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My expectation scale based on a player's wn8/win%

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DiSaBor #1 Posted 14 May 2020 - 11:59 AM

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I use XVM ingame.

According to my personal experience, here is my expectation scale from a player, knowing his winrate / wn8 color.

(this is my response to another thread but I do think it deverses some discussion, so here it is)

 

<= 45%  : Bot / new player

 

46%-48%  : Bad player

  As enemy : easy farm

  As teamate : never trust

 

49%-51% : Average. Knows the basics

  As enemy : some attention is necessary. Often expect him to stay in the same spot or follow the meta flow.

  As teamate : should help him when he needs. Should not expect something from him when planning my move.

 

52%-55%  : Has map awareness

  As enemy : Attention must be paid. Expect him to relocate if disappeared for a while. Put myself into his position to try to figure out what he would do. Avoid 1v1 or expect heavy return damage.

  As teamate : Trustworthy. Should help him. May expect help from him.

 

56%-59% : Between green and purple

 

60%+ : Unicum

  As enemy : Extreme attention. Expect him to already expected my plan. Avoid 1v1 unless absolute necessity, or expect garage.

  As teamate : Learn from him. Help him. Expect him to use me as bait / meat shield.

 

-- (white) : Anonymiser

  As enemy : Unicum by default, until seeing what he does.

  As teamate : Bad player by default, until seeing what he does.

 

What is your expectation ?


Edited by DiSaBor, 14 May 2020 - 12:02 PM.


shishx_the_trash_can #2 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:05 PM

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My expectation when I touch water is... it's still wet.

 

To get back to the thread. Yes unicums bad, tomatos good!


Edited by shishx_the_trash_can, 14 May 2020 - 12:09 PM.


antwerp_fighter #3 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:10 PM

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Luckily, I play vanilla, dont have to think too much about WR

Venom7000 #4 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:15 PM

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Win% is somewhat irrelevant. Why?

Because it only tells you how many times the won a match.

 

And unless we have 1v1 matches. Its not exactly showing his skill.

 

I know people who have 52% win rate but are dumber than bots and have sub 3000 pl rating.

 

If you have luck, MM places you on the roflstomp team. You will have higher win%, even though you sat in base with zero dmg.

 

Even a unicum can lose, because he is fighting 1v12 and his team are donkeys.

 

Pl rating is where its at



evilchaosmonkey #5 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:18 PM

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It looks right to me.

 

Only change I'd make is the blue players.... something to do with excess e-preen and rages in chat.

A little like really attractive people don't feel the need to bang on about it, but slightly uglier ones often feel the need to go on and on and on about their looks and image to the point you just want to strangle them.

 

Fortunately I know my lowly place in game and in the beauty stakes.

 

Spoiler

 



mpf1959 #6 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:18 PM

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View PostDiSaBor, on 14 May 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:

What is your expectation ?

 

Nothing, and I am never disappointed! :girl:



DiSaBor #7 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:19 PM

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View PostVenom7000, on 14 May 2020 - 12:15 PM, said:

 

And unless we have 1v1 matches. Its not exactly showing his skill.

Win a 1v1 is some skill

Having map awareness and help team win is another.

British LT cannot win any 1v1. But good players can always cast 60% winrate with them.

 

MM is statistically fair, in the lagest scale. But the feeling (include my own) is bad MM are more often than not.



CmdRatScabies #8 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:21 PM

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*
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What I learnt early on:

60%+ : Unicum

      As teamate : Extreme attention.  Expect him to use his mobility to run off and leave me to die alone.  Always run before he does.



DiSaBor #9 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:23 PM

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View Postshishx_the_trash_can, on 14 May 2020 - 12:05 PM, said:

To get back to the thread. Yes unicums bad, tomatos good!

Well, nothing personal.

I used to trust unicums at all costs, until once, a unicum told me "it is safe to go", but actually I was spotting with a garage return ticket, while he farmed damage in a alreardy won game.

 

To put thing simple, enemy or teamate, always expect an unicum to out-play you


Edited by DiSaBor, 14 May 2020 - 12:25 PM.


Private_Miros #10 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:26 PM

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View PostCmdRatScabies, on 14 May 2020 - 11:21 AM, said:

What I learnt early on:

60%+ : Unicum

      As teamate : Extreme attention.  Expect him to use his mobility to run off and leave me to die alone.  Always run before he does.

 

Have you considered that dying alone means you made a mistake he didn't?



CmdRatScabies #11 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:30 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 14 May 2020 - 12:26 PM, said:

 

Have you considered that dying alone means you made a mistake he didn't?

Exactly - so always keep an eye on him and when his tracks turn ..... run before he abandons you.  :)



DiSaBor #12 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:32 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 14 May 2020 - 12:26 PM, said:

 

Have you considered that dying alone means you made a mistake he didn't?

Hell no.

It was Proko. Enemy JPE100 was one of the last enemies alive.

I was in the bushline, while he (unicum) was in a perpendicular position, after he won hill.

I cannot remember which tank I had, but definitly not a tank for spot (maybe a Pershing ? IDK)

He told me to approach from outside the bushline (lower ground in center part) and it was totally safe. Meanwhile he was waiting.

Ofc JP100 found me and killed me one shot, giving him the side for easy shots.

-------------------------

Today I would say, JPZ was not sure to spot me, but if he does spot me and fires, he was going to be spotted most likely, either by me or by the unicum.

It would be a good call if it was for the win. But it was not. The game was already won, only everyone wanted to farm a little bit more.

His call definitly gave him free farm, not me.


Edited by DiSaBor, 14 May 2020 - 12:39 PM.


Venom7000 #13 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:41 PM

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View PostDiSaBor, on 14 May 2020 - 12:19 PM, said:

Win a 1v1 is some skill

Having map awareness and help team win is another.

British LT cannot win any 1v1. But good players can always cast 60% winrate with them.

 

MM is statistically fair, in the lagest scale. But the feeling (include my own) is bad MM are more often than not.

1v1 is skill. That was my point.

But if MM throws you in a very bad mm (not talking about -2+2). Just that your best teammate is say 46% win rater.

 

Not even a unicum can save that match. (The mm has been especially roflstomp-y. Ever since RONA and weekend players increased, and old players from 5 years have returned).

 

For example. I played a game yesterday in my t28 htc. 4000dmg 7 kills and 80 defence points. Still not enough. 

Why? Because the nest best player had 700dmg and 1 kill (half dead type 64).

 

We lost...so technically my win% went down. But my pl rating went up. Because I was the mvp of the match, even though I was on the loosing side.

 

Sure unicum has a bigger capacity to carry the game. But even they are not gods. Especially when arty exists to steal dmg that otherwise shouldn't be possible to do to the now solo player trying to carry.

 

Look at SirFoch, Skill4ltu, Circon... even with gold, food (except Foch) and op tanks. They stil are known to lose 5 battles in a row. And I would dare call them "unreliable players". :)

 

To me win% makes sense in games that are 1v1. I am afraid of person with 70% win rate in Tekken or Mortal Kombat. Here its not direct indicator of their reliability. 

 

How many games I managed to win with zero dmg because my tank was too slow to go anywhere and my team was killing it. I dont deserve that win or that  win%

 

But difference between 2500pl rating player and one with over 4000 is that one knows not to shoot tracks with heat and armor angling exists.


Edited by Venom7000, 14 May 2020 - 12:44 PM.


shikaka9 #14 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:42 PM

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so there is no difference between 30% player and 45% player

:)

 

Personally I win like less than 2% of my games rest of 50% wins/carry my team for me :) does it count i'm still good? or just bad player with better than average WR?



Private_Miros #15 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:46 PM

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View PostVenom7000, on 14 May 2020 - 11:41 AM, said:

1v1 is skill. That was my point.

But if MM throws you in a very bad mm (not talking about -2+2). Just that your best teammate is say 46% win rater.

 

Not even a unicum can save that match. (The mm has been especially roflstomp-y. Ever since RONA and weekend players increased, and old players from 5 years have returned).

 

For example. I played a game yesterday in my t28 htc. 4000dmg 7 kills and 80 defence points. Still not enough. 

Why? Because the nest best player had 700dmg and 1 kill (half dead type 64).

 

We lost...so technically my win% went down. But my pl rating went up. Because I was the mvp of the match, even though I was on the loosing side.

 

Sure unicum has a bigger capacity to carry the game. But even they are not gods. Especially when arty exists to steal dmg that otherwise shouldn't be possible to do to the now solo player trying to carry.

 

Look at SirFoch, Skill4ltu, Circon... even with gold, food (except Foch) and op tanks. They stil are known to lose 5 battles in a row. And I would dare call them "unreliable players". :)

 

1vs1 is a skill. In a 1vs1.

 

Skill in randoms is adapting to what goes on around you and forcing as best as possible for the enemy to only engage you on your terms (basically avoid a 1vs1 on equal terms). That means that good players consistently do better than you. They still have losses, but do better there as well. And early damage and good decisions prevent losses that a worse player would have had. And those are the skills that matter, since they make your teams win more than average.

 

Short term battle results mean little, it's the consistency over battles that shows skill. And that consistency means they generally can be relied on in a battle, though mistakes and bad decisions are human and bad luck in an individual battle is perfectly possible. They just make less mistakes and bad decisions than others.


Edited by Private_Miros, 14 May 2020 - 12:48 PM.


Venom7000 #16 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:46 PM

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View Postshikaka9, on 14 May 2020 - 12:42 PM, said:

so there is no difference between 30% player and 45% player

:)

 

Personally I win like less than 2% of my games rest of 50% wins/carry my team for me :) does it count i'm still good? or just bad player with better than average WR?

my point exactly.  Win% means very little. Pl rating tells us more

I saw people with 20k games, 2500pl rating and 50 win rate. They are literally to dumb to drive let alone play



Black_Rojer #17 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:48 PM

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View PostDiSaBor, on 14 May 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:

 

60%+ : Unicum

  As enemy : Extreme attention. Expect him to already expected my plan. Avoid 1v1 unless absolute necessity, or expect garage.

  As teamate : Learn from him. Help him. Expect him to use me as bait / meat shield.

 

 

This is really funny "unicum", I have seen a lot of "unicum" players, who camp all the time near the base, did nothing and at the ans battle lost. is it skill?



Venom7000 #18 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:48 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 14 May 2020 - 12:46 PM, said:

 

1vs1 is a skill. In a 1vs1.

 

Skill in randoms is adapting to what goes on around you and forcing as best as possible for the enemy to only engage you on your terms (basically avoid a 1vs1 on equal terms). That means that good players consistently do better than you. They still have losses, but do better there as well. And early damage and good decisions prevent losses that a worse player would have had.

 

Short term battle results mean little, it's the consistency over battles that shows skill. And that consistency means they generally can be relied on in a battle, though mistakes and bad decisions are human and bad luck in an individual battle is perfectly possible. They just make less mistakes and bad decisions than others.

Exactly no one is arguing about this. I agree.

Adapting is the key. But the harsh reality of win% is that it doesn't care that you saw the minimap and returned to defend base or adapted to the changing situation. It cares about whether you won (plus %) or loss (minus%).

 

Whether a player adapted and made best of the bad situation is shown directly in their player rating.



Private_Miros #19 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:54 PM

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View PostVenom7000, on 14 May 2020 - 11:48 AM, said:

Exactly no one is arguing about this. I agree.

Adapting is the key. But the harsh reality of win% is that it doesn't care that you saw the minimap and returned to defend base or adapted to the changing situation. It cares about whether you won (plus %) or loss (minus%).

 

Whether a player adapted and made best of the bad situation is shown directly in their player rating.

 

Somewhat true.

 

But high(ish) PR and low(ish) WR means the player is bad at adapting early battle, and only good at seeking a defensive position when it hits the fan.

 

High(ish) WR for PR means more skilled in early damage and allowing early damage to team mates.

 

Hence, higher (solo) WR over a statistically significantly number of battles with consistent performance is always a better player.



roboslash #20 Posted 14 May 2020 - 12:54 PM

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I simply do not use XVM and make judgements from the displayed stats, as people improve/become worse at the game. Overall stats do not always reflect a current player's ability to play.

 

I simply treat every enemy as a threat, and don't rely on any ally, though that judgement changes throughout the battle, according to what I observe.







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