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Maps. tactic and 15 to 0 results.


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Alfa_Tau #1 Posted 19 May 2020 - 06:07 PM

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Hello fellow tankers

today I want to share with you my opinion on WHY many games end in short time and with one team completely dominating the other.

My point of view is that this is happening because on many maps the possible tactics to be used are quite limited. Therefore if a team DO NOT apply the correect one it will be easily destroyed by the opponent. 

 

To be more clear I will make a real life example that is based on my today experience. 

MAP : Prokorovka; 1 Arty x Team 2 Heavy tanks x Team rest medium and TDS. (sorry cant recall the exact numbers )

Tier IX and Tier VIII only 

 

I was in the North team and in my medium tank and decided to go to the hill on the zero line.

Suddenly I noticed I was alone; all TD went in the bushes the 2 heavy in center . 

By the time I arrived on the hill enemy had a clear advantage on center (2 HT + 2 Med) while 1 light and 3 med were attacking me dowwn the hill.

Being alone I tried to retreat but was easily killed. 

All enemies completely flanked our center and game ended very quicly. 

 

Now this is only an example but my experience is that on several maps there is only one real tactic that can be employed and if a team fail to counter that tactic the game is over.

many maps are WELL known by old time players while less experienced  ones perhaps think that they can go pretty much everywhere. 

Perhaps it would be useful IF WG will release some videos to explain how maps should be played? 

 

Do you agree.? 

Do you think there are other reason for this knid of more and more frequent flash games? 

I would like to know

Thanks

 



shikaka9 #2 Posted 19 May 2020 - 06:14 PM

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15-0 battles are the best :great:

 

 


Edited by shikaka9, 19 May 2020 - 06:16 PM.


Balc0ra #3 Posted 19 May 2020 - 06:22 PM

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I've had a few different 15-0 experiences of late. Not today, but not that far back either that differs from yours, even tho I've seen that one too.

 

One game I lost that badly because our scout, an EBR 75 pushed right into their base to kill arty, and failed badly. Nor did he take a path that spotted much to let us know what went where. They had a Bulldog passive spotting somewhere solid that did light up most of our team. And by the time they did see anything, they had lost 6 guns and the losses went faster and faster.

 

Then something you could argue is a map tactic, but also a balance issue. My team had mobile paper HTs as top tiers. Their team had slow super heavies as top tiers. Our 50 100 went the medium lane with our mediums and lights and cleared house rather fast. Their VK 100.01 platoon went the HT lane vs almost nothing, and by the time they got guns on anything, or could react our push. Most of their team was dead for it to matter. As they did not have a mobile advantage on top tier.

 

Now on maps like Emperors Border's, you definitely have seen your point a few times as the map being the issue. But other times, it's a class balance issue with team classes, etc. As well as the map.



Alfa_Tau #4 Posted 19 May 2020 - 06:23 PM

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View Postshikaka9, on 19 May 2020 - 06:14 PM, said:

15-0 battles are the best :great:

 

 


:hiding:



StronkiTonki #5 Posted 19 May 2020 - 07:42 PM

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imho stomps keep happening because:

-Vehicles across the board are faster - Heaviums, Bobjects, etc

-Tanks have higher alpha than ever and there are more autoloaders then ever. Making time to kill super short compared to the past.



DiMtopia #6 Posted 19 May 2020 - 08:45 PM

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View PostStronkiTonki, on 19 May 2020 - 08:42 PM, said:

imho stomps keep happening because:

-Vehicles across the board are faster - Heaviums, Bobjects, etc

-Tanks have higher alpha than ever and there are more autoloaders then ever. Making time to kill super short compared to the past.

 

also it's easier than ever for new and inexperienced players to get to higher tiers.

with boosters, X5 xp packages, premium and all that what used to take hundreds of battles can now take an afternoon.

this does not mean that people with tens of thousands of battles are great, heck i've seen plenty of 42% wr accounts that had 30k battles.



Dramya #7 Posted 19 May 2020 - 11:59 PM

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View PostDiMtopia, on 19 May 2020 - 09:45 PM, said:

 

also it's easier than ever for new and inexperienced players to get to higher tiers.

with boosters, X5 xp packages, premium and all that what used to take hundreds of battles can now take an afternoon.

this does not mean that people with tens of thousands of battles are great, heck i've seen plenty of 42% wr accounts that had 30k battles.

 

How about the 125k 43% one I encountered yesterday? And it was not a bot, he replied sensibly to insults (not mine)

 

I also make great use of the 5x xp missions I earn with .... missions, they are great. But indeed there is the problem that a newbie can do the same and end up in a tier 10 game with far less experience to show. For me they are awesome, saves a lot of time grinding, but I'm also aware of the pitfalls that come with it. However, if given the choice I would not have them in the game simply because it forces people to gain experience, which is actually a good thing.



Spurtung #8 Posted 20 May 2020 - 02:12 AM

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View PostAlfa_Tau, on 19 May 2020 - 05:07 PM, said:

I was in the North team and in my medium tank and decided to go to the hill on the zero line.

Suddenly I noticed I was alone; all TD went in the bushes the 2 heavy in center . 

By the time I arrived on the hill enemy had a clear advantage on center (2 HT + 2 Med) while 1 light and 3 med were attacking me dowwn the hill.

Being alone I tried to retreat but was easily killed. 

All enemies completely flanked our center and game ended very quicly. 

 

Now this is only an example but my experience is that on several maps there is only one real tactic that can be employed and if a team fail to counter that tactic the game is over.

many maps are WELL known by old time players while less experienced  ones perhaps think that they can go pretty much everywhere. 

Perhaps it would be useful IF WG will release some videos to explain how maps should be played

 

Do you agree.? 

Do you think there are other reason for this knid of more and more frequent flash games? 

I would like to know

Thanks

 

I've highlighted what really bothered me the most.

 

a) you don't just suddenly find out you're alone because, had you looked at the minimap, you were probably the only one crossing the railroad in the first place. That should have been a red flag and make you adjust accordingly, not insist on your "this is the right thing to do" view of things. And this brings us to:

 

b) your clearly lacking experience makes you falsely believe that there is only one right thing to do and one valid tactic. That is absolutely not true. It depends on what tanks are in the MM, for example, and how you expect them to behave. Giving up the east in that map is not a sign the game is lost, it's what you do after doing it that matters. If there is always someone able to spot A6 and E6 while others are ready to shoot at them, then what's the problem of not going hill in the first place? Again, this brings us to:

 

c) that won't be useful. Ever. That would dumb down the game even further with very little gain. Besides, who the hell wants to do the same thing over and over and over for thousands of battles? That's a waste of time. Players should engage their brain instead and adjust to new situations. Doing what you suggest would mean that whenever someone isn't doing their role, then someone else would stupidly YOLO because there was little point in remaining in a lost battle. There's no black and white here, and most definitely there isn't, nor should there ever be, a plan of "meds go here, heavies go there, scout does this" for every map, as that is boring and takes zero effort and thought, while also disregarding any differences in teams' compositions.

 

 

tl,dr: do what's best to win the match, regardless of your vehicle's class, in every match you play.


Edited by Spurtung, 20 May 2020 - 02:13 AM.


Alfa_Tau #9 Posted 20 May 2020 - 06:13 AM

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View PostSpurtung, on 20 May 2020 - 02:12 AM, said:

 

I've highlighted what really bothered me the most.

 

a) you don't just suddenly find out you're alone because, had you looked at the minimap, you were probably the only one crossing the railroad in the first place. That should have been a red flag and make you adjust accordingly, not insist on your "this is the right thing to do" view of things. And this brings us to:

 

b) your clearly lacking experience makes you falsely believe that there is only one right thing to do and one valid tactic. That is absolutely not true. It depends on what tanks are in the MM, for example, and how you expect them to behave. Giving up the east in that map is not a sign the game is lost, it's what you do after doing it that matters. If there is always someone able to spot A6 and E6 while others are ready to shoot at them, then what's the problem of not going hill in the first place? Again, this brings us to:

 

c) that won't be useful. Ever. That would dumb down the game even further with very little gain. Besides, who the hell wants to do the same thing over and over and over for thousands of battles? That's a waste of time. Players should engage their brain instead and adjust to new situations. Doing what you suggest would mean that whenever someone isn't doing their role, then someone else would stupidly YOLO because there was little point in remaining in a lost battle. There's no black and white here, and most definitely there isn't, nor should there ever be, a plan of "meds go here, heavies go there, scout does this" for every map, as that is boring and takes zero effort and thought, while also disregarding any differences in teams' compositions.

 

 

tl,dr: do what's best to win the match, regardless of your vehicle's class, in every match you play.

 

Thanks for your observations, however I would like to point out a few things:

a) in Prokorovka the majority of times the team that control the hill win. NOT ALWAYS but in my experience at least 80% of the time. Yes you are right there other possibilities depending on MM and team composition. To reinforce this I can tell you 1 time I was top tier in my Tortoise and I simply pushed through the bushes in 2 line forcing the enemy TD to shoot me and spotting them. It happened to me that time only and I exploited my tank and the fact I was top tier. But this is HOW it should be.

Many maps have a "main point" that give a huge advantage to the team that control it. (OFC a "bad" team may not be able to expoit that advantage). 

b) an exceptional player may carry the game even in very bad circumstances. That's NOT my case as I am bad. but my experience in the game bring me to the conclusion that a good position and the right tactic applied by a team are quite often more successful than a single very skilled player.

c ) I partially agree with this point. BUT remember that is mostly terrain that determine what tactic you use. Many maps have corridors that are likely to be blocked by only 2 tanks. The only real variable I see in game is the presence or absence of arta. For example in lakeville when there is no arta I gladley drive up the valley but if there is arta I wont. 

:honoring:

05:16 Added after 2 minute

View PostStronkiTonki, on 19 May 2020 - 07:42 PM, said:

imho stomps keep happening because:

-Vehicles across the board are faster - Heaviums, Bobjects, etc

-Tanks have higher alpha than ever and there are more autoloaders then ever. Making time to kill super short compared to the past.


Your point is valid BUT the vehicles are available to both team and in general MM do not mess up so much-

Yes sometime it put all WV in the same team or 1 more autoloader in 1 team BUT this alone do not really justify 15 to zero  or similar.

Thats in my opinion .-

:honoring:



Spurtung #10 Posted 20 May 2020 - 06:27 AM

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View PostAlfa_Tau, on 20 May 2020 - 05:13 AM, said:

a) in Prokorovka the majority of times the team that control the hill win. NOT ALWAYS but in my experience at least 80% of the time.

 

No, they won't, just like they don't in Himmelsdorf or Malinovka, unless there's a fight for it.

 

I'll explain.

One thing is 6 tanks on each team battling those places and one team coming out victorious. The losing team is now down 6 tanks while possibly taking out 2-4 tanks and then there's a bit of a snowball effect from other parts of the map where cross firing happens.

BUT

When a team just outright gives away those places? Good luck coming down from there. You will find yourself victorious on a hill, unable to move, and soon surrounded from all sides since your team was easily outnumbered everywhere else.

 

So, no, simply controlling the hill means very little to the final outcome.


Edited by Spurtung, 20 May 2020 - 06:27 AM.


mikem70 #11 Posted 20 May 2020 - 07:32 AM

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I guess the fun thing about tactics (or lack thereof) is that it does mirror one aspect of real warfare. Not fun being on the receiving end, nor not a lot of fun being on the stomper team TBH (I'm not quick enough generally to exploit stomps and end up with low dmg).

apples33d #12 Posted 20 May 2020 - 07:53 AM

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Kinda agree with you there, althought adapting to the dynamic of the game is IMO what gives victory over defeat, it only works with talented players which many of us arent, key positions exists on maps and they should be taken and used, how many time have I seen lemming trains on maps where you need to deploy widely in order to avoid crossfire, resulting in an utter loss in the first 3 minutes of the game... Add to that there are so many "bad" maps (too little, too much corridors and nt enough open spaces, one side favored over the other, etc etc)

People in T7-9 NOT knowing how to deploy and NOT playing their tank to the fullest baffles me, I have 5K battle and I know I shouldnt cross in an open field with a slow heavy while I can take sideshots, I mean its simple logic, I know I wont trade with a kv2 in my kv85 unless I'm in a decent cover or far enough so ha has hard time to pop me in a single or two shots; I know that if I dont take some position as fast as possible it open a road for the enemy to simply overrun one flank without being punished and take advantage really fast. It doesnt mean I'm a great player because I still do too many mistakes (notably managing when yoloing and when to be patient) but still, too many times I see a battle lost in 3 minutes simply because people deploy like [edited]. 

Some exemples I have in mind (note that they are personnal experience and sometime we still win not deploying like that, but I often lose when its not done) 

Ensk : People letting the East side totally free, I mean you dont need to all go this side and dont fight for the city, but at least 3-4 lights / meds are usefull to avoid them just overrun this side in no time
Lakeville : No one spotting / taking side shots from the middle lane, one tank is enough here, but taking side shots at the city is a huge plus in victory IMO (especially when the cap is in the city, not so true in normal mode)
Malinovka : OUR ENTIRE TEAM camping the base, light included, while their light spot them all and poof, everyone is dead 
Murovanka : not spotting / taking middle, the whole team pushing west side only while we are overrun in the forest / middle, resulting in crossfire you cant reayy defend from
Overlord : No beach please... its easy, the more tank I've seen on the beach, the more easy it is for the enemy to win, I should try a linear regression here because I'm pretty sure it can be representative, its not rocket science to know that when you give all the higher grounds to your enemies, you might lose badly, yet people insist on pushing beach while 2 heavies are enough to stall the entire game there

Prokhorovka : well, you know, when your whole team is camping the red line on the west side and yell at you to yolo spot and die instantly while there is no one in mid / hill to at least light them so we can crossfire, you know you're in for a bad time
Serene coast : this is one of my most traumatic experience on this map, I still dont know why our team often totaly let the North west corner (little hill) totally unprotected and ALL go for the heavy line but its lost 90% of the time when it happens. 

I can go on but you see the point, even if these spots are not instawin and even if its often lemming rush that loses the game and not "such tank needs to be in this position and not any other one", flexibility is something you learn with time, but basic deployment is something that makes games last a bit IMO. I love when our top tier heavies deploy like crapand then yell at us while they did 200 dmg in their T9... 

I'm basically a light player, and when my team yell at me for not spotting in unbearable positions (basically they yell because I dont suicide) I simply facepalm now, if you are support support me, I wont take risky spots in the open while you deployed like a redline camper just so you can take one (usually missed) risky shot at the guys who will kill me in seconds. 

Went a bit side on the subject but I think many of these things can explain the 15/0 syndrom. 

Cheers

 


Edited by apples33d, 20 May 2020 - 08:01 AM.


DiMtopia #13 Posted 20 May 2020 - 08:34 AM

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View Postapples33d, on 20 May 2020 - 08:53 AM, said:

adapting to the dynamic of the game is IMO what gives victory over defeat,

 

 

most people know a few spots on the map where they like to play and stick to those regardless of what happens in game or how their team deploys.

 

i've seen scouts go alone on a flank despite clearly seeing a lemming train forming on the other side, then complaining nobody shoots at what they spot. well, duh, didn't you see you were alone? who could have shot them?

but on that map they know that bush and nothing else so they go there and that's it.

 

same for other classes, like arty going to a place where they know they have certain shooting angles not caring if they have anybody on that flank or not.

or a heavy going in the city alone just because he's been mentally programmed to think that no matter what heavies go to city. and then he dies and blames the team for not giving him support.

sure, it's the team's fault if all other heavies stayed back to snipe, but it's also your fault for putting yourself in an impossible to win situation.



imendars #14 Posted 20 May 2020 - 10:39 AM

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View PostDramya, on 20 May 2020 - 01:59 AM, said:

 

How about the 125k 43% one I encountered yesterday? And it was not a bot, he replied sensibly to insults (not mine)

 

I also make great use of the 5x xp missions I earn with .... missions, they are great. But indeed there is the problem that a newbie can do the same and end up in a tier 10 game with far less experience to show. For me they are awesome, saves a lot of time grinding, but I'm also aware of the pitfalls that come with it. However, if given the choice I would not have them in the game simply because it forces people to gain experience, which is actually a good thing.

 

Now its super easy to become tier 10 from nothing if one is willing to spend lots of $$$:

1) Buy T26E5 biggest package (Crew already is 100% or gets bought)

2) Play (and annoy everyone but oh well...) while having all the boosts for xp and crew xp

3) Collect 800 thousand xp and 6 milion silver

4) Get more gold if needed to buy all the gathered xp and buy tier 10...

5) Transfer crew to tier 10 and fix it up with all the crew books gained from events and so on.

So one could get tier 10 in one month... If loads of events, missions and what not - perhaps lot faster.

:trollface:

In this way one could have second tank in account - tier 10 :trollface:



ExistanceUK #15 Posted 20 May 2020 - 11:56 AM

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Many maps have what I call noob-traps, the beach on Overlord, the 8/9 line on Serene Coast, going north on Sand River, all noob-traps.

These are traps because generally you go there and cannot support or get supported by the rest of your team (except arty of course). You cannot progress from these well even if you win them, they are therefore pointless and hence traps for noobs.



mpf1959 #16 Posted 20 May 2020 - 12:00 PM

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Maps. tactic and 15 to 0 results.

 

Hah! I've seen in worse results than that! :playing:



Claus_KeIIerman #17 Posted 20 May 2020 - 12:01 PM

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View PostDramya, on 19 May 2020 - 10:59 PM, said:

And it was not a bot, he replied sensibly to insults 

 

Hilarious.  :teethhappy:



Slyspy #18 Posted 20 May 2020 - 01:44 PM

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View PostSpurtung, on 20 May 2020 - 06:27 AM, said:

 

No, they won't, just like they don't in Himmelsdorf or Malinovka, unless there's a fight for it.

 

I'll explain.

One thing is 6 tanks on each team battling those places and one team coming out victorious. The losing team is now down 6 tanks while possibly taking out 2-4 tanks and then there's a bit of a snowball effect from other parts of the map where cross firing happens.

BUT

When a team just outright gives away those places? Good luck coming down from there. You will find yourself victorious on a hill, unable to move, and soon surrounded from all sides since your team was easily outnumbered everywhere else.

 

So, no, simply controlling the hill means very little to the final outcome.

 

The issue with not contesting the hill on Prok is a real one. Teams will hardly ever push the road because usually the players or tanks there are natural bushwankers, waiting for someone else to make a move. Anyone who goes to be the pin holding the middle can't do anything much if the enemy holds the hill uncontested, in the same way that taking the hill can be tricky if there is no one in the middle. Meanwhile the guys on the road will just sit there, waiting to win or die depending on how the rest of the team do.



StronkiTonki #19 Posted 20 May 2020 - 07:36 PM

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View PostAlfa_Tau, on 20 May 2020 - 05:13 AM, said:

Your point is valid BUT the vehicles are available to both team and in general MM do not mess up so much-

Yes sometime it put all WV in the same team or 1 more autoloader in 1 team BUT this alone do not really justify 15 to zero  or similar.

Thats in my opinion .-

:honoring:

 

Having the tanks on both teams shouldn't make any difference.

The main benefit from the faster speeds is that vehicles just move around the map quicker. Enabling for quicker map domination and pincer maneuvers.

When one flank gets won, they can continue to quickly move around the map to pincer the remaining enemies. Which is where vehicle speed just enables players to stomp everything very quickly. I'm not just talking about wheelies, but super fast heavies as well,  and faster 430U's with ultra armor. These tanks pack a lot of firepower, with plenty of armor, and move at a very fast speed. Enabling hyper agressive play, and just letting them cross the entire map within minutes.

 

Same deal with autoloaders and high alpha. It doesn't make any difference if both teams have access to them or not.

High alpha & autoloaders are just more common than ever, so team setups in general have more high alpha and autoloaders. Just because the enemy also might have high alpha & autoloaders, doesn't change the fact that time to kill is insanely quick.

It just takes a few decent players to correctly prioritize targets, and an enemy can die within a matter of seconds.

And it just takes one second of not paying correct attention by a few less coordinated enemies to screw up and get farmed by all the high alpha & autoloaders.

And since only one tank will instantly get killed by only a few shots, often one single shot from a unique tank, the enemy already loses a big chunk of their firepower. Creating a domino effect, since it instantly weakens their chance to fight back, because of how much potential alpha damage they have just lost.



evilchaosmonkey #20 Posted 20 May 2020 - 07:49 PM

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I'd say it's far more basic.  The player base are utterly and truly thick.

Realise that the comfort of your retirement is largely based on these people.

Then panic.






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