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balance match making problems RNG

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Bacarchi #1 Posted 10 June 2020 - 04:59 PM

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Hello. considering I'm playing this game since 2014, I have to admit I've never had so bad experiences sicnce then, and considering I'm not very often posting on forum, decided to make a bit longer review from my point of view. There are few fundamental problems which really didn't exist or were so less effective in earlier days of game. I will divide biggest problems and their solutions, therefore you won't say I am only cirticising game :)

 

First:    Match-making and RNG

So called MM is one of oldest questionable things. When it was announced, I was strongly against 3-5-7 match making. This is where lot of 5 minute battles come from, because 45% are lowest tier, while game mostly depends on first 3 players which have much larger impact in game. Before, when I was starting game and didn't have much knowledge about game, I didn't find totally randomised +/- 4 MM very bad. Sometimes you would be only tier 6 in game with 8's and sometimes you could be only 9 tier with tiers 6 and 7. It could happen to anyone and people were used to that. Also most of people have their max xp per game fom back in the days, because now when fighting +/-2 or 3 it's much harder to earn that experience than fighting against tier 9's. Other massive, massive issue are losing/wining streaks. It is not secret any more that match making favorites selective group of players over period of time, and after certain time it switches to other group. This ain't some conspiracy theory, but lot of researches have been made questioning randomising in-game (you can find it on forum too) When we're talking about RNG, I have nothing against it as an idea if it would work same for everyone. Problem is RNG gives massive opportunity to game creators to totally manipulate it in somebody's favour. If you don't believe me in this part, make a research by your own. Monitor your MM over selected number of battles, and compare it to some top-streamer's and you will see what I'm talking about. To shorten everything up, I can tell you little secret if you wan't to have better victory rate. When you feel MM is putting you in those fast-losing games constantly, after the battle ask someone from enemy team to invite you to platoon. In that case you will switch to his favoritised group and match making. My friend is currently testing it (FC in very good clan) and with practically same stats as mine, he has 62,5% win ratio while I got 58 overall after selected period of time. This is also easily recordable thing, and I'd be happy if somebody would be willing to do that kind of test for themselves and share it with community.     

 

Second:   Premium, Pay2win and unbalanced tanks

It it obvius that WG is afraid. They are afraid of opinion of 2000-3000 best players out there, and are willing to ruin everything to 98% of all other active, semi-active or new players which are having hardest time playing the game. Here I am focusing on Defenders, EBR's, 279's, 907's, Cheftains and similar game-breaking tanks. WG is digging deeper and deeper hole for themselves, and planning to balance absolutely all tanks, but not those few which they should. Imagine if someone in 2014 said that there would be tanks totally unpenetratable from anywhere frontally...I simply wouldn't believe that:D I understand it's massive company and need to give salaries to 4500 employees, but making so unbalanced premium tanks is just like shooting yourself in healhy leg lol.  Also WG can say game ain't Pay2win..and it's not. It's even worse - it's pay2play. Imagine not being in clan which gives credit boosts or not having premium time while wanting to play 9 and 10 tier. (didn't even mention food which costs 20k per battle) That is mission impossible even for experienced players.

 

Third: 5 minute blitz battles

Same as Pay2win. Wg member said it's not big problem. Well - it is. It is just result of poor tank balancing combined with 3-5-7 MM. This problem even put artillery like some micro problem compared to this. There is nothing good with it, and I advice them to open their eyes bit better. It feels like most of WG stuff never actually played their own game.

 

Conclusion:

I know there are other problems, like artillery, bugs and similar, bu ain't so important and impactfull like those three I've mentioned up there. I believe player's don't want to be treated like that any more. While some days having 30% victories and some days 70% with same playstyle,  I feel it is just not possible to make impact as before, but one player depends on RNG much much more. I'm really not interested in rigging match making in order to have more victories like lot of other guys are doing it, just in order to have fun again. I probably won't play the game, except doing these testings to proove what I claim from first hand. I might even share it on YouTube later, but it will take some time. I'd like to hear your opinion on his one.  



Kdingo #2 Posted 10 June 2020 - 05:07 PM

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I just had this wonderful person in his borat tanks as top tier, imo him/the likes of him are a far bigger problem then anything else:

Spoiler

I mean i get it he buys prem tanks... but a person with this level of play shouldn´t be allowed to ever be part of a team or at the very very least never be top tier.



UserZer00 #3 Posted 10 June 2020 - 05:14 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 10 June 2020 - 05:07 PM, said:

I just had this wonderful person in his borat tanks as top tier, imo him/the likes of him are a far bigger problem then anything else:

Spoiler

I mean i get it he buys prem tanks... but a person with this level of play shouldn´t be allowed to ever be part of a team or at the very very least never be top tier.

 

This is why I think they should split the MM into two or three tiers based on something as simple as WR or personal rating.  Sure this would mean longer wait times, but it would be a big step towards matching people against like skilled people.

 

There would also be people constantly switching between different levels as they get overmatched if they get grouped with the next level or they themselves are slightly OPd when playing on the lower level.

 

Maybe make is so you can select a specific tier, but have it so the game will only allow it for a limited number of matches, etc based on the player performance.  This would give people a chance to see if they have improved enough or not, play with their friends, etc.

 

Is it well thought out, with all the details?  No, but they have to try something (but they probably won't be doing that any time soon).



_Anarchistic_ #4 Posted 10 June 2020 - 05:14 PM

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View PostBacarchi, on 10 June 2020 - 04:59 PM, said:

Hello. considering I'm playing this game since 2014, I have to admit I've never had so bad experiences sicnce then, and considering I'm not very often posting on forum, decided to make a bit longer review from my point of view. There are few fundamental problems which really didn't exist or were so less effective in earlier days of game. I will divide biggest problems and their solutions, therefore you won't say I am only cirticising game :)

 

First:    Match-making and RNG

So called MM is one of oldest questionable things. When it was announced, I was strongly against 3-5-7 match making. This is where lot of 5 minute battles come from, because 45% are lowest tier, while game mostly depends on first 3 players which have much larger impact in game. Before, when I was starting game and didn't have much knowledge about game, I didn't find totally randomised +/- 4 MM very bad. Sometimes you would be only tier 6 in game with 8's and sometimes you could be only 9 tier with tiers 6 and 7. It could happen to anyone and people were used to that. Also most of people have their max xp per game fom back in the days, because now when fighting +/-2 or 3 it's much harder to earn that experience than fighting against tier 9's. Other massive, massive issue are losing/wining streaks. It is not secret any more that match making favorites selective group of players over period of time, and after certain time it switches to other group. This ain't some conspiracy theory, but lot of researches have been made questioning randomising in-game (you can find it on forum too) When we're talking about RNG, I have nothing against it as an idea if it would work same for everyone. Problem is RNG gives massive opportunity to game creators to totally manipulate it in somebody's favour. If you don't believe me in this part, make a research by your own. Monitor your MM over selected number of battles, and compare it to some top-streamer's and you will see what I'm talking about. To shorten everything up, I can tell you little secret if you wan't to have better victory rate. When you feel MM is putting you in those fast-losing games constantly, after the battle ask someone from enemy team to invite you to platoon. In that case you will switch to his favoritised group and match making. My friend is currently testing it (FC in very good clan) and with practically same stats as mine, he has 62,5% win ratio while I got 58 overall after selected period of time. This is also easily recordable thing, and I'd be happy if somebody would be willing to do that kind of test for themselves and share it with community.     

 

Second:   Premium, Pay2win and unbalanced tanks

It it obvius that WG is afraid. They are afraid of opinion of 2000-3000 best players out there, and are willing to ruin everything to 98% of all other active, semi-active or new players which are having hardest time playing the game. Here I am focusing on Defenders, EBR's, 279's, 907's, Cheftains and similar game-breaking tanks. WG is digging deeper and deeper hole for themselves, and planning to balance absolutely all tanks, but not those few which they should. Imagine if someone in 2014 said that there would be tanks totally unpenetratable from anywhere frontally...I simply wouldn't believe that:D I understand it's massive company and need to give salaries to 4500 employees, but making so unbalanced premium tanks is just like shooting yourself in healhy leg lol.  Also WG can say game ain't Pay2win..and it's not. It's even worse - it's pay2play. Imagine not being in clan which gives credit boosts or not having premium time while wanting to play 9 and 10 tier. (didn't even mention food which costs 20k per battle) That is mission impossible even for experienced players.

 

Third: 5 minute blitz battles

Same as Pay2win. Wg member said it's not big problem. Well - it is. It is just result of poor tank balancing combined with 3-5-7 MM. This problem even put artillery like some micro problem compared to this. There is nothing good with it, and I advice them to open their eyes bit better. It feels like most of WG stuff never actually played their own game.

 

Conclusion:

I know there are other problems, like artillery, bugs and similar, bu ain't so important and impactfull like those three I've mentioned up there. I believe player's don't want to be treated like that any more. While some days having 30% victories and some days 70% with same playstyle,  I feel it is just not possible to make impact as before, but one player depends on RNG much much more. I'm really not interested in rigging match making in order to have more victories like lot of other guys are doing it, just in order to have fun again. I probably won't play the game, except doing these testings to proove what I claim from first hand. I might even share it on YouTube later, but it will take some time. I'd like to hear your opinion on his one.  

 

The MM has trashed the game and WG are just tying themselves in knots trying to make it work and some of the excuses like blaming pref MM tanks have been laughable.  How WG can come out with such blatant trash is beyond me.

add in arty stun, 1.0 map changes and its been 3 years of hell

 



Balc0ra #5 Posted 10 June 2020 - 05:15 PM

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MM is in a better place then it was, or has been. Before you joined +5 was even a thing. 3-5-7 was indeed terrible. But now we have more +0 or +1 games vs 2. And I suspect most minds that less. Inc me. Sure MM has room for improvements. But compared to the last 8 years. You can't say it's worse. It's actually somewhat better. If 3-5-7 did not force you to leave back then. I don't think much else will later or now.  And if you think MM plays favorites. Then you might as well leave now. Because MM won't improve if you have mindset already. And your friend did tests? Unless he had the same tank, same MM weight, pressed battle 100% at the same time. You won't even be close to the same. And even then there are variables for that to be... proof tbh.

 

As for premium p2w? I mean Defender is broken, we all know that. But even so, Steve won't get a 70% WR in it. It's an extremely forgiving tank, and overall stronger than the IS-3. But it still won't get him past 48% base tbh. So I won't call flat out p2w... as there is a difference vs that and broken.

 

And if 5 min matches are too short. Then what difference will a 7 min or 8 min match do that's the average? And most 15 min matches you fire your gun less, and sit still and wait longer vs fighting constantly unlike a 5 min game. As if you want longer matches. You won't ever find that here as long as the maps are the size they are now. Then FL or that other game might be more your thing. As if every match was 15 min long here. I suspect I would not have been as long as I have been. As I want the more fast-paced action, vs a slower waiting one. And again, my wot replay manage for the past 600 games have set the average match at 8.1 min. Not many of them are 5 min or less on my end to rage about it.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Balc0ra, 10 June 2020 - 05:18 PM.


Private_Miros #6 Posted 10 June 2020 - 05:18 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 10 June 2020 - 04:07 PM, said:

I just had this wonderful person in his borat tanks as top tier, imo him/the likes of him are a far bigger problem then anything else:

 

:ohmy: despite similarities this beats the 9k all premium tanks account with 240 damage per game for tier 7.4 that I have flagged in my archive as best example of pay2lose.

 

(Sent you a message in-game about it)



saxsan4 #7 Posted 10 June 2020 - 05:23 PM

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All the issues are because they won't have +1/-1 mm

 

if games were 5 top tier 10 tier below or 15 same tier tanks all the games issues would be solved



the_nebuchadnezzar #8 Posted 10 June 2020 - 05:34 PM

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Short answer: cause of the EBR's. With those clown cars into the game all strategies are off the window. So everything turns into: hit the flying F1... just like duck hunt games from 20 years ago. This affects also the speed of the battles so this is why you get 3 minutes games 90% of the time. IMO, putting wv into the game was the worst decisions WG ever got. And that speck volume...



_Anarchistic_ #9 Posted 10 June 2020 - 05:45 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 10 June 2020 - 05:15 PM, said:

MM is in a better place then it was, or has been. Before you joined +5 was even a thing. 3-5-7 was indeed terrible. But now we have more +0 or +1 games vs 2. And I suspect most minds that less. Inc me. Sure MM has room for improvements. But compared to the last 8 years. You can't say it's worse. It's actually somewhat better. If 3-5-7 did not force you to leave back then. I don't think much else will later or now.  And if you think MM plays favorites. Then you might as well leave now. Because MM won't improve if you have mindset already. And your friend did tests? Unless he had the same tank, same MM weight, pressed battle 100% at the same time. You won't even be close to the same. And even then there are variables for that to be... proof tbh.

 

As for premium p2w? I mean Defender is broken, we all know that. But even so, Steve won't get a 70% WR in it. It's an extremely forgiving tank, and overall stronger than the IS-3. But it still won't get him past 48% base tbh. So I won't call flat out p2w... as there is a difference vs that and broken.

 

And if 5 min matches are too short. Then what difference will a 7 min or 8 min match do that's the average? And most 15 min matches you fire your gun less, and sit still and wait longer vs fighting constantly unlike a 5 min game. As if you want longer matches. You won't ever find that here as long as the maps are the size they are now. Then FL or that other game might be more your thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

cant agree about the MM, its totally ruined the game

 

first it's royally ruined the tier spreads, leaving so many games bottom tier.  WG tried to blame this on pref MM tanks but that was clearly trash.

then they add loads of premium tier 8s, lots of marathons to boost tier 8 numbers, this in turn has trashed tiers 6 and 7 (i am currently playing t29, t71, comet and have had 1 top tier game in last 10 days) so WG remove the low tier tanks to force players more quickly to tier 5 to pad the numbers.  this itself is a bad idea as low tiers were where you learn to play the game.

but of course you cant play low tiers anymore because of the map changes which have trashed spotting, so low tier bush camping tds clean up every game making it unplayable.

Then there is game balance, the new MM matches types of tank  verses each other, but this is wrong.  You need to balance tanks by their tier to achieve a balanced game so a 140/grille/maus/ebr can all play equally with their own pros and cons.  by removing this mechanic and balancing WV vs WV, MAus v Super heavy etc you have broken the balancing system and added useless complication, doing this has been bad for the game and the system is failing

likewise complaints about in game balance, for example Leo vs Maus on Himmelsdorf are not things that should be balanced in the MM, they are map issues and player skill issues. Again, this is making the game worse not better allowing map issues to be ignored rather than fixed.

 

remove the MM and go back to pre template free for all, better games, better balance


Edited by _Anarchistic_, 10 June 2020 - 05:46 PM.


ONE77ZERO13 #10 Posted 10 June 2020 - 05:55 PM

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View Postthe_nebuchadnezzar, on 10 June 2020 - 05:34 PM, said:

Short answer: cause of the EBR's. With those clown cars into the game all strategies are off the window. So everything turns into: hit the flying F1... just like duck hunt games from 20 years ago. This affects also the speed of the battles so this is why you get 3 minutes games 90% of the time. IMO, putting wv into the game was the worst decisions WG ever got. And that speck volume...

 

yes EBR are the cause of a problem that was around before EBRs existed.

 

i like your thinking.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #11 Posted 10 June 2020 - 05:59 PM

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View PostBacarchi, on 10 June 2020 - 04:59 PM, said:

Other massive, massive issue are losing/wining streaks. It is not secret any more that match making favorites selective group of players over period of time, and after certain time it switches to other group. This ain't some conspiracy theory, but lot of researches have been made questioning randomising in-game (you can find it on forum too) 

 

The only forum threads that contain anything that could be even close to described as 'research':

 

http://forum.worldof...-about-the-mm/ 

 

... have only ever shown there to be no indicators of rigging and the RNG component of the game to be as random as it could be expected to be.

 

If however you're referring to a bunch of people claiming that MM and WG are conspiring against them then no, whining that their WR is not as good as they feel they deserve does not constitute 'research'. 



wsatnutter #12 Posted 10 June 2020 - 06:07 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 10 June 2020 - 04:59 PM, said:

 

The only forum threads that contain anything that could be even close to described as 'research':

 

http://forum.worldof...s-about-the-mm/

 

... have only ever shown there to be no indicators of rigging and the RNG component of the game to be as random as it could be expected to be.

 

If however you're referring to a bunch of people claiming that MM and WG are conspiring against them then no, whining that their WR is not as good as they feel they deserve does not constitute 'research'.

just this



___Torpex___ #13 Posted 10 June 2020 - 06:07 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 10 June 2020 - 04:07 PM, said:

I just had this wonderful person in his borat tanks as top tier, imo him/the likes of him are a far bigger problem then anything else:

Spoiler

I mean i get it he buys prem tanks... but a person with this level of play shouldn´t be allowed to ever be part of a team or at the very very least never be top tier.

 

Yep, same as this one? Or the infamous Hummel BOT ?

Game ruined for 14 others... over and over again. And no (re)action from WG.

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ShimmerUK #14 Posted 10 June 2020 - 06:59 PM

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Sigh OK, I gonna mention something While I've not had many battles in recent years because the game for me at least died long ago.

 

Back in Beta testing, this game was way different and the MM then was way worse you would get tier VI vs Tier X so just plain unfair.

 

There where even OP tanks then like the Tier IX IS-4 could take on tier X like the Maus and was still a tier IX when the E-100 came out.

 

Armour mattered then I would say heavy tanks where effective at there role soaking up damage quite often you end up with a heavy tank line with a slow slog for many this was to RNG as heavy armour even aiming for weak points depending on your tank could be hard Tiger II with it accurate guns and for the time good AP pen I would argue was King but it had huge weaknesses like setting on fire if the lower plate was penned and side armour penning would lead to ammo racking often and even things like driver hatches or capulo would lead to crew damage as well as being weaker armour so were good places to aim.

 

There was still Premium ammo that could on be brought for gold so this was a P2W mechanic you would hardly ever get people firing at the thick flat mallet or Frontal armour of a Tiger or Tiger II because most the time you would not pen unless you used Premium and while you could not see what ammo that is fired at you like you can now be easy to work out and you knew they were paying to win.

 

The biggest change and for me game-breaking change happened when Premium ammo was made available for everyone suddenly especially at tier 8 and up Gold Ammo was started being fired like candy overmatching most armour so heavy tanks in my eye's have started to fall down the pecking order or gone into a more main battle tank type no longer Heavy really.

 

On this one change, everything in WOT gameplay started to change Weak point's gradually faded out because they know that 50%+ every game of ammo in higher tier will be the Premium ammo round newer tanks being introduced with higher and higher armour value's some tank just plane having to be removed and a new one put in like the Super Conq that had a turret with spaced armour as HEAT rounds are commonplace and Spaced armour being the best defence.

 

MAUS insane armour but most good players will just see it as an easy Damage boosting targeted slow nice flat armour perfect for HEAT or APCR angle best as you can but soon as you look to fire expect 2-3 shell going straight through your nice gun mantlet.

 

Now The kings are Medium, Light tanks with there auto loaders low profiles and quite often rounded turrets and angled armour and TD are the only exceptions that have managed to stay effective throughout WT because they had higher Pen, to begin with, and have been given much love some broken like the WT-E100 I remember when that was first put in-game and on day one I had a MAUS out 6s later it was dead from one clip.

 

I could go on but I going to sum it up now Premium ammo killed this game because it forced the game to react to it and it started as a P2W and every new tank has had to be added with this ammo in mind so now you get daft tanks with no weak points or older tanks weak point just removed in an attempt to balance against this ammo and now it hard to change the way this ammo works because it would then leave huge chunks of OP tanks that would all need to be re-modelled to rebalance the game and this would mean a lot of work and that is the real reason why it was scrapped in my eye's that it was to much work. 

 

Of course, Premium consumables and even new bonds systems are just as bad I mean Tea,Choc combine with Improved Vents then a Vent boost bond is like a 20% increase to vech stats and I see the EBR mentioned a lot personally wheel vehicles, in general, should be removed its world of tanks so do not belong in the game because or it would take is for you to shoot it wheels and it would be dead but there indestructible in this game u can't track them just plain daft.

 

I've seen the planned changes to the Eqip loadout while nice I don't see it changing anything for most tanks it saddens me and many other I would say older tankers what this game is I am not saying it's a terrible game but for me, it's no longer WOT and while I pop in on occasion norm at tier VI in my Tiger 131 No longer play my Tiger II was my most played I sometimes think they should swap the LOWE and Tiger II around as LOWE is a better tank but even at tier 6 I'll see 30-40% Premium ammo fired now for no reason really.


Edited by ShimmerUK, 10 June 2020 - 07:00 PM.


Private_Miros #15 Posted 10 June 2020 - 07:07 PM

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View PostShimmerUK, on 10 June 2020 - 05:59 PM, said:

Sigh

 

Tiger and King Tiger armor could always been easily penetrated with normal ammo.

 

Mediums were always the better and more flexible tanks. If anything, recent developments have made heavy tanks more meta, not less. Fast (and therefor) flexible heavies and heavily armored mediums are king.

 

 



kaneloon #16 Posted 10 June 2020 - 07:12 PM

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View PostBacarchi, on 10 June 2020 - 03:59 PM, said:

Monitor your MM over selected number of battles, and compare it to some top-streamer's and you will see what I'm talking about. 

 

You don't even have to monitor your battles, you just KNOW their MM is fake.

I remember asking one of them after some battles (between 5 and 10) if the tank he played had a preferencial MM ...

Answer was no ...



Private_Miros #17 Posted 10 June 2020 - 07:17 PM

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View PostBacarchi, on 10 June 2020 - 03:59 PM, said:

Monitor your MM over selected number of battles, and compare it to some top-streamer's and you will see what I'm talking about. To shorten everything up, I can tell you little secret if you wan't to have better victory rate. When you feel MM is putting you in those fast-losing games constantly, after the battle ask someone from enemy team to invite you to platoon. In that case you will switch to his favoritised group and match making. My friend is currently testing it (FC in very good clan) and with practically same stats as mine, he has 62,5% win ratio while I got 58 overall after selected period of time. This is also easily recordable thing, and I'd be happy if somebody would be willing to do that kind of test for themselves and share it with community.      

 

I missed this initially.

 

This is hilarious.

 

It also helps to grease up and flip around on the floor yelling I am a fish before each session. I will guarantee you will be in the favored group of match making an equal amount of times.



Kdingo #18 Posted 10 June 2020 - 07:19 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 10 June 2020 - 07:17 PM, said:

 

It also helps to grease up and flip around on the floor yelling I am a fish before each session. I will guarantee you will be in the favored group of match making an equal amount of times.

 

Stopped playing as today the games have just been a nightmare, wins, losses didn´t matter such a weird meta going on it wasn´t even fun anymore.

If i would have known this trick prior i might have had more fun... well tomorrow is another day... time to prepare the grease.



UserZer00 #19 Posted 10 June 2020 - 07:21 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 10 June 2020 - 07:17 PM, said:

 

I missed this initially.

 

This is hilarious.

 

It also helps to grease up and flip around on the floor yelling I am a fish before each session. I will guarantee you will be in the favored group of match making an equal amount of times.

 

Are you sure it's "I am a fish"?  I heard you had to yell "I am but a worm".

 

I'd hate to know that I've been doing it wrong for the last 5 years.



evilchaosmonkey #20 Posted 10 June 2020 - 07:21 PM

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    05-04-2013

View PostPrivate_Miros, on 10 June 2020 - 06:17 PM, said:

 

It also helps to grease up and flip around on the floor yelling I am a fish before each session. I will guarantee you will be in the favored group of match making an equal amount of times.

 

Roger that.  Will  give it a go, adding extra grease just to be sure I get the flip to effort ratio high.  Will post photos to show how well this works.....

Unicum status here I come!







Also tagged with balance, match making, problems, RNG

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