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The real impact of APCR and HEAT rounds in WOT

apcr; heat; rounds ammo

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Search_Warrant #41 Posted 28 May 2020 - 04:00 PM

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View PostThe_Naa, on 28 May 2020 - 02:48 PM, said:

 

its the ''weapon pull'' if this ammo is more effective than this ammo, players will use it.

why?

because we want to win. i will throw all my ''Special ammo'' Gold at the enemy if i want/need to win.

im not going to spare few extra credits just because ''oh wait i dont need this high pen for that tank, please wait while i reload my gun'' even douple clicking takes that few extra milliseconds to do and that matters.

even the shell velocity matters. i dont want the enemy get any chances to get the ''Eye for an eye'' award. if the shell connects faster it means he has that few frames less to fire his gun that means i win and you lose, good day sir.

HEAT has the added benefit of ignoring armour angling, so you cant pull a weird angle against my gun to hope i bounce, nah i load HEAT cuz that has higer chance to ignore your armour angling and kill you so the for i win and you lose, good day sir.

if i know you are paper and i have normal/gold HE or HESH i will load that to penetrate your tank and absolutley destroy you there for i win and you lose, good day sir.

AP has no real benefits to it so its not even worth using all the time, only if you have HEAT or HE and you need to shoot trough a wall or a car you need AP to connect, but other than that its useless.
i will not throw away my chances of winning just because i did not want to spend few credits to kill you better.

spamming gold is tryharding and its good, i wish more people would do that because i dont want to lose a game because my team mate was too cheap to shoot Gold to win that engagement.

 

Spoiler

 


Sounds like china mantality, win at any cost. its only cheating if you get caught. ect.



Mimos_A #42 Posted 28 May 2020 - 04:10 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 28 May 2020 - 03:48 PM, said:

 

Well if you have no viable frontal weakspots and an enemy has no money to shoot premium ammo, what do you expect? At least you are not taking full damage each hit like with premium ammo.

 

Cobra 6

 

I completely agree. Which is why just talking about prem ammo being the issue doesn't make much sense. It's a combination of a whole host of poorly balanced things that lead to a mess.

 

(also, I don't mind the HE damage, mostly the ridiculous amount of crits, like 2 dead crew members from a HE shot that does less than 200 damage etc...)


Edited by Mimos_A, 28 May 2020 - 04:12 PM.


The_Naa #43 Posted 28 May 2020 - 04:11 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 28 May 2020 - 04:00 PM, said:


Sounds like china mantality, win at any cost. its only cheating if you get caught. ect.


well dont i dont use cheats, i run the vanilla game, but if the game lets me do a thing that allows me to win more i will take it. and so will others.

if you nerf Gold to the ground we will use the ammo that now is the best type of ammo.

if you nerf the best tank in the game we will use the tank that is now considered the best.

because we want to win.

 

but a small disclaimer, i mostle play the game for fun, BUT if i need to do a mission, objective (win 1 battle, best of your team my damage caused, survive) or i am trying to get marks of excelendes, i will do and use what ever is available to me that guarantees success. (the best tank, equpment, directives, best modules, consumables, ammo, crew, what have you.)

but when i am not doing A thing i will dont tryhard, i just play for chill and fun. :)



Unicorn_of_Steel #44 Posted 28 May 2020 - 05:17 PM

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View PostJocMeister, on 28 May 2020 - 02:42 PM, said:

 

So playing well armored tanks should be even easier then it now? Since by your reasoning the currently most dominant class in the game should be even harder to kill?

 

 

No, that is not what i meant but i can't really put in words how i feel about it. It's probably my limited experience with playing heavy tanks (Tiger 131, Tiger 1 and 2). For me it looks like the majority of players press 2 the moment they see a heavy, regardless of other possible solutions like flanking or setting up a trap with a more powerfull ally. So there is no fun (for me) in playing those tanks. And personally i don't see the fun for my opponent because this requires no skill or effort. 



NUKLEAR_SLUG #45 Posted 28 May 2020 - 06:08 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 28 May 2020 - 03:48 PM, said:

Well if you have no viable frontal weakspots and an enemy has no money to shoot premium ammo, what do you expect? At least you are not taking full damage each hit like with premium ammo.

 

Cobra 6

 

I was watching TruVoodoo the other day, he was talking thru his plays as he was making them. He was commenting on why he was deciding to load HEAT because he reckoned with standard rounds the tank he was about to engage was "only" a 70% chance to pen the lower plate.

 

People complain about lack of weakspots on tanks but the problem is not so much lack of places to pen a shell but the expectation players have that they should be able to pen every shot. 



Homer_J #46 Posted 28 May 2020 - 06:18 PM

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View PostPedro_Agnus, on 28 May 2020 - 01:06 PM, said:

 

Sure is not all the time but players no longer care anymore at "aiming"

 

Show me a replay of you not having to aim because you are using APCR or HEAT and I will repay the costs in gold equivalent.



Kdingo #47 Posted 28 May 2020 - 07:45 PM

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Probably unpopular opinion but i find HE with current mechanics far more annoying and damaging against super heavy tanks.

I mean what would you rather face, a type 5 just blapping in your face or a maus/e100 spamming gold. I rather go with the later any day of the week.



Objec7 #48 Posted 28 May 2020 - 08:45 PM

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I think people who don't shoot gold see gold ammo alpha nerf as a 'buff' to themselves and that's why they refuse to look at the other solutions recommended by experts and high skilled players of the game. Like someone said players will choose the best way to deal with enemies, if gold ammo alpha gets a nerf, you can be sure not many players will play tanks without armor or low standard ammo penetration any more, neither will they spam gold. If you have 2k dpg in your Maus it won't raise just because of gold ammo nerf, neither will your win rate (unless Maus becomes op of course, but that's not the point). The players you say have no skill because they shoot gold to pen without aiming will outplay bad players either way, you will see.

Galan7891 #49 Posted 28 May 2020 - 10:03 PM

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View PostObjec7, on 28 May 2020 - 08:45 PM, said:

I think people who don't shoot gold see gold ammo alpha nerf as a 'buff' to themselves and that's why they refuse to look at the other solutions recommended by experts and high skilled players of the game. Like someone said players will choose the best way to deal with enemies, if gold ammo alpha gets a nerf, you can be sure not many players will play tanks without armor or low standard ammo penetration any more, neither will they spam gold. If you have 2k dpg in your Maus it won't raise just because of gold ammo nerf, neither will your win rate (unless Maus becomes op of course, but that's not the point). The players you say have no skill because they shoot gold to pen without aiming will outplay bad players either way, you will see.


I dont think that ammo changes will affect if people will play lightly armored tanks since usually those tanks have a different playstyle than those with armor.Same goes for tanks with low pen for standard ammo.You dont play a Badger or an EBR for their standard pen.

I agree that any nerfs/changes to premium ammo will not make any mediocre players better.



Cobra6 #50 Posted 29 May 2020 - 09:24 AM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 28 May 2020 - 05:08 PM, said:

 

I was watching TruVoodoo the other day, he was talking thru his plays as he was making them. He was commenting on why he was deciding to load HEAT because he reckoned with standard rounds the tank he was about to engage was "only" a 70% chance to pen the lower plate.

 

People complain about lack of weakspots on tanks but the problem is not so much lack of places to pen a shell but the expectation players have that they should be able to pen every shot. 

 

A weakspot should be a guaranteed pen for same tier standard ammo, that is why it's called a weakspots. If it was a potential pen, it's not a weak-spot but a perhaps-spot.

 

Back in the days, weak-spots were guaranteed pens for the guns on the same tier with standard ammo, which was a very good system which promoted skill and knowledge as well as not needlessly draining credits for no reason.

 

Cobra 6



tajj7 #51 Posted 29 May 2020 - 10:25 AM

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View PostPedro_Agnus, on 28 May 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

That's a perspective of a player who always use APCR! ....
I tell you this: Lansen was shoting APCR right? At my CDC.... Wasn't he able to pen me using normal rounds? DEFINITELY YES! Why spaming "special rounds" on a paper tank? Just because he can right? Sure... Not the point! The point is... Was not even needed!!!!
Was just an example how players use APCR no matter what! No skill... No aim... Nothing!

Get it? :ohmy:

 

How do you know he was spamming? He fired 3 shots, he could have had it loaded for something else or forgotten or run out of standard etc. 

 

 

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 28 May 2020 - 05:08 PM, said:

 

I was watching TruVoodoo the other day, he was talking thru his plays as he was making them. He was commenting on why he was deciding to load HEAT because he reckoned with standard rounds the tank he was about to engage was "only" a 70% chance to pen the lower plate.

 

People complain about lack of weakspots on tanks but the problem is not so much lack of places to pen a shell but the expectation players have that they should be able to pen every shot. 

 

If it's a same tier tank and it's only a 70% chance to pen, I'd say that is not a proper weakspot. 



Fawlty_Turrets #52 Posted 29 May 2020 - 03:52 PM

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View PostMaschinenkanone, on 28 May 2020 - 12:33 PM, said:

I dont buy the claim that "all ammo we see in tier8 & 10 battles is prem ammo".

Me neither, the very few tier x games I've played have only seen about 75% prem spam. SOME people use normal rounds.



MrKrotchy #53 Posted 29 May 2020 - 04:37 PM

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Love this argument "But he would've penned your CDC with AP anyway" totally neglecting the fact that his APCR travels 200m/s faster which means if you're gunning for cover he has extra half a second to aim at you giving him higher chance to even hit you. Prammo isn't just better pen, it's better everything basically. Bourassque is even better, it's just better ammo, faster AND +50 pen with 0 ingame downsides.

 

"HEAT is stopped by spaced armor", Sure the low tier 150mm HEAT. The 300+ pen HEAT has so much raw pen that unless you're shooting at an angled heavy in the tracks or gun (which AP wouldn't go through anyway 95% of the time) it's gonna go through. I can count on my left hand the amount of times HEAT failed me in the last year, compared to the amount of times it just cheesed armor it's negligible. Oh and it also loses 0 pen over distance as the icing on the cake.

 

"B-but Bobject XYZ/Maus/Type" Nerf the armor on those 10 overarmored tanks and be done with it instead of using it as a poor excuse for keeping the current p2wammo.

 

"Hey it's not P2W, anyone can have it" Suuure, if you really loooove grinding 10 tier 5 games in a row so you can fund your 1 tier 10 game with competitive loadout. 60k for the consumables (which is an issue too) +5k per shot. Totally not pay to win, no siree, look at me having 50 million with 20 premium tanks and 400 days of premium left.

 

The ONLY tank that has balanced ammo loadout is SU100Y. You trade damage for pen and vice versa and it works perfectly fine. You did it right once WG, why is it so hard to do it again?

 

 



NUKLEAR_SLUG #54 Posted 29 May 2020 - 07:10 PM

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View PostMrKrotchy, on 29 May 2020 - 04:37 PM, said:

The ONLY tank that has balanced ammo loadout is SU100Y. You trade damage for pen and vice versa and it works perfectly fine. You did it right once WG, why is it so hard to do it again?

 

In that case you forgot the also perfectly balanced FV215B-183 which you also trade damage for pen with and vice versa. :)



Galan7891 #55 Posted 29 May 2020 - 07:14 PM

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View PostMrKrotchy, on 29 May 2020 - 04:37 PM, said:

Love this argument "But he would've penned your CDC with AP anyway" totally neglecting the fact that his APCR travels 200m/s faster which means if you're gunning for cover he has extra half a second to aim at you giving him higher chance to even hit you. Prammo isn't just better pen, it's better everything basically. Bourassque is even better, it's just better ammo, faster AND +50 pen with 0 ingame downsides.

 

"HEAT is stopped by spaced armor", Sure the low tier 150mm HEAT. The 300+ pen HEAT has so much raw pen that unless you're shooting at an angled heavy in the tracks or gun (which AP wouldn't go through anyway 95% of the time) it's gonna go through. I can count on my left hand the amount of times HEAT failed me in the last year, compared to the amount of times it just cheesed armor it's negligible. Oh and it also loses 0 pen over distance as the icing on the cake.

 

"B-but Bobject XYZ/Maus/Type" Nerf the armor on those 10 overarmored tanks and be done with it instead of using it as a poor excuse for keeping the current p2wammo.

 

"Hey it's not P2W, anyone can have it" Suuure, if you really loooove grinding 10 tier 5 games in a row so you can fund your 1 tier 10 game with competitive loadout. 60k for the consumables (which is an issue too) +5k per shot. Totally not pay to win, no siree, look at me having 50 million with 20 premium tanks and 400 days of premium left.

 

The ONLY tank that has balanced ammo loadout is SU100Y. You trade damage for pen and vice versa and it works perfectly fine. You did it right once WG, why is it so hard to do it again?

 

 

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 29 May 2020 - 07:10 PM, said:

 

In that case you forgot the also perfectly balanced FV215B-183 which you also trade damage for pen with and vice versa. :)


Yeah no i prefer having to deal with a gold spamming chieftain than a FV.



MrKrotchy #56 Posted 29 May 2020 - 07:41 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 29 May 2020 - 07:10 PM, said:

 

In that case you forgot the also perfectly balanced FV215B-183 which you also trade damage for pen with and vice versa. :)

 

But it's not balanced. In its current state HESH is just better HE (ever seen anyone fire regular HE from it?), it has more pen and no downsides ergo it's also p2w ammo. If it for eg. had horrible splash so a non pen would do MAX 300 damage then yeah, you'd have a trade of, better splash or pen.



BravelyRanAway #57 Posted 29 May 2020 - 07:55 PM

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View PostMrKrotchy, on 29 May 2020 - 06:41 PM, said:

 ergo it's also p2w ammo. 

How much cash do people spend on it?:ohmy:



MrKrotchy #58 Posted 29 May 2020 - 08:01 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 29 May 2020 - 07:55 PM, said:

How much cash do people spend on it?:ohmy:

Depends how much premium days/premium tanks they bought. 

 

Ofcourse you're welcome to sell all your premiums and let your premium expire then show me how long can you play with full gold on a standard account with those tasty -100k games



Ragoutrabbit #59 Posted 29 May 2020 - 08:12 PM

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Pay to win game what do you expect?

BravelyRanAway #60 Posted 29 May 2020 - 08:15 PM

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View PostMrKrotchy, on 29 May 2020 - 07:01 PM, said:

Ofcourse you're welcome to sell all your premiums and let your premium expire then show me how long can you play with full gold on a standard account with those tasty -100k games

Why would I? I don't play with a full gold lay out even with premium, I don't know anyone that does. I don't use it on my alt which is F2P.....nice hyperbole though.






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