now MUCH better than they used to be.

 

 

 

while the playerbase truly adapted to the maps, WG made it imo easier due to the increased spots you can go hulldown due to rubble, basically fitting every type of tank of there is enough space to maneuver

and no, its not that I cant penetrate or actually hit players because they are better, but because I got worse and lost the feeling for the velocity of shells (incredibly most blatant on my most played tank (you may guess which one))

 

though sometimes Id like to attribute it to the newer tanks, hence powercreep. Just had to fight twice an obj 430U in my 113 and I have the strange feeling that the 430U is simply a better 113.

View Postmpf1959, on 06 May 2020 - 12:26 PM, said:

Any books on a second rage-quit? :trollface:

 

nah, rather a slow fade away, probably when I have to be back at work

 

View PostCobra6, on 06 May 2020 - 01:13 PM, said:

Well that is the issue with maps like Stalingrad and also Steppes, big open killing fields in the middle that could be used to create actual playable map areas rather then desolate wastes. This is what I would consider "opening up maps", basically make all the areas that are currently unplayable actually playable.

With the redesign Erlenberg for instance lost a big chunk of playable map space near both bases where they created these artificial TD ridges with full bush cover. Basically 300m around those, you can't play anymore unless you like losing all your HP.

making them playable would mean adding cover, that would lead to more close range engagements.

If youd consider Westfield, adding another lane of houses and reducing the hills in the north west would be a viable option



mystikro #57 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:06 PM

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View Postchainreact0r, on 06 May 2020 - 11:02 AM, said:

If you think this is a solution, you are deluded.

If the camper loses his "super pen" he won't flank. He will just shoot HE. And if playing a Maus is as easy as just driving towards a bush without people being able to pen you, then the majority of players will play it and other overamored tanks. So what you are saying is that a meta where everybody drives slow armored tanks and the default ammo is HE is an improvement over a meta where most good tanks are already impenetrable by gold when played properly. Thank god WG doesn't read the forums.

I think this here gold spammer got mad. Your 62 WR isn't done on standard ammo. CHANGE MY MIND.

 

Don't worry. In the end the game will bleed so many players new and old that it will be just you and a few more gold spammers. And you can spam each other all day and feel like you have skill by having a working 2 key.


Edited by mystikro, 06 May 2020 - 11:08 PM.


Bulldog_Drummond #58 Posted 06 May 2020 - 11:19 PM

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View Postmpf1959, on 06 May 2020 - 11:26 AM, said:

Any books on a second rage-quit? :trollface:

 

Honest Bulldog will give you 5 to 4 (cash only)

These "OMG it's all dreadful and I've had enough and these are my brilliant suggestions for improvement but I don't care because I'm off anyway" threads have been appearing weekly on the forum all the time I have been here

So that's maybe 500, more likely 1000+ similar posts.

I guess it gives people a chance to get things off their chest


Edited by Bulldog_Drummond, 06 May 2020 - 11:21 PM.


Slyspy #59 Posted 07 May 2020 - 12:18 AM

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View Postmystikro, on 06 May 2020 - 11:06 PM, said:

I think this here gold spammer got mad. Your 62 WR isn't done on standard ammo. CHANGE MY MIND.

 

Don't worry. In the end the game will bleed so many players new and old that it will be just you and a few more gold spammers. And you can spam each other all day and feel like you have skill by having a working 2 key.

 

Dangerously close to heresy for a Dinger. Say 20 Hail Marys.



Inappropriate_noob #60 Posted 07 May 2020 - 04:04 AM

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Here's an idea, why don't you old sweats all go post all of this on the RU forums, then maybe WG might just listen and get the message you all wish to convey, failing that,suck it up,no beneficial change is going to come sadly:(





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