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Is the Badger an upgrade to Tortoise?

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General_Jack_D_Ripper #1 Posted 23 May 2020 - 06:23 AM


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  1. Vehicle Section of little Help
  2. Tortoise Gameplay
  3. Letdown in the past
  4. Badger in theory
  5. Help me


1. Vehicle Section of Little Help

First of all: Yes, there is a vehicle section, but these are deserted.

British TD Section

On the first page, there are topics by year:

2013: 1

2014: 8

2015: 6

2016: 2

2017: 19

2018: 7

2019: 6

2020: 1

As many topics from current year, as from seven years ago.


2. Tortoise Gameplay

OK, so here is the thing: Back in the past, Tortoise was an amazing tank. It is best while not driven like a tank destroyer, but the impending doom lurking in the unknown. Standing in the bushes the huge potential goes to waste.

No, Torte has to be, where the enemy does not expect it.

Torte has to be pressure, where none is bearable.

Torte cannot be beaten face to face. Torte needs strategy to be undone.

Therefore Torte is doom.

To be a little more descriptive: I like to be upfront an personal in Torte. It is possible to make pushes where most tanks cannot, therefore surprise the enemy. Once u arrive u create terror in the hearty, because they cannot react. The enemy may be littered over a vast front, through the amazing gun arc and great side armor u are able to angle Torte, so little shots will penetrate.


3. Letdown in the past

So in in the past, after Torte came FV215b (183). It was nothing like the tanks before, it was nothing like Torte, it was some crazy tank destroyer which was not worth playing. It was a one trick pony with a huge gun. Instead of fast reliable damage it put out slow unreliable damage. Frustrating for the player and frustrating for the enemies at the receiving end, should it hit.

So that was the end of it. I sold my Torte, bought that thing. I had 9 battles, did incredible weak (1k less average damage) and stopped playing this abomination.


4. Badger in Theory

Therefore I am not keen on making the same mistake twice. At the first look, badger seems like fitting to the style. High DPM, high frontal armor, slow mobility.

But is it a real upgrade?

It has a higher alpha and a bit better penetration and still shoots every 6,3 seconds, or so. So it may still keep the enemy perma tracked.

It has same aiming time, though and only little better dispersion. Gun handling is exactly the same .

But here is my problem: Torte can be an immense aggressor, because it is insanely hard to outmaneuver this beast. It turns quick enough, shoots quick enough to track and has good side armor to bounce the odd shot.

Badgers gun moves much slower, Badger has way less armor on the sides and on the back, Badger effectively turns slower and has a worse firing arc.

To add insult to injury, it has a huge glaring frontal weak spot in the lower hull. Torte can negate that copula through movement quite well on medium and longer distances, or hide it in a city. Hiding the lower plate is often times much more difficult.

And Badger has (of course) much worse matchmaking

So in theory, Badger should be much more TD-like. I have the impression, that it only can withstand a narrow enemy front. Yes, it may be faster, but in my view not to put more pressure on the enemy, but to relocate from position in second line to different position in second line much faster.


5. Help me

I adore Torte, I have high average damage (>2,5k), high average XP(>1k) and my highest XP in any tank in Torte(1782 base). It is an amazing tank which does not behave like TD at all.

I fear Badger is an alternative, not an upgrade.

To be more precise: Badger seems like an alternative with (for me) less attractive playstyle.

Is Badger a real upgrade, considering why I enjoy Torte?

Edited by General_Jack_D_Ripper, 23 May 2020 - 07:01 AM.

UrQuan #2 Posted 23 May 2020 - 06:41 AM

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If you found the Tortoise fun, my advice is to keep it. It is not only the tank, but also the tier; Most folks find tier 9 more enjoyable then tier 10. Not to mention that there's quite some tier 9 tanks that are more enjoyable & feel better then their Tier 10 counterpart. Tanks that come to mind where the T9 is better/more fun: ST-I (IS-4 has issues with gun handling & lack of shells), VK 45 B ( the TX variant has troubles sidescraping due to the bulge on sides, a bad thing for a rear-placed turret tank), the T95 (a true armored beast, compared to the E3).


Something that got left out that would help deciding. Track armor, the tortoise has one of the highest track armors in the game at 50+mm (and secondaries at 35mm), while the Badger oddly has more regular track armor at 25mm (secondaries mostly 25mm too, with some at 6mm)

In short it is much harder to track, pen & damage a tortoise then a Badger.

Also the Badger has surprisingly thin rear top armor, which is real bad news if you got arty in the game as they can actually penetrate it with HE & no amount of spall liner will help then. Tortoise top armor makes this scenario much less likely.


So from all that, it seems your analysis in Tortoise being the more fun tank is pretty bang on. Badger gets the advantage of being able to be practically immune to shells in a good TD location, while the Tortoise has more room in absorbing damage from enemies despite its cupola in a more frontline role.

Oh and tier 9 is generally seen as more fun to play then tier 10 as well (as mentioned above).

Hence only get the Badger imo if you got funds to spare (and don't sell the tortosie for it, keep it if you enjoy it). I always kept my fun tanks too, as it is a game after all & TX is not an endgoal.

Edited by UrQuan, 23 May 2020 - 06:58 AM.

wsatnutter #3 Posted 23 May 2020 - 06:59 AM

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I must admit when I bring my tortoise out its a fun time

NUKLEAR_SLUG #4 Posted 23 May 2020 - 07:51 AM

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Tortoise is better. Badger might have more DPM, but it's at the expense of ROF and while you can permatrack people with the Tortoise the Badger isn't able to do that as well. Also Tortoise got a buff a while back so that cupola weakness is not the tragedy it used to be, people have to aim properly at it now. Tortoise is a beast. 

mpf1959 #5 Posted 23 May 2020 - 11:21 AM


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I have both but do better in the Tortoise in spite of the fact that on paper the Badger is seems to be better.

Chuwt #6 Posted 23 May 2020 - 11:57 AM


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I enjoy playing tortoise.
In theory the badger is good, but in practice I had great problems trying to get it to work, certainly it is not a tortoise +.

I think the acid test of how good a tank is seen to be at any given time is the ammount it is played...if you see 2-4 on each team most battles, it is seen as good, if you see the very occasional 1 on one team ony (as the badger is), then not...


FatigueGalaxy #7 Posted 23 May 2020 - 12:15 PM


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Badger kinda sucks, tbh. Almost the same DPM but a whole tier higher. Increased alpha should be better in theory but in practice it's worse because you can't permatrack people (and even if they repair instantly you can probably shoot them again in Tortoise if their reverse speed is bad). Penetration is just bad for slow, frontal assault TD. Armour is overall worse because instead of tiny weakspot on top, you get huge LFP. It's a big, flat pancake too so arty wrecks it. Also, you get barely any HP.

Better speed is nice, I guess... But still - it's barely an upgrade and is some aspects it's worse than Tortoise while tier 10 battles (especially full tier 10) is a completely different reality.

General_Jack_D_Ripper #8 Posted 23 May 2020 - 05:14 PM


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OK, thank u guys.

I will keep my Torte(German: cake) and will eat it, too.

tajj7 #9 Posted 23 May 2020 - 06:06 PM

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No because the lower plate means you can only play hull down really whereas Tortoise can work corners, and the pen is not enough on the Badger, you have just 272mm AP which is rubbish for a slow TD at tier 10 and you actually get LESS premium pen, a tier higher. 


For the MM difference between the two, considering tier 9 is the sweet spot, the Badger is just not enough of an upgrade. They need to make the standard and premium pen higher, make the DPM actually properly higher and probably swap the lower plate weakness for a cupola one so the Badger can actually push a bit more. 

Edited by tajj7, 23 May 2020 - 06:06 PM.

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