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Noobs observation on crushing defeats.


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Lee3452 #1 Posted 07 May 2020 - 04:49 PM

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Since coming back to the game and trying to improve my game play. I have been looking at my game play and what is also happening to my team once I am destroyed.  When being overwhelmed by the enemy, I wonder where my team has gone. Only to see that it has been wiped out. On examining the hit log I see more times than not. That most of the hits taken are from multiple tanks using premium ammo. Whilst I can't say for certain that the rest of the enemy team has predominately fired premium ammo the outcome would suggest otherwise. By the same example I can't say that my team was not using it either. In other matches when I have been hit more than once by the same player using premium ammo I check to see what sort of player I was up against. The many posts on the forums suggest it is other fellow noobs using it as the good players only use it as a last resort. However when I look these players up they generally have 54% or above win rates. More evident in the reward tanks where I seldom come across one not firing premium ammo. The last battle I just played was a 60%er shooting my Conqueror with his KPZ 50t on full premium. I had nowhere to hide my hull so it wasn't to overcome my turret. I have nothing against premium ammo but it may go someway why to explain why there are such crushing defeats and the speed at which they happen.

The majority of these experiences I am referring to are where the opposing sides are generally equal in dispositions and have not all gone to one side and crush the team by weight of numbers before rolling up the rest.

 



Private_Miros #2 Posted 07 May 2020 - 04:57 PM

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Crushing defeats happen because one team makes many mistakes, often in combination with a good early move from the winning team leading to vision control and/or map control.

 

More penetration can help to punish the mistakes marginally faster, but you mainly still need tanks to expose themselves by peeking stupidly too often.

 

Take the Conqueror in your example. Its hull was exposed, you say. At that point it doesn't matter what ammo is shot at you. You made a mistake there and then. If you were top tier and that was early in battle, blame that, not the kind of ammo that punished that move.



SuNo_TeSLa #3 Posted 07 May 2020 - 05:11 PM

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Premium ammo hasn't got much impact, poor positioning, spotting and armor usage does.

Lee3452 #4 Posted 07 May 2020 - 05:13 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 07 May 2020 - 03:57 PM, said:

Crushing defeats happen because one team makes many mistakes, often in combination with a good early move from the winning team leading to vision control and/or map control.

 

More penetration can help to punish the mistakes marginally faster, but you mainly still need tanks to expose themselves by peeking stupidly too often.

 

Take the Conqueror in your example. Its hull was exposed, you say. At that point it doesn't matter what ammo is shot at you. You made a mistake there and then. If you were top tier and that was early in battle, blame that, not the kind of ammo that punished that move.

No. Not early the in battle, it was towards the end. We were fighting it out in the built up area of Ensk.

That was the point I was making he had no reason to shoot 4 premium rounds into me. 5 of us top Tier rest T8 and 1 arty. He finished top damage on his team. So I would expect his load out is premium all the way. Is he they same sort of player who comes on the forums complaining of dreadful teams and it being to easy as the enemy are full of noobs.



Private_Miros #5 Posted 07 May 2020 - 05:15 PM

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View PostLee3452, on 07 May 2020 - 04:13 PM, said:

No. Not early the in battle, it was towards the end. We were fighting it out in the built up area of Ensk.

That was the point I was making he had no reason to shoot 4 premium rounds into me. 5 of us top Tier rest T8 and 1 arty. He finished top damage on his team. So I would expect his load out is premium all the way. Is he they same sort of player who comes on the forums complaining of dreadful teams and it being to easy as the enemy are full of noobs.

 

So your main argument supporting/illustrating your opening statement is irrelevant to your opening statement?

 

This started well.


Edited by Private_Miros, 07 May 2020 - 05:16 PM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #6 Posted 07 May 2020 - 05:22 PM

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View PostLee3452, on 07 May 2020 - 05:13 PM, said:

No. Not early the in battle, it was towards the end. We were fighting it out in the built up area of Ensk.

That was the point I was making he had no reason to shoot 4 premium rounds into me. 5 of us top Tier rest T8 and 1 arty. He finished top damage on his team. So I would expect his load out is premium all the way. Is he they same sort of player who comes on the forums complaining of dreadful teams and it being to easy as the enemy are full of noobs.

 

On average if most people are spamming gold then you'll have just as many gold-spammers on your team as the enemy team does so the net effect on the game result is zero. If you lost it's because you got outplayed not because someone pressed their 2 key.



Desyatnik_Pansy #7 Posted 07 May 2020 - 05:24 PM

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View PostLee3452, on 07 May 2020 - 05:13 PM, said:

No. Not early the in battle, it was towards the end. We were fighting it out in the built up area of Ensk.

That was the point I was making he had no reason to shoot 4 premium rounds into me. 5 of us top Tier rest T8 and 1 arty. He finished top damage on his team. So I would expect his load out is premium all the way. Is he they same sort of player who comes on the forums complaining of dreadful teams and it being to easy as the enemy are full of noobs.

 

Because he finished top damage on his team, his loadout = all Premium? :unsure:

 

Tbh there's multiple reasons he could have been firing Premium without really knowing the situation. Perhaps you had a tank on your team that actually was pretty well armoured against him and he'd loaded it for that. Perhaps he's frustrated about using standard or something lately and started firing only HEAT (basing this off of someone lately who threw a hissyfit about Frontline and switched to full Premium loadouts, in FL Of all places!). Perhaps he's like me and forgotten he's switched to Gold at some point and hasn't switched back (in a game in my Chimera the other day I actually had a perfect case of this. I switched to Gold for a 257 And it took me almost a minute after the 257 Had died before I realised I still had it loaded and was shooting tanks that really didn't warrant it :teethhappy:).



nikolaink123 #8 Posted 07 May 2020 - 05:26 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 07 May 2020 - 03:57 PM, said:

Crushing defeats happen because one team makes many mistakes, often in combination with a good early move from the winning team leading to vision control and/or map control.

 

More penetration can help to punish the mistakes marginally faster, but you mainly still need tanks to expose themselves by peeking stupidly too often.

 

Take the Conqueror in your example. Its hull was exposed, you say. At that point it doesn't matter what ammo is shot at you. You made a mistake there and then. If you were top tier and that was early in battle, blame that, not the kind of ammo that punished that move.

View PostSuNo_TeSLa, on 07 May 2020 - 04:11 PM, said:

Premium ammo hasn't got much impact, poor positioning, spotting and armor usage does.

This

 

End of thread.



Hyina #9 Posted 07 May 2020 - 05:30 PM

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The explanations for misplays have already been explain by some.

 

As for premium rounds, there are several categories:

 

1. Most commonly, they are players who prefer to load full prem regardless of good or poor players. When we consider the amount of credits present in game, with many people having tens or hundreds of millions of credits, it matters little to them so they fire full prem as they are lazy.

2. The player has ran out of regular rounds earlier on in the battle already.

3. That is a reward tank you speak of for Ranked Battles, they may be trying hard to mark their tank and loading full prem as a result. Now one wonders how difficult is it to switch ammo in battle, most of the time that is no problem, but when you're in the midst of engaging multiple targets, it's simply time consuming to take that extra second to reload which may well affect outcome. Plus you create possible chances for error. For example recently when I marked the tier 5 covenanter, I made a calculated play to rush 2 t6 heavies to kill them, after bouncing 2 mags on the rear and side of KV2, I realised I had regular AP loaded and it led to my destruction and loss as a direct result. 

 

Not making excuses for many premium ammo users out there, I refrain from doing it myself 80% of the time but when I am marking esp for 100% I am ruling out as many little chances for errors as possible. Some tanks I don't need to, but some with either poor basic penetration or poor trolling gun handling, I have little choice or 1 poor RNG roll will lead to 1 bad game and potentially setting back half a dozen earlier games of hard work and intense pressure.

 

It is worth noting Prem is not always better ammo of choice. When I encounter full Heat spammers it's funny to watch them bounce on my side tracks again and again doing zero damage. 



Private_Miros #10 Posted 07 May 2020 - 05:43 PM

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Yeah, HEAT is situational.

 

The "problem" with APCR is often the huge boost in shell velocity. If I spam gold, this is the reason more than penetration.



undutchable80 #11 Posted 07 May 2020 - 05:56 PM

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View PostLee3452, on 07 May 2020 - 04:49 PM, said:

The last battle I just played was a 60%er shooting my Conqueror with his KPZ 50t on full premium. 

 

60%er in a new tanks firing full premium? Most likely (3-)marking the tank. 



Balc0ra #12 Posted 07 May 2020 - 06:00 PM

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View PostLee3452, on 07 May 2020 - 04:49 PM, said:

I have nothing against premium ammo but it may go someway why to explain why there are such crushing defeats and the speed at which they happen.

 

I doubt a massive amount of such steamrolls are due to one team using more gold than the other. Tho I'm sure a handful of your crushing losses or wins are due to a few tanks using gold to clear their side faster vs armor to flank the rest of your team. As at that point, it doesn't matter what they use as they have more guns from more sides. But you can say the same on close losses too. As if you fired normal ammo and bounced. But you could have won if you fired gold etc. Or you lost because you or someone else fired gold. As in HEAT hitting a module vs armor, and the hit back killed him causing a loss.

 

View PostLee3452, on 07 May 2020 - 04:49 PM, said:

Whilst I can't say for certain that the rest of the enemy team has predominately fired premium ammo the outcome would suggest otherwise.

 

True, you can say for sure what others on both team used to make a solid comparison. But when I lose hard, like my last match. There are bigger factors when ammo I suspect more so than not. My last match was due to our EBR wanting to yolo arty and failing. Dying rather early. Leaving our team blind on most of the map. Their EBR was still active and died later. But not until he did keep us lit, and allowing parts of his team to stay hidden doing damage. It started a small domino effect fast.

 

 



Objec7 #13 Posted 07 May 2020 - 06:02 PM

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View PostLee3452, on 07 May 2020 - 04:49 PM, said:

Since coming back to the game and trying to improve my game play. I have been looking at my game play and what is also happening to my team once I am destroyed.  When being overwhelmed by the enemy, I wonder where my team has gone. Only to see that it has been wiped out. On examining the hit log I see more times than not. That most of the hits taken are from multiple tanks using premium ammo. Whilst I can't say for certain that the rest of the enemy team has predominately fired premium ammo the outcome would suggest otherwise. By the same example I can't say that my team was not using it either. In other matches when I have been hit more than once by the same player using premium ammo I check to see what sort of player I was up against. The many posts on the forums suggest it is other fellow noobs using it as the good players only use it as a last resort. However when I look these players up they generally have 54% or above win rates. More evident in the reward tanks where I seldom come across one not firing premium ammo. The last battle I just played was a 60%er shooting my Conqueror with his KPZ 50t on full premium. I had nowhere to hide my hull so it wasn't to overcome my turret. I have nothing against premium ammo but it may go someway why to explain why there are such crushing defeats and the speed at which they happen.

The majority of these experiences I am referring to are where the opposing sides are generally equal in dispositions and have not all gone to one side and crush the team by weight of numbers before rolling up the rest.

 

Every time I get lost 2-15 or something similar it's always because of my teams positioning. Everyone yoloes one flank and on top of that we still lose both flanks.



LethalWalou #14 Posted 07 May 2020 - 06:10 PM

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View PostSuNo_TeSLa, on 07 May 2020 - 04:11 PM, said:

 poor positioning, spotting and armor usage does.

 

While this part is true, gold ammo also has an impact. It excuses bad plays and bad positioning. You can get outplayed by positioning badly and then load gold and still do damage to the person outplaying you. I will always remember the time I outplayed a T-55A in my FV4202 on Paris by taking the high ground and perma tracking them, only for the T-55A to load HEAT so that my gun depression and pretty much impenetrable turret armor lost its advantage.



Desyatnik_Pansy #15 Posted 07 May 2020 - 06:12 PM

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View Postundutchable80, on 07 May 2020 - 05:56 PM, said:

60%er in a new tanks firing full premium? Most likely (3-)marking the tank. 

 

Tbh no sane individual is trying to 3 Mark the Kpz 50t. AFAIK After updating, the Marks for the tank were insanely high, something like 9k reqs for the 3rd mark.



totallynotqsr #16 Posted 07 May 2020 - 06:15 PM

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Surely you being a bad player has nothing to do with your team's ability to win, it's the other team shooting prem ammo for targets they already should have penned (your own words) 

TheJungleBeast #17 Posted 07 May 2020 - 06:36 PM

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View Posttotallynotqsr, on 07 May 2020 - 06:15 PM, said:

Surely you being a bad player has nothing to do with your team's ability to win, it's the other team shooting prem ammo for targets they already should have penned (your own words) 

This^

I check quite often after a lopsided game, whether it's a win or a loss, the win rates on each team, not all of them but 6-7 random ones on each side, and a lot of the time the winning team has quite alot more players with 50%plus win rate, while the losing team has mostly under 50% winrates.


Edited by TheJungleBeast, 07 May 2020 - 06:37 PM.


Ragoutrabbit #18 Posted 07 May 2020 - 06:38 PM

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Love the premium ammo doesn't make a difference excuse, it's hilarious.

Private_Miros #19 Posted 07 May 2020 - 06:38 PM

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View PostTheJungleBeast, on 07 May 2020 - 05:36 PM, said:

This^

I check quite often after a lopsided game, whether it's a win or a loss, the win rates on each team, not all of them but 6-7 random ones on each side, and a lot of the time the winning team has quite alot more players with 50%plus win rate, while the losing team has mostly uner 50% winrates.


I find that team unbalance is not really that much correlating with fast defeats. The maps are such that if you take a few locations, even an unicum platoon is quickly lost unless the team winning up to that moment makes huge mistakes.

 

View PostRagoutrabbit, on 07 May 2020 - 05:38 PM, said:

Love the premium ammo doesn't make a difference excuse, it's hilarious.

 

For snowballs, no.

 

Of course it makes a difference in situation.


Edited by Private_Miros, 07 May 2020 - 06:39 PM.


LethalWalou #20 Posted 07 May 2020 - 07:00 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 07 May 2020 - 05:38 PM, said:

For snowballs, no.

 

Of course it makes a difference in situation.

 

But snowballs are sometimes caused by situations affected by gold ammo. So I'd say gold ammo does have an impact on snowballs but not always of course, for example when LTs are the deciding factor.






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