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About mechanics, matchmaking, 5 minutes games and the road of making money


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ArramisRo #1 Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:16 PM

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Tier 9-10 match, after personal reserves active.

This are some of my conclusions after 2800 battles(randomm, platoon) and at least 200 clan battles, from the last big patch. I am an average player with overall 50% winrate and aprox 1300 WN8 in 22k battles(no reroll, no second account)

1. First picture is in fact the second shot on the same vehicle. from a 152mm gun with AP shell from 200m (aprox 256mm penetration).

2. Second picture (the first shot on the same vehicle, with 152mm gun with HE shell) aprox same distance.

This is one example of the many examples i studied in the 2800 battles(51,78 winrate) of a rigged "rng"  server-side game. This is not "rng" when this ocurs CONSISTENTLY only in 5 minutes losing games. In games in wich everything u do, (use gold, aim fully, wait for the dot/arrow to be green) u can not do more than 1000-2000 dmg. And half of your team misses (rng based) as you. This is called constants in MATH, a verry beautifull and exact SCIENCE, that tells losing team to lose. Is nothing about randommness. I will not touch about matchmaking becouse it was way worse in the past.

Rigged RNG/ matchmaking - changes a little after each minor patch being on the vast majority of occasions worse than it was before.

-----

Other example is about how my winrate/performance depends(allmost 90% of the time) on the tank that i play, not becouse the class, not becouse i do not know how to play the tank just becouse in the first 10 or 20 battles the winrate is under 50%. To be more specific, if in the first couple of battles you have the "luck" of losing more than winning than in the future "Rigged RNG" occurs, and everything u do will be "rigged" so your winrate stayis the same. for example if you have 48 % winrate with a tank with 50 battles , your winrate/performance in the rigged games will never be over 50%. I have examples with my STB (a verry beautifull and powerfull tank), Lorraine 40t, IS-7, T62-A, etc.

------

On other hand (taking in consideration my winrate) the 5 minutes games that i win are still rigged(every snapshot works, shots on me bounce, i do not catch fire, i rarely am tracked and die, etc)

Now,on this last patch, the 5 minutes games (70%) are way more freqent the the "try-hard and get reward" games.

------

Cheats also are verry present in the game, probably some payed and accepted, becouse for some players RNG does not apply, every shot hits weakspot, 2 consecutive shots from 300-400 meters, hit allmost the same spot on the weakspot, some hit over the other side of the map on weakspot without being spotted etc. (this ocurs mostly in clan battles, from players with worse stats than mine). Complaining to Wargaming is useless their answer souds like " is well known that weak spot for that tank", with no logic to your complain, becouse complain was not about the weakspot, it was about hitting it consistently from the other side of the map, when at least 1 side is moving (me the hitted side). And others.

------

If you want a fair/balanced game play anything else. The only purpose of this company over the years has become making money, 

 

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shikaka9 #2 Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:31 PM

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why should we want fair/balanced game??? it aint good for the stats (player's and WG's)

 

and

 

why suffer loss for 5 minutes? it should be like this: entered battle, bad MM, 2 minutes, garage, next


Edited by shikaka9, 15 May 2020 - 12:31 PM.


WarlockOPain #3 Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:33 PM

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RNG ended year 2013. That's what came next is not RNG, you know what it is, I don't have to say that.

Private_Miros #4 Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:36 PM

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View PostArramisRo, on 15 May 2020 - 11:16 AM, said:

Tier 9-10 match, after personal reserves active.

This are some of my conclusions after 2800 battles(randomm, platoon) and at least 200 clan battles, from the last big patch. I am an average player with overall 50% winrate and aprox 1300 WN8 in 22k battles(no reroll, no second account)

1. First picture is in fact the second shot on the same vehicle. from a 152mm gun with AP shell from 200m (aprox 256mm penetration).

2. Second picture (the first shot on the same vehicle, with 152mm gun with HE shell) aprox same distance.

This is one example of the many examples i studied in the 2800 battles(51,78 winrate) of a rigged "rng"  server-side game. This is not "rng" when this ocurs CONSISTENTLY only in 5 minutes losing games. In games in wich everything u do, (use gold, aim fully, wait for the dot/arrow to be green) u can not do more than 1000-2000 dmg. And half of your team misses (rng based) as you. This is called constants in MATH, a verry beautifull and exact SCIENCE, that tells losing team to lose. Is nothing about randommness. I will not touch about matchmaking becouse it was way worse in the past.

Rigged RNG/ matchmaking - changes a little after each minor patch being on the vast majority of occasions worse than it was before.

-----

Other example is about how my winrate/performance depends(allmost 90% of the time) on the tank that i play, not becouse the class, not becouse i do not know how to play the tank just becouse in the first 10 or 20 battles the winrate is under 50%. To be more specific, if in the first couple of battles you have the "luck" of losing more than winning than in the future "Rigged RNG" occurs, and everything u do will be "rigged" so your winrate stayis the same. for example if you have 48 % winrate with a tank with 50 battles , your winrate/performance in the rigged games will never be over 50%. I have examples with my STB (a verry beautifull and powerfull tank), Lorraine 40t, IS-7, T62-A, etc.

------

On other hand (taking in consideration my winrate) the 5 minutes games that i win are still rigged(every snapshot works, shots on me bounce, i do not catch fire, i rarely am tracked and die, etc)

Now,on this last patch, the 5 minutes games (70%) are way more freqent the the "try-hard and get reward" games.

------

Cheats also are verry present in the game, probably some payed and accepted, becouse for some players RNG does not apply, every shot hits weakspot, 2 consecutive shots from 300-400 meters, hit allmost the same spot on the weakspot, some hit over the other side of the map on weakspot without being spotted etc. (this ocurs mostly in clan battles, from players with worse stats than mine). Complaining to Wargaming is useless their answer souds like " is well known that weak spot for that tank", with no logic to your complain, becouse complain was not about the weakspot, it was about hitting it consistently from the other side of the map, when at least 1 side is moving (me the hitted side). And others.

------

If you want a fair/balanced game play anything else. The only purpose of this company over the years has become making money, 

 

 

Those two screenshots are not related to RNG. In the first one you hit the visor module and not the HP hitbox. In the second you hit and destroyed/damaged the gun barrel (the explosion did not reach the tank itself). The aiming seems almost perfect considering 0.37/0.38 at 100m, and these were 200 meters out.

 

You always perform less well when losing than winning globally. That makes sense. Though you can still pull your weight. You have the same RNG as in any other battle. Sometimes you have good rolls, sometimes you have bad rolls. For comparion, looking at my losses in under 5 minutes in my last 829 recorded battles (a grand total of 39), I see an average WN8 of 1083, which is simply to be expected since you have less time and opportunity to do damage. Yet good performance is still possible, as 7 of those are over 2k WN8.

 

If you look at all under 5 minute battles, I have 124. That makes 15%, not 70%.

 

RNG cannot be circumvented, it is server side. If they snap shot you and hit you, they are lucky, though pre-aiming on a predictable enemy helps that luck obviously. And, well, you don't hit shots you don't take. And you do only notice the shots that actually hit you.

 

-----------

 

As posted in the MM thread, based on my last 829, there isn't really correlation between game duration and performance:

 

  • looking at "the good games" (2500 WN8 and plus): 7 minutes average, scores from 15-0 to 3-15, with an average of 4.5 score difference between the teams in my favour.
  • that's actually quite close to the general average of 6 minutes 54 seconds and 2.3 score difference between the teams in my favour.
  • if we only look at those games where I completely potatoed and didn't end up top three or got fire for effect (816 WN8 on average in these): 7 minutes average as well, and 0.6 score difference between the teams in my favour.

 

So, both the great and the absolute shite games I have are 7 minutes long. The average is slightly lower. Historical threads have shown high 6 minutes has been the average duration for as long as I find back in WoT.

 

 


Edited by Private_Miros, 15 May 2020 - 12:37 PM.


Slyspy #5 Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:37 PM

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The usual sort of thing to expect in such a post - starting with the conclusion, then backing it up with a load of guesswork, approximations and fundamental misunderstandings of both game mechanics and mathematics. 

jabster #6 Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:40 PM

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Now that's a lot of tinfoil to use all in one post.

General_Jack_D_Ripper #7 Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:42 PM

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I am quite annoyed by this "5 minutes battles" rambling everywhere.

The forum is full of it, the streamer and youtuber talk about it.

 

But nothing changed.

Back with my old account 5 years ago there was a site called vbaddict.

It took statistics out of your results and uploaded it.

My average battle time (60,something winrate with that account) was 4 minutes something.

And I do distinctively remember people complaining about "5 minutes games" back then.

 

(here is an example from 2015: "Why this poll? Recently I was thinking - what makes the game appealing to play? Personally I think that the biggest threat to me having fun with the game is unbalanced, stomp-like battles where one team wins easily." http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/526393-should-match-making-be-changed-so-that-teams-are-more-balanced-fewer-edited-like-games-unicum-players-matched-with-unicum-players-etc/ ;)

 

I had a gap of 5 years and nothing changed. The topics are still the same.

5 minutes matches

Corridor maps

RNG

MM

And some poor souls complaining about cheating


Edited by General_Jack_D_Ripper, 15 May 2020 - 12:46 PM.


Miepie #8 Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:44 PM

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View PostWarlockOPain, on 15 May 2020 - 12:33 PM, said:

 you know what it is, I don't have to say that.

...Black and yellow? :ohmy:

 



jabster #9 Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:45 PM

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View PostSlyspy, on 15 May 2020 - 11:37 AM, said:

The usual sort of thing to expect in such a post - starting with the conclusion, then backing it up with a load of guesswork, approximations and fundamental misunderstandings of both game mechanics and mathematics. 

But, but they're doing science.



psychofiction #10 Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:59 PM

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View Postjabster, on 15 May 2020 - 12:40 PM, said:

Now that's a lot of tinfoil to use all in one post.

[removed]

 

IMO this argument goes 2 ways;

1: people who are discontent going to argue with this topic

2: people who are content with this going to argue against this topic

 

Conclusion:

A lot of strawmen arguments [removed]. So its not worth it to check out or write on the forums anyway since people like to say: not enough tinfoil or something like that, when people are expressing their discontent. That is so useful!


Edited by Homer_J, 15 May 2020 - 01:31 PM.
Rule 2


jabster #11 Posted 15 May 2020 - 01:04 PM

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View Postpsychofiction, on 15 May 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:

[removed]

 

IMO this argument goes 2 ways;

1: people who are discontent going to argue with this topic

2: people who are content with this going to argue against this topic

 

Conclusion:

A lot of strawmen arguments[removed]

 

An an alt. account appears, there's a surprise. 

 

Oh and you probably want to look up the meaning of strawman before trying to use the big words. 



Private_Miros #12 Posted 15 May 2020 - 01:14 PM

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View Postpsychofiction, on 15 May 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:

[removed]

 

IMO this argument goes 2 ways;

1: people who are discontent going to argue with this topic

2: people who are content with this going to argue against this topic

 

Conclusion:

A lot of strawmen arguments[removed]. So its not worth it to check out or write on the forums anyway since people like to say: not enough tinfoil or something like that, when people are expressing their discontent. That is so useful!

 

There's a difference between expressing discontent, which is valid, and jumping to the most illogical, easily disproven, conspiracy-driven conclusions possible.

 

I can understand frustration and the bias it causes in perception (such as 70% of my battles are under 5 minutes - possible when looking at survival time, this is true for most though, but who is to blame there?).

 

So far I've not seen a single theory that stands up to any scrutiny. If something is rigged it should apply to all; and if not to all, then it should be easily visible and repeatable to find the triggers of said rigging. But so far we've only seen feels. So in that context, yeah, tinfoil is a quite exhaustive summary.



Balc0ra #13 Posted 15 May 2020 - 01:19 PM

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View PostArramisRo, on 15 May 2020 - 12:16 PM, said:

Rigged RNG/ matchmaking - changes a little after each minor patch being on the vast majority of occasions worse than it was before.

 

And yet... here you still are. If this was any other game were people did notice it. Game would not live to be 10 years old. As we have seen before. Destiny 2 lost a fair bit of his population when their XP rigging was proven, keyword there was proven. It took 4 hours after the patch went out until people did notice. As in all of the server. Not 1 per patch.

 

As there is a difference between rigging, and mechanics that has been around for 10 years that will not do damage when you hit like that. That has never changed from patch to patch. You hit modules, not armor. So your pen value makes little difference. HE splash is not that huge on your gun that it can damage armor that far away when you hit the tip of the gun. And AP would still pen that cupola even on a low RNG roll as it's around 88mm effective. But hit too high and there is no longer any armor, and your shots are absorbed.

 

View Postpsychofiction, on 15 May 2020 - 12:59 PM, said:

IMO this argument goes 2 ways;

1: people who are discontent going to argue with this topic

2: people who are content with this going to argue against this topic

 

There is a 3rd point. "People who understand this down to basic gameplay mechanics vs rigging and speaks to deaf ears". As most of the cheating and rigging topics are just that. People with 20K games that still don't know how HEAT works, or how HE works not hitting armor but modules. And when you have the first 2. It doesn't matter what anyone says.

 



ArramisRo #14 Posted 15 May 2020 - 01:23 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 15 May 2020 - 12:14 PM, said:

 

There's a difference between expressing discontent, which is valid, and jumping to the most illogical, easily disproven, conspiracy-driven conclusions possible.

 

I can understand frustration and the bias it causes in perception (such as 70% of my battles are under 5 minutes - possible when looking at survival time, this is true for most though, but who is to blame there?).

 

So far I've not seen a single theory that stands up to any scrutiny. If something is rigged it should apply to all; and if not to all, then it should be easily visible and repeatable to find the triggers of said rigging. But so far we've only seen feels. So in that context, yeah, tinfoil is a quite exhaustive summary.

Yes it applies to all, but many do not pay attention and do not filter information. If i had the "luxury" of accesing the server-side math  it will be no "feeling" conclusions and not "thinfoil". But becouse we are smart animals, we can conclude for example that milk is white and sweet when is fresh after using it (drinking, smelling etc) ... no math formula needed, just pure experience. So stop trolling if you do not understand argumentation based on "experience".

12:28 Added after 4 minute

View PostBalc0ra, on 15 May 2020 - 12:19 PM, said:

 

And yet... here you still are. If this was any other game were people did notice it. Game would not live to be 10 years old. As we have seen before. Destiny 2 lost a fair bit of his population when their XP rigging was proven, keyword there was proven. It took 4 hours after the patch went out until people did notice. As in all of the server. Not 1 per patch.

 

As there is a difference between rigging, and mechanics that has been around for 10 years that will not do damage when you hit like that. That has never changed from patch to patch. You hit modules, not armor. So your pen value makes little difference. HE splash is not that huge on your gun that it can damage armor that far away when you hit the tip of the gun. And AP would still pen that cupola even on a low RNG roll as it's around 88mm effective. But hit too high and there is no longer any armor, and your shots are absorbed.

 

 

There is a 3rd point. "People who understand this down to basic gameplay mechanics vs rigging and speaks to deaf ears". As most of the cheating and rigging topics are just that. People with 20K games that still don't know how HEAT works, or how HE works not hitting armor but modules. And when you have the first 2. It doesn't matter what anyone says.

 

Do you

View PostBalc0ra, on 15 May 2020 - 12:19 PM, said:

 

And yet... here you still are. If this was any other game were people did notice it. Game would not live to be 10 years old. As we have seen before. Destiny 2 lost a fair bit of his population when their XP rigging was proven, keyword there was proven. It took 4 hours after the patch went out until people did notice. As in all of the server. Not 1 per patch.

 

As there is a difference between rigging, and mechanics that has been around for 10 years that will not do damage when you hit like that. That has never changed from patch to patch. You hit modules, not armor. So your pen value makes little difference. HE splash is not that huge on your gun that it can damage armor that far away when you hit the tip of the gun. And AP would still pen that cupola even on a low RNG roll as it's around 88mm effective. But hit too high and there is no longer any armor, and your shots are absorbed.

 

 

There is a 3rd point. "People who understand this down to basic gameplay mechanics vs rigging and speaks to deaf ears". As most of the cheating and rigging topics are just that. People with 20K games that still don't know how HEAT works, or how HE works not hitting armor but modules. And when you have the first 2. It doesn't matter what anyone says.

 

First of all the shot had richochet down, look closer (but that is not the point or the problem that it did not pen), the problem is that occurence of not penning or richochet are consistent in LOSING games, and PENNING in  winning games. Do you grasp the logic that i am tryiing to explain or just troll ?



Private_Miros #15 Posted 15 May 2020 - 01:34 PM

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View PostArramisRo, on 15 May 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

Yes it applies to all, but many do not pay attention and do not filter information. If i had the "luxury" of accesing the server-side math  it will be no "feeling" conclusions and not "thinfoil". But becouse we are smart animals, we can conclude for example that milk is white and sweet when is fresh after using it (drinking, smelling etc) ... no math formula needed, just pure experience. So stop trolling if you do not understand argumentation based on "experience".

 

Well, that's the thing. It does not.

 

It doesn't apply to everyone. And for those that complain about it like you, any element they bring forward is either blatant mistunderstanding of game mechanics (your two screenshots and the reference to RNG), blatantly wrong (70% under 5 minute battle duration), or general frustration at hitting their skill ceiling (WG must rig me to stay 50% because in no way I am just an average player!).



Homer_J #16 Posted 15 May 2020 - 01:35 PM

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Can I just remind people to read the forum rules before posting.  I have had to remove some blatant rule breaking content.

 

http://forum.worldof...24-forum-rules/



Ricox #17 Posted 15 May 2020 - 01:40 PM

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View PostSlyspy, on 15 May 2020 - 11:37 AM, said:

The usual sort of thing to expect in such a post - starting with the conclusion, then backing it up with a load of guesswork, approximations and fundamental misunderstandings of both game mechanics and mathematics. 

 

Think of it this way - it's better for people with this type of thinking to dedicate it to meaningless conspiracy theories on World of Tanks rather than burning 5G network towers during a global pandemic.



ArramisRo #18 Posted 15 May 2020 - 02:24 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 15 May 2020 - 12:34 PM, said:

 

Well, that's the thing. It does not.

 

It doesn't apply to everyone. And for those that complain about it like you, any element they bring forward is either blatant mistunderstanding of game mechanics (your two screenshots and the reference to RNG), blatantly wrong (70% under 5 minute battle duration), or general frustration at hitting their skill ceiling (WG must rig me to stay 50% because in no way I am just an average player!).

Troll, troll only troll, i did not said anything about me want to be rigged or i that i do not understand game mechanics and ai said "THIS IS ONE EXAMPLE", meaning i have more so i do not draw conclusion based on one example. I reiterate the idea that OCCURANCE of things like pictures is far grater in the losing games in the losing team then in the winning games (even for me). And becouse I am an average player .. i must feel the averageness of my actions in every game (in winning and in losing games). I am not complaining about winning or losing, try to focus on the subject and stop bot trolling.


Edited by ArramisRo, 15 May 2020 - 02:31 PM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #19 Posted 15 May 2020 - 02:39 PM

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View PostArramisRo, on 15 May 2020 - 02:24 PM, said:

I reiterate the idea that OCCURANCE of things like pictures is far grater in the losing games in the losing team then in the winning games (even for me). 

 

I'm quite sure this is true and these situations cause you to lose more games. BECAUSE YOU MISSED. If you had actually hit those shots instead of missing then that tank would be two hits more dead than it was and your team would be more likely to have won.

 

The fundamental mistake you are making is concluding that the game was predefined for you to lose and that the misses you get playing it are the proof of that rigging instead of the more obvious conclusion that because you missed shots that resulted in the game being lost. 



Private_Miros #20 Posted 15 May 2020 - 02:45 PM

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View PostArramisRo, on 15 May 2020 - 01:24 PM, said:

Troll, troll only troll, i did not said anything about me want to be rigged or i that i do not understand game mechanics and ai said "THIS IS ONE EXAMPLE", meaning i have more so i do not draw conclusion based on one example. I reiterate the idea that OCCURANCE of things like pictures is far grater in the losing games in the losing team then in the winning games (even for me). And becouse I am an average player .. i must feel the averageness of my actions in every game (in winning and in losing games). I am not complaining about winning or losing, try to focus on the subject and stop bot trolling.

 

But as explained twice, it's not an example of RNG at all! It's two screenshots of you hitting modules. There is no RNG involved there.

 

 

Presuming you aren't trolling and purposefully trying to seem stupid, let me point out the obvious:

 

No, an average player still has good and bad games. You don't need to feel averageness in all your actions in every game. Being an average player means that globally speaking, with all your good and bad games together, and with all your bad and good RNG together, you have an average performance. Meanwhile a bad player gets less out of the same circumstances and luck, and a good player more.

 

In the same way, a good player still has quite a few bad games, I showed you in the data provided earlier. Those games look just the same as the ones where I do really well. The only difference is those that I did badly I made mistakes and died, often early. While those that were good, I didn't make as many mistakes and generally didn't die until the end.






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