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False equivalences of WoT


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ZlatanArKung #1 Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:05 PM

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There are some things out there in the WoT community that gets passed on by players to players which are false.

 

1: Aiming and good reflexes are important skills.

No, they are not. They are marginal skills and nowhere near crucial for a successful WOT player  (60%+ WR).

A huge emphasis is often put on this when it comes to advice and what is important in WoT, which is sad, since it isn't true. 

This game is about primarily about positioning and repositioning. If you are good at positioning and repositioning, all your shots will be very easy to connect with, since you will have time to aim and large targets to shoot at. If your positioning is bad, then you will only have hard shots to make, trying to snipe pixels who move. And here it is more down to rng then skill if you hit anyway.

 

2: Damage is the all mighty statistic that tells how good you did in a battle. 

Also false, damage is only an indicator of how well you did, and can often be misleading. 

For example: Doing 1-2k dmg on beach on Overlord or 1-2 line on Cliff in a T6 or T7 tank is not an indicator that you did your part or where important to your team. Damage at those areas, and other similar ones, are not worth much at all when it comes to winning. Simply, some damage is waaaay more equal then other damage.

A player who did 500 dmg at an important stage of the game is way more important then some guy who did 2k damage in an unimportant stage or area.

 

3: Certain spots are OP and you must know them to be good.

No. Knowing spots are not important, except the red bush on Redshire when you spawn south. It is way more important to understand areas and how control over areas effect other areas of the map. And then, control over which areas are needed before a push can be made.

If spot A is good, then spot B in same neighbourhood is also good. 

 

4: Knowing weakspots are important.

Another hugely overrated skill to have, even more so since WG introduced the new reticule which take effective armour into account.

This skill is of marginal benefit at the best.

If you have to rely on this and aiming to do damage, the problem of not doing damage is not bad aiming or not knowing weakspots,  it is taking disadvantageous fights from the beginning.

 

5: Unicums only sit on the red line and spam premium ammo in OP tanks with bond equipments and 5+ skilled crews.

Completely true.



DaniulSims #2 Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:10 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 18 May 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:

5: Unicums only sit on the red line and spam premium ammo in OP tanks with bond equipments and 5+ skilled crews.

Completely true.

 

Can confirm - I started slinging only Gold ammo and stay in base all game and I got from green to blue in no time!



Kalonianhydra #3 Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:21 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 18 May 2020 - 06:05 PM, said:

4: Knowing weakspots are important.

Another hugely overrated skill to have, even more so since WG introduced the new reticule which take effective armour into account.

This skill is of marginal benefit at the best.

If you have to rely on this and aiming to do damage, the problem of not doing damage is not bad aiming or not knowing weakspots,  it is taking disadvantageous fights from the beginning.

 

 

This should be something that needs to make a bigger difference, knowing your opponent and it's weak spots, but today, people only press the 2 key and spam on.



ZlatanArKung #4 Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:29 PM

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View PostKalonianhydra, on 18 May 2020 - 07:21 PM, said:

This should be something that needs to make a bigger difference, knowing your opponent and it's weak spots, but today, people only press the 2 key and spam on.

No.

 

Thinking that pressing 2 makes armour useless is another false equivalence.

 

In almost all cases where you get penned by premium ammo, standard ammo from same take would suffice. Same for when you bounce, in most cases shooting premium ammo would not magically have made that shot pen.

 

But the saddest part is that your idea is used as an excuse for bad positioning and bad usage of the armour given.



GodTank2 #5 Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:35 PM

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1. They are important skills. You cant always outposition enemies and most times you have to play 1v1. In those scenarios being able to hit all shots is vital as missing or bouncing 1 shell in a 1v1 can lead to death.

 

2. There is no "important damage" and "non important damage" All damage contributes to victories. 2K dmg on enemy tanks is always more valuable than doing 500 dmg. Just Remember that for that 500 damage to be "Important" someone else must have done the rest 1.5k " Unimportant damage ".

When i see someone with 4k+ dpg in tier 10s i know that he is a good player no matter where the damage is dealt.



Kalonianhydra #6 Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:39 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 18 May 2020 - 06:29 PM, said:

No.

 

Thinking that pressing 2 makes armour useless is another false equivalence.

 

In almost all cases where you get penned by premium ammo, standard ammo from same take would suffice. Same for when you bounce, in most cases shooting premium ammo would not magically have made that shot pen.

 

But the saddest part is that your idea is used as an excuse for bad positioning and bad usage of the armour given.

And you are totally wrong, or people wouldn't shoot gold.
Having knowledge should give an advantage.

And armor isn't useless, but pressing 2 will make it less effective, specially with all that HEAT spam that normalizes the angles.



ZlatanArKung #7 Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:55 PM

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View PostKalonianhydra, on 18 May 2020 - 07:39 PM, said:

And you are totally wrong, or people wouldn't shoot gold.
Having knowledge should give an advantage.

And armor isn't useless, but pressing 2 will make it less effective, specially with all that HEAT spam that normalizes the angles.

People shoot gold because they believe it makes them a better player or helps them do more damage, in general. Rarely because the situation at hand requires it.

 

Your 2nd paragraph makes no sense.

A normal to a surface is a line that is perpendicular to that surface at all points. Normalisation means that you are making an impact angle get closer to that normal.

HEAT ammo have 0 degrees of normalisation, APCR have 2, AP have 5.

Example: You have an impact angle of a shell at 45 degrees (this is 45 degrees from the normal). For the 3 different shells, you would have the following impact angle.

AP: 40 degrees.

APCR:  43 degrees.

HEAT: 45 degrees.

With help of trigonometry we get the effective armour. A is nominal armour  (thickness), the effective armour (E) and impact angle (X), effectivr armour can be calculated as: 

E = A / cos(x).

With some knowledge of cos values and how they behave, we can see that AP will meet the lowest amount of effective armour while HEAT will have to penetrate the highest amount of effective armour. Since Cosine goes from 1 to 0 as angle goes from 0 to 90 degrees.

18:57 Added after 2 minute

View PostGodTank2, on 18 May 2020 - 07:35 PM, said:

1. They are important skills. You cant always outposition enemies and most times you have to play 1v1. In those scenarios being able to hit all shots is vital as missing or bouncing 1 shell in a 1v1 can lead to death.

 

2. There is no "important damage" and "non important damage" All damage contributes to victories. 2K dmg on enemy tanks is always more valuable than doing 500 dmg. Just Remember that for that 500 damage to be "Important" someone else must have done the rest 1.5k " Unimportant damage ".

When i see someone with 4k+ dpg in tier 10s i know that he is a good player no matter where the damage is dealt.

Well, yes you can always out position an enemy tank.

 

Yes, thee is important an unimportant damage. And very much so.

2k damage made when game is 14-0 have 0 value. While 500 dmg made when game is 5-5 have a huge value.

 

When you see someone with 4k dmg in T10 you also know he made some important damage. And some clean up damage.


Edited by ZlatanArKung, 18 May 2020 - 07:58 PM.


lbot #8 Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:05 PM

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The basic of this game: "the point you shoot at is not always the point you hit (and you have no idea of math beyond that except the dispersion picture provided by the developers)" is broken.

Edited by lbot, 18 May 2020 - 08:07 PM.


UrQuan #9 Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:10 PM

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View PostKalonianhydra, on 18 May 2020 - 07:39 PM, said:

And you are totally wrong, or people wouldn't shoot gold.
Having knowledge should give an advantage.

And armor isn't useless, but pressing 2 will make it less effective, specially with all that HEAT spam that normalizes the angles.

 

I'm with Zlatan on that tho. I drive armored tanks & often when people can't pen me with standard, they load prem, without even thinking why they can't pen me, resulting that their prem shells do nothing either. 

When driving armored vehicles, I assume people are going to shoot me with prem, so not much changes when they actually do. And when they don't, it's stompin' time.

Most armored tanks are played rather meh tho, plenty don't even angle or worse; over-extend too much, turning them into XP pinatas.

Check who pens me here & his position. It's not the prem slinging tanks with higher pen, but the med shooting my Maus with standard ammo.

 

My damage is pretty low for my WR, always has been, I often struggle to do my own HP in damage, even in my favorite tank, the KV-4. But I compensate that with some rather aggressive play, dealing most of my damage in the early game, often taking key positions / lanes for the team, making it easier for them to play (and harder for the red team)

 

Damage is important to win, but the best damage can only be gotten through the best positions, spots that grant you an advantage against the enemies you fight. A good spot means you can take on superior numbers/tiers in relative safety, tilting the balance of victory towards your team.

 

Taking that crucial spot: Removing me will cost some serious HP; Will they commit?

 


Edited by UrQuan, 18 May 2020 - 08:59 PM.


24doom24 #10 Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:13 PM

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The biggest one of all : WoT is a team game. 

 

It's 1v29, doing 4k damage in a useless position on a losing game is better than doing 2k and still losing because you tried to fight frontline. In a lot of games it's usually the team as a whole that loses the game since they have no semblance of what "falling back" is so they all just melt in 2 minutes. 

 

If I see the game is lost/losing it is in my best interest to retreat and farm damage instead of dying with the rest of the flank.



Kalonianhydra #11 Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:16 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 18 May 2020 - 06:55 PM, said:

People shoot gold because they believe it makes them a better player or helps them do more damage, in general. Rarely because the situation at hand requires it.

 

Your 2nd paragraph makes no sense.

A normal to a surface is a line that is perpendicular to that surface at all points. Normalisation means that you are making an impact angle get closer to that normal.

HEAT ammo have 0 degrees of normalisation, APCR have 2, AP have 5.

Example: You have an impact angle of a shell at 45 degrees (this is 45 degrees from the normal). For the 3 different shells, you would have the following impact angle.

AP: 40 degrees.

APCR:  43 degrees.

HEAT: 45 degrees.

With help of trigonometry we get the effective armour. A is nominal armour  (thickness), the effective armour (E) and impact angle (X), effectivr armour can be calculated as: 

E = A / cos(x).

With some knowledge of cos values and how they behave, we can see that AP will meet the lowest amount of effective armour while HEAT will have to penetrate the highest amount of effective armour. Since Cosine goes from 1 to 0 as angle goes from 0 to 90 degrees.

18:57 Added after 2 minute

Well, yes you can always out position an enemy tank.

 

Yes, thee is important an unimportant damage. And very much so.

2k damage made when game is 14-0 have 0 value. While 500 dmg made when game is 5-5 have a huge value.

 

When you see someone with 4k dmg in T10 you also know he made some important damage. And some clean up damage.

What I know is that normal ammo will bounce when the angle passes 70 degrees, but HEAT will pen up to 85.

But I only shoot regular, never gold, I ain't that guy. The gold noob


Edited by Kalonianhydra, 18 May 2020 - 08:17 PM.


ZlatanArKung #12 Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:23 PM

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View Post24doom24, on 18 May 2020 - 08:13 PM, said:

The biggest one of all : WoT is a team game. 

 

It's 1v29, doing 4k damage in a useless position on a losing game is better than doing 2k and still losing because you tried to fight frontline. In a lot of games it's usually the team as a whole that loses the game since they have no semblance of what "falling back" is so they all just melt in 2 minutes. 

 

If I see the game is lost/losing it is in my best interest to retreat and farm damage instead of dying with the rest of the flank.

It is a team game, and your WR is a good reflection on how good you are at working together with other players.

19:23 Added after 0 minute

View PostKalonianhydra, on 18 May 2020 - 08:16 PM, said:

What I know is that normal ammo will bounce when the angle passes 70 degrees, but HEAT will pen up to 85.

But I only shoot regular, never gold, I ain't that guy. The gold noob

HEAT will not pen up to 85 degrees, HEAT get a chance at penning up to 85 degrees.



UrQuan #13 Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:29 PM

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View PostKalonianhydra, on 18 May 2020 - 08:16 PM, said:

What I know is that normal ammo will bounce when the angle passes 70 degrees, but HEAT will pen up to 85.

 Mostly correct, but AP & APCR gets normalisation, while HEAT does not. Normalisation means the shell gets a bonus angle inward, so there's less armor to go through. HEAT doesn't have this, which can cause it to fail to pen (thick) angled armor, where AP & APCR would get through.

 

Also, AP & APCR get the double & triple overmatch bonus (shell caliber vs armor thickness). Double overmatch means shell caliber is more then twice the armor: shell gets a normalisation bonus, meaning it gets even easier to pen that (angled) armor with AP/APCR. At triple overmatch (shell caliber more then 3 times the armor): auto bounce is gone & will almost always pen (there's some fringe cases but they're rare)

Once again HEAT doesn't get this, which can cause it to fail spectacularly on angled armor, where AP/APCR would had no trouble with.

 

Last part: HEAT is really bad with spaced armor, while AP/APCR have less trouble with it (tracks!)

 

HEAT however is a great shell to shoot at those flat or near flat sides or on highly angled mediocre armor (the swedish TD's by example)

 

In short, its about knowing which shell to use when you got HEAT as option. When your option is AP vs APCR, the differences are just too minimal for not stocking up on the higher pen shell if you can afford it. On equal terms, AP has the better pen characteristics, but usually the higher pen for APCR counteracts that enough to nullify that APCR disadvantage to AP


Edited by UrQuan, 18 May 2020 - 08:41 PM.


Blubba #14 Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:32 PM

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Premium rounds 'normalize' tough armour in that it makes it not so tough armour. More like normal armour...

I don't think players shoot premium because they think it makes them a better player. I think that statement is a myth. They fire it because they think it will pen. I reckon it's more as Urquan stated, some players don't appreciate the reason why they didn't penetrate so fire premium not realising it's as futile as standard.

 

I'd suggest maybe map awareness is important?


Edited by Blubba, 18 May 2020 - 08:32 PM.


Kalonianhydra #15 Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:40 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 18 May 2020 - 07:23 PM, said:

It is a team game, and your WR is a good reflection on how good you are at working together with other players.

19:23 Added after 0 minute

HEAT will not pen up to 85 degrees, HEAT get a chance at penning up to 85 degrees.

read the words like the devil reads the bible then. You know what I mean, but you still have to misinterpret 



StronkiTonki #16 Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:44 PM

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In the end, there is not statistical way to show when a player made a crucial decision that drastically effected the battle outcome.

I absolutely agree that it can be possible that a player A who did 500 damage at a crucial moment can be more important than player B farming 2k damage at a less important spot. But there is simply no statistical way to tell it apart.

It is also possible that player A's damage would not have been as crucial if player B had not farmed 2k damage in the first place. It is all very situational.

 

In the end, even though some situations are more important to do damage, the main goal is still to eliminate the enemy team. So all contribution that helps towards achieving it helps. And damage is at least statistically measurable.

 

As for the rest, in general, all the things that are listed are going to be helpful. The more tools at your disposal, the better.

But the most important things as far as I believe are:

-Knowing tank capabilities, stats like a tank's speed, alpha, pen, armor layout, view range, but also it's weaknesses.

-Knowing the game mechanics, view range & camo for the most part

-Knowing the map meta, aka, being able to predict what kind of tanks go to what positions, and how battles usually progress throughout time

-Studying the map constantly, and reacting apropriately by falling back when needed, repositioning when needed in order to exploit a situation that will grant you free damage or positional superiority.



ZlatanArKung #17 Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:53 PM

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View PostBlubba, on 18 May 2020 - 08:32 PM, said:

Premium rounds 'normalize' tough armour in that it makes it not so tough armour. More like normal armour...

I don't think players shoot premium because they think it makes them a better player. I think that statement is a myth. They fire it because they think it will pen. I reckon it's more as Urquan stated, some players don't appreciate the reason why they didn't penetrate so fire premium not realising it's as futile as standard.

 

I'd suggest maybe map awareness is important?

Indeed, probably bad wording.

 

Map awareness is important. It is your source of information. But then comes the hard part, what do you do with that information, how do you interpreter it and make a good decision based on the information you got and the I formation you didn't get.

20:00 Added after 7 minute

View PostKalonianhydra, on 18 May 2020 - 08:40 PM, said:

read the words like the devil reads the bible then. You know what I mean, but you still have to misinterpret 

It is hard to know what you mean when you post vaguely or clearly wrong.

Like "heat pens up to 85 degrees".

Your other post about normalisation was also wrong or misinformed, thus giving you the benefit of doubt seemed wrong, since you seemed to lack the knowledge about Penetration mechanics and the subtle differences there is.



azakow #18 Posted 18 May 2020 - 09:00 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 18 May 2020 - 07:05 PM, said:

 

2: Damage is the all mighty statistic that tells how good you did in a battle

Also false, damage is only an indicator of how well you did, and can often be misleading. 

For example: Doing 1-2k dmg on beach on Overlord or 1-2 line on Cliff in a T6 or T7 tank is not an indicator that you did your part or where important to your team. Damage at those areas, and other similar ones, are not worth much at all when it comes to winning. Simply, some damage is waaaay more equal then other damage.

A player who did 500 dmg at an important stage of the game is way more important then some guy who did 2k damage in an unimportant stage or area.

Carry your own weigth and all be good, carry significantly more than own weigth and all be very good.

No matter which map, at what stage in what vehicle or whether you win.

Really simple!

Hence the mighty dmg statement remains.



ZlatanArKung #19 Posted 18 May 2020 - 09:14 PM

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View PostStronkiTonki, on 18 May 2020 - 08:44 PM, said:

In the end, there is not statistical way to show when a player made a crucial decision that drastically effected the battle outcome.

I absolutely agree that it can be possible that a player A who did 500 damage at a crucial moment can be more important than player B farming 2k damage at a less important spot. But there is simply no statistical way to tell it apart.

It is also possible that player A's damage would not have been as crucial if player B had not farmed 2k damage in the first place. It is all very situational.

 

In the end, even though some situations are more important to do damage, the main goal is still to eliminate the enemy team. So all contribution that helps towards achieving it helps. And damage is at least statistically measurable.

 

As for the rest, in general, all the things that are listed are going to be helpful. The more tools at your disposal, the better.

But the most important things as far as I believe are:

-Knowing tank capabilities, stats like a tank's speed, alpha, pen, armor layout, view range, but also it's weaknesses.

-Knowing the game mechanics, view range & camo for the most part

-Knowing the map meta, aka, being able to predict what kind of tanks go to what positions, and how battles usually progress throughout time

-Studying the map constantly, and reacting apropriately by falling back when needed, repositioning when needed in order to exploit a situation that will grant you free damage or positional superiority.

It is very hard to differentiate between good damage and irrelevant damage. But the claim that 'I had a high impact because I did 2k dmg' is not always true, sometimes it is, and most often it is. But there are instances where it isn't, which is important to keep in mind.

A problem with measurable stuff is the we often value what is measurable without any thought about why we value it. Maybe we should measure what we value instead of value what we measure. 

 

While the other stuff are kind of important, they are not crucial skills when you want to become a good WoT player. The skills required for that lies much more in the skill of gathering information on the map and then make a good decision based on that information. But this isn't really measurable at all. Which is why I believe it gets overshadowed by measurable stuff.

20:16 Added after 2 minute

View Postazakow, on 18 May 2020 - 09:00 PM, said:

Carry your own weigth and all be good, carry significantly more than own weigth and all be very good.

No matter which map, at what stage in what vehicle or whether you win.

Really simple!

Hence the mighty dmg statement remains.

No. Not true for all cases.

 

Imagine you playing Overlord and you go beach. Pretty much 100% of the damage you do there have very little to no impact on the outcome of the game.

If your team win the high ground, then they can, without much problems, kill all tanks of beach and do all the damage you did there. If your team loses the high ground,  then you get farmed by tanks from high ground, so your damage was mostly useless anyway.

 

So it isn't that simple, there are way more aspects to consider here then just a raw value.


Edited by ZlatanArKung, 18 May 2020 - 09:19 PM.


24doom24 #20 Posted 18 May 2020 - 09:30 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 18 May 2020 - 07:23 PM, said:

It is a team game, and your WR is a good reflection on how good you are at working together with other players.

19:23 Added after 0 minute

HEAT will not pen up to 85 degrees, HEAT get a chance at penning up to 85 degrees.

Lol no.






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